Will Brienne play a big role in TWOW?

[sapphire_lion]

I promised myself I wouldn't reply to you but pretty much all of the above examples are prophecies from the Ghost of High Heart, who is supposed to be this woman who possesses some kind of magical/mystical powers. So it makes sense why the prophecies she sees are so literal, while Jaime who's just a normal person.......

The chapter where Arya hears these prophecies is right before the chapter where Jaime has his weirwood dream. Both the Ghost of High Heart and Jaime have prophetic dreams because they slept on the stump of a weirwood tree. That’s not a coincidence. GRRM set it up that way. There is an intentional link between the dreams the Ghost of High Heart had and the dream Jaime had. So far much of Jaime's dream has been as literal as the Ghost of High Heart's dream. (Jaime saves Brienne from the bear pit. Tywin gives Jaime a sword. Joffrey dies. Jaime gives Brienne a sword. Tywin dies. Jaime and Cersei go their separate ways.)

considering the weirwood dream also has the ghosts of Jaime's KG brothers and Raeghar, I think its mean to be a metaphorical weirwood dream, but you'll obviously disagree rme

Of course there are metaphorical elements in the dreams, but they foretell actual events that will come to pass. Jaime is not going to run into Rhaegar and his KG brothers, but he will be judged for his past actions and Brienne will be there to fight by his side.

[unitron]

Nah. He's just going to chip away at her idealism and make her a much grayer character.

Also, GRRM disfigured Brienne. You don't disfigure a character and then kill them off a few chapters later. You disfigure them and explore how the disfigurement will affect their life.

Qyburn tells her he's developed a new technique called "reconstructive surgery", and the next thing you know--Briennenstein.

[larastone]

The chapter where Arya hears these prophecies is right before the chapter where Jaime has his weirwood dream. Both the Ghost of High Heart and Jaime have prophetic dreams because they slept on the stump of a weirwood tree. That’s not a coincidence. GRRM set it up that way. There is an intentional link between the dreams the Ghost of High Heart had and the dream Jaime had. So far much of Jaime's dream has been as literal as the Ghost of High Heart's dream. (Jaime saves Brienne from the bear pit. Tywin gives Jaime a sword. Joffrey dies. Jaime gives Brienne a sword. Tywin dies. Jaime and Cersei go their separate ways.)

Of course there are metaphorical elements in the dreams, but they foretell actual events that will come to pass. Jaime is not going to run into Rhaegar and his KG brothers, but he will be judged for his past actions and Brienne will be there to fight by his side.

but i never disagreed that its prophetic???? i'm just saying that i dont think it foreshadows anything past ASOS. jaime saving her from the bear, tywin giving jaime the sword, tywin dying, joffrey dying, jaime/cersei breakup, jaime giving oathkeeper to brienne, are all ASOS events. so i'm not seeing where i'm wrong lmao. of course weirwood dreams are going to be prophetic and but the Ghost of High Heart's dreams are more literal because she's actually a magical/mystical person like Jaime.

[sapphire_lion]

the lines show jaime's emotions of growing respect and attraction for brienne imo which does happen in ASOS.

The lines show Jaime consciously altering his opinion of Brienne's looks (something he has yet to do in the books).

its supposed to be a metaphorical dream imo, compared to ghost of high heart's prophecies. I mean in one of the ghost of high heart's prophecy, Renly's death is CLEARLY foreshadowed while Tywin and Joffrey's deaths aren't CLEARLY foreshdowed in Jaime's dream, unlike the Ghost of High Heart with Renly, :

Jaime doesn't dream of Joffrey getting poisoned by wine or Tywin getting shot by a crossbow. They're dark figures that leave him.....which is metaphorically foreshadowing their death and not literally the ghost of high heart's visions.

The Ghost didn't see Joffrey get poisoned either. She saw Sansa with snakes in her hair. The snakes symbolize the poison.

The Ghost didn't see Renly being killed. She saw a stag getting butchered. There is a metaphorical element in that too. Renly is not literally a stag. The stag merely represents Renly.

IMO, Joffrey, Tywin, and Cersei going off to join their ancestors is an equally straightforward metaphor. Most cultures believe that people join their ancestors when they die. The symbolism is pretty much universal.

The important thing to note is that the metaphorical elements in the dream foreshadowed actual, literal events.

