GRRM is/has done a brilliant Job with The others.

[Black Crow]

I rather think that the Others being such a mystery is significant in itself.

There is an easy expectation that at some point the big bad is going to come bursting through the Wall; whole armies of wights and white walkers intent on killing everything that moves, like some kind of icy Dothraki horde

And therein lies the problem, because if that was what we were going to get there'd be no reason not to come across said Icy Dothraki horde even if all they are doing thus far is lurking with menaces. The fact that all we have seen across the course of five books is the odd fleeting glimpse and no more than six of them at any one time suggests that there's something far more sophisticated going on and a revelation rather than an army to worry about. The Craster's sons business points to a partial answer, but one that only hints at what's really going on.

[sj4iy]

Yes, it has "revealed" two things:

1) Confimed a theory about the nature of Craster's sacrifices. It was literally told to us in the story as well, but we might not have considered the source reliable as readers of the story.

2) Although this doesn't come from the show itself, they slipped up and summarized one character as "The Night's King". If true, this actually just raises further questions but could be a tiny morsel for us to chew on.

If you ask me, this is not really a whole lot to go on. I consider "The Others" to be just about as mysterious as ever.

We saw the Lands of Always Winter.

We saw that they have the ability to 'change' humans into White Walkers.

We saw that there is an apparent hierarchy.

We saw that there is a circle that they go into to perform this ritual.

I think we learned quite a lot in just a couple of minutes of screentime.

[UnmaskedLurker]

We saw the Lands of Always Winter.

We saw that they have the ability to 'change' humans into White Walkers.

We saw that there is an apparent hierarchy.

We saw that there is a circle that they go into to perform this ritual.

I think we learned quite a lot in just a couple of minutes of screentime.

While I agree that we learned these things--and they are interesting and confirming of things people suspected before (which is worthwhile in an of itself). But does it really give any insight into the future books? Specifically, do these additional clues about the Others help us to predict what the Others are really up to overall in the series? From a plot point of view, do we really know that much more than we knew before in terms of what the Others are going to do and what really motivates them?

[unitron]

Yes, but it's quite different. Jon Snow works for NCIS: Alaska.

I had an uncle that did that.

But back then it was either ONI or NIS

And I think he could see Russia from his house.

Seriously.

[unitron]

I rather think that the Others being such a mystery is significant in itself.

There is an easy expectation that at some point the big bad is going to come bursting through the Wall; whole armies of wights and white walkers intent on killing everything that moves, like some kind of icy Dothraki horde...

So frozen Dothraki not nearly as fun as frozen Daiquiri?

:D

[sj4iy]

While I agree that we learned these things--and they are interesting and confirming of things people suspected before (which is worthwhile in an of itself). But does it really give any insight into the future books? Specifically, do these additional clues about the Others help us to predict what the Others are really up to overall in the series? From a plot point of view, do we really know that much more than we knew before in terms of what the Others are going to do and what really motivates them?

As far as their motivations, no...but I think seeing how they are able to turn humans into themselves is a HUGE piece of information- and the fact that it might have been the Night's King who did it is also very important.

I'm not saying that the show has given us a wealth of information concerning the White Walkers, but they've given us some very tasty tidbit to help keep the WW in our minds. I think the books should have done the same by now.

[Black Crow]

But they did, per my signature block, but outside of heresy it was either missed or ignored.

[sj4iy]

But they did, per my signature block, but outside of heresy it was either missed or ignored.

The books hinted that Craster's sons are the ones taking the boys. But it was the show that confirmed what happened to them.

[Frey family reunion]

The books hinted that Craster's sons are the ones taking the boys. But it was the show that confirmed what happened to them.

Well GRRM tends to be a tad more subtle in his writing than the HBO writers. See Renly and Loras.

[sj4iy]

Well GRRM tends to be a tad more subtle in his writing than the HBO writers. See Renly and Loras.

The show can't afford to be subtle, or people get confused. Conspiracy theories are fine and good for readers, who can spend more time putting clues together, but show watchers have to be able to get it as they are watching.

[Black Crow]

The show can't afford to be subtle, or people get confused. Conspiracy theories are fine and good for readers, who can spend more time putting clues together, but show watchers have to be able to get it as they are watching.

Exactly so, and the point still remains that the Others are a mystery precisely because they are not an icy Dothraki horde. The show, of necessity [and I've worked in the business] rendered explicit what is thus far only implicit in the books, but still doesn't explain what's actually going on and why.

What it also does of course is point to a more interesting plot direction and a resolution of the story much closer to home than a thus far anonymous foe because its not going to be a matter of counting the enemy but rather of identifying him.

[sj4iy]

Exactly so, and the point still remains that the Others are a mystery precisely because they are not an icy Dothraki horde. The show, of necessity [and I've worked in the business] rendered explicit what is thus far only implicit in the books, but still doesn't explain what's actually going on and why.

What it also does of course is point to a more interesting plot direction and a resolution of the story much closer to home than a thus far anonymous foe because its not going to be a matter of counting the enemy but rather of identifying him.