[larastone]

The lines show Jaime consciously altering his opinion of Brienne's looks (something he has yet to do in the books).

The Ghost didn't see Joffrey get poisoned either. She saw Sansa with snakes in her hair. The snakes symbolize the poison.

The Ghost didn't see Renly being killed. She saw a stag getting butchered. There is a metaphorical element in that too. Renly is not literally a stag. The stag merely represents Renly.

IMO, Joffrey, Tywin, and Cersei going off to join their ancestors is an equally straightforward metaphor. Most cultures believe that people join their ancestors when they die. The symbolism is pretty much universal.

The important thing to note is that the metaphorical elements in the dream foreshadowed actual, literal events.

i asked you to move on jfc. my interpretation is that it foreshadows all ASOS events (and I'm not wrong at all), yours aren't.ok i get it, but you need to deal with my opinion and stop.

this is why i don't like replying to you and hate it when you reply to me.

[sapphire_lion]

but i never disagreed that its prophetic????

I never claimed that you did.

i'm just saying that i dont think it foreshadows anything past ASOS. jaime saving her from the bear, tywin giving jaime the sword, tywin dying, joffrey dying, jaime/cersei breakup, jaime giving oathkeeper to brienne, are all ASOS events. so i'm not seeing where i'm wrong lmao.

Jaime and Cersei didn't physically go their separate ways until AFFC (which is what the dream showed).

of course weirwood dreams are going to be prophetic and but the Ghost of High Heart's dreams are more literal because she's actually a magical/mystical person like Jaime.

Both dreams have been pretty literal so far. Weirwood trees can show people the past, present, and future.

[sapphire_lion]

i asked you to move on jfc. my interpretation is that it foreshadows all ASOS events (and I'm not wrong at all), yours aren't.ok i get it, but you need to deal with my opinion and stop.

this is why i don't like replying to you and hate it when you reply to me.

I have no problem with your opinion. There is nothing for me to "deal with". I am merely expressing my views on the matter and sharing them on this forum. You can disagree or ignore me as you please.

Love the bold part. Brilliant argumentation.

[Duke-of-Kaisa]

What if Brienne "kills the kingslayer" without killing Jaime? She is not disobeying lady stone heart if she protects Jaime and makes everyone realise that the Kingslayer is essentially dead and in his place stands Jaime Goldhand, a better man who is not as superficial, is much more humble and who truly wants to protect the realm and it's people.

[larastone]

I have no problem with your opinion. There is nothing for me to "deal with". I am merely expressing my views on the matter and sharing them on this forum. You can disagree or ignore me as you please.

Love the bold part. Brilliant argumentation.

when i said "your's aren't" i meant that you don't agree that it only foreshadows ASOS events, not that you're actually wrong. its just different interpretations.

its not about you just expressing your opinion, its that you don't move on lol. but whatever, i'm going to sleep now so whatever.

[sapphire_lion]

That may be true - but Beric was starting to feel less of himself and he had been resurrected multiple times. Lady Stoneheart is a shell of her former self, but had been dead THREE DAYS. If Thoros gives Brienne the "kiss of life" immediately after she dies, maybe she wouldn't lose much of herself?

She would still lose something and the narrative would be completely compromised. There would never be any certainty on whether her ideals changed because of the tests she faced or because of what she lost of herself during her death and resurrection. The reader would not be able to see where Brienne was by the end, because she would be an inherently altered version of herself. She would be UnBrienne. Any moral evolution that occurred after her resurrection (if that is even possible) would be UnBrienne's journey.

ETA: Unless Brienne is supposed to be the Westerosi Jesus I don't see the point for killing her and then resurrecting her to be exactly as she was.

[sapphire_lion]

when i said "your's aren't" i meant that you don't agree that it only foreshadows ASOS events, not that you're actually wrong. its just different interpretations.

its not about you just expressing your opinion, its that you don't move on lol. but whatever, i'm going to sleep now so whatever.

This is a forum where people discuss their opinions. I'm interested in this topic and enjoy discussing it. I do not wish to move on.

[EddardsHead]

I certainly hope not, I could do without eight chapters of aimlessly wandering around Westeros again.

[sapphire_lion]

I certainly hope not, I could do without eight chapters of aimlessly wandering around Westeros again.

Perhaps it wasn't as aimless as you think. GRRM was setting up a lot of things in Brienne's chapters. Plus, the Brienne, Jaime, and Stoneheart conflict should have everyone on the edge of their seats. I'm looking forward to it at least.

What if Brienne "kills the kingslayer" without killing Jaime? She is not disobeying lady stone heart if she protects Jaime and makes everyone realise that the Kingslayer is essentially dead and in his place stands Jaime Goldhand, a better man who is not as superficial, is much more humble and who truly wants to protect the realm and it's people.

Is the Kingslayer going to die in the same sense that the Hound did? That would be interesting... but I don't see Stoneheart accepting it.

[Duke-of-Kaisa]

With regards to the dream of Rhaegar and co. I wonder if this foreshadows a confrontation he may have (with Dany?) him trying to explain the reasoning behind his betrayal of Aerys. Brienne is his protector and I wonder if the flaming sword is also reference to her faith in him, her belief in him, love of him. She is the only one who can see past the "kingslaying" and she is the only one that can convince others that he has paid dearly for being an oath breaker and is redeeming himself and worthy of trust. She will shield him from darkness and be his knight in shining armor, who saves him from himself and brings light back into his life... Haha, that's a bit cheesy, but hey, why not?

[sapphire_lion]

With regards to the dream of Rhaegar and co. I wonder if this foreshadows a confrontation he may have (with Dany?) him trying to explain the reasoning behind his betrayal of Aerys. Brienne is his protector and I wonder if the flaming sword is also reference to her faith in him, her belief in him, love of him. She is the only one who can see past the "kingslaying" and she is the only one that can convince others that he has paid dearly for being an oath breaker and is redeeming himself and worthy of trust. She will shield him from darkness and be his knight in shining armor, who saves him from himself and brings light back into his life... Haha, that's a bit cheesy, but hey, why not?

I want to see a Dany vs. Jaime confrontation! I think it would be interesting/heart-breaking if Jaime was the one who told Dany the truth about her father and how she was conceived. If Dany tried Jaime for his crimes, I could see Brienne being his champion. Martin likes to hide clues in the dialog. I've always thought that Jaime calling Brienne his protector was meant to be foreshadowing.

[ChillyPolly]

I think she will too. It's been foreshadowed. She's not going to let anyone hurt him.

Qyburn: "What is this woman to you?"

Jaime: "My protector.

-ASOS

I swore to keep you safe, the wench said stubbornly. I swore an oath.

-ASOS

I swore an oath to keep him safe, she said to Rhaegars shade. I swore a holy oath.

-ASOS

Beric swore an oath to Arya that he would restore her to her mother. So when he finds her mother dead, he gives her the kiss of fire, after Thoros refuses.

Catelyn swore an oath that she would not keep Brienne from her vengeance against Stannis (her FIRST oath to take the sword and kill the Kingslayer). So after hanging her, she gives her the kiss of fire, or orders Thoros to do so.

Brienne swore an oath that she would keep Jaime safe. So after killing him, she gives him the kiss of fire, etc.

[SeanF]

I thought Brienne would sacrifice herself to save Jaime and Pod, but GRRM's quote suggests her story has some way to go.

[sapphire_lion]

Beric swore an oath to Arya that he would restore her to her mother. So when he finds her mother dead, he gives her the kiss of fire, after Thoros refuses.

Catelyn swore an oath that she would not keep Brienne from her vengeance against Stannis (her FIRST oath to take the sword and kill the Kingslayer). So after hanging her, she gives her the kiss of fire, or orders Thoros to do so.

Brienne swore an oath that she would keep Jaime safe. So after killing him, she gives him the kiss of fire, etc.

Catelyn already broke two oaths she made to Brienne. I doubt she cares about the oath she made regarding Stannis.

I don't see why GRRM would kill Jaime and Brienne only to bring them back immediately.

[Mithras]

1. She will save Jaime in the trial by combat against LS's champion.

2. The Oathkeeper will find its way to Jon's hands.

3. Jaime and Brienne will make a bastard.

4. To the end of the book, Brienne will be in the party to save Sansa from KL along with Arya, Pod, Sandor. They will get help from Jaime and save Sansa just before Jaime strangles Cersei but fails to stop the wildfire plot this time.

[Red Priest]

I hope not. She's even more boring and seemingly more pointless than the ironmen. I hope she POVs the prologue or the epilogue of AFFC...