My issue is that the books have a lot more substance than the show...yet the Others are almost completely ignored in the last two books. Even at the Wall, we only get a couple second-hand mentions in ADWD. We are over 70% through the story in the books, and we know almost nothing about the major enemy that humanity will apparently be fighting for survival.

[Arya Stark Rules]

Maybe humanity is not meant to fight it? Maybe the real enemy is the children of the forest.

From Old Nan's story.

“Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.” Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, “So, child. This is the sort of story you like?” “Well,” Bran said reluctantly, “yes, only …” Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.” Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen. “Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—”

Isn't it Ironic that the CotF never helped the First Men, they only watched?

[Lopsang]

I made a thread on this last week, but:

I like the Others too, they add depth to the story/lore/fantasy/plot. But, I don't see how they're any longer relevant. With the Horn of Joramun likely with Sam and no way for the Others to get past the Wall, I don't see how they're a threat right now. Some people say they'll sail past the wall or some say they can man siege equipment but I don't see how. If sailing past the Wall is possible, why does the Night's Watch lack a navy? Jon in none of his POV's expresses concern about them crossing the water, neither does anybody else EVER, unless I missed something. There also is nothing to indicate the Others can use siege equipment. The wights are too clumsy to use/make it. If the Others themselves do it, it wouldn't be much, because we don't know how many Others there are, but they seem to be limited in number.

Tl;dr: The Others are cool, but how are they still a threat?

[sj4iy]

Maybe humanity is not meant to fight it? Maybe the real enemy is the children of the forest.

From Old Nan's story.

“Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks.” Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, “So, child. This is the sort of story you like?” “Well,” Bran said reluctantly, “yes, only …” Old Nan nodded. “In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.” Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen. “Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—”

Isn't it Ironic that the CotF never helped the First Men, they only watched?

“I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night’s Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night... or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part’s plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don’t know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls.”

So it's clear that the CotF have helped men to fight the Others since at least as far back as the Age of Heroes.

I absolutely don't believe in the "Others aren't really bad guys at all!" theories. We may not know much of the Others, but they DO kill people, and in horrible ways.

[Arya Stark Rules]

“I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night’s Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night... or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part’s plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don’t know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls.”

So it's clear that the CotF have helped men to fight the Others since at least as far back as the Age of Heroes.

I absolutely don't believe in the "Others aren't really bad guys at all!" theories. We may not know much of the Others, but they DO kill people, and in horrible ways.

Most of the accounts in the Age of heroes were written by the Andals, and the book is hinting that they aren't accurate.

The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for a hundred years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights.

Knights riding around a thousand years before there were actual knights seems like there is something wrong with the timeline. Old Nan's oral tales IMO are more accurate since there is a hint that she has Giant blood which might explain her old age, and Giants can speak the old tongue which might be the runes the First Men wrote

Personally I believe the Long Night occured during the Age of Heroes and the Pact ended the age of heroes, hence why Old Nan's tale is about the last Hero, meaning the last of the heroes.

[sj4iy]

Most of the accounts in the Age of heroes were written by the Andals, and the book is hinting that they aren't accurate.

And where do the books hint that the CotF are the bad guys and the Others aren't? I don't see anything that contradicts the fact that the CotF have given the NW obsidian weapons...in fact, I see something that SUPPORTS this assertion in that Jon has found a stash of obsidian weapons wrapped in a NW cloak.

[Howland Reeds Weed Swamp]

I made a thread on this last week, but:

I like the Others too, they add depth to the story/lore/fantasy/plot. But, I don't see how they're any longer relevant. With the Horn of Joramun likely with Sam and no way for the Others to get past the Wall, I don't see how they're a threat right now. Some people say they'll sail past the wall or some say they can man siege equipment but I don't see how. If sailing past the Wall is possible, why does the Night's Watch lack a navy? Jon in none of his POV's expresses concern about them crossing the water, neither does anybody else EVER, unless I missed something. There also is nothing to indicate the Others can use siege equipment. The wights are too clumsy to use/make it. If the Others themselves do it, it wouldn't be much, because we don't know how many Others there are, but they seem to be limited in number.

Tl;dr: The Others are cool, but how are they still a threat?

Sorcery. I also made a thread on then having assets. Bloodraven is a strongly believed asset. All it takes is a warg of someone like Sam and a could clean blow and you can set the world alight. Have you ever considered Ice Dragons either? Frozen seas? I may be making a rookie mistake here but how did The Direwolves make it's across The wall? Didn't Jon have some way of getting Giants across the Wall. Then we consider Val etc. Who may have affiliation with them. George hasn't hyped these things so they can stand like headless goose bashing there fists against a giant ice wall. You never even considered Undead Giants :P

Dem motherfuckers would be cool.

[Howland Reeds Weed Swamp]

I made a thread on this last week, but:

I like the Others too, they add depth to the story/lore/fantasy/plot. But, I don't see how they're any longer relevant. With the Horn of Joramun likely with Sam and no way for the Others to get past the Wall, I don't see how they're a threat right now. Some people say they'll sail past the wall or some say they can man siege equipment but I don't see how. If sailing past the Wall is possible, why does the Night's Watch lack a navy? Jon in none of his POV's expresses concern about them crossing the water, neither does anybody else EVER, unless I missed something. There also is nothing to indicate the Others can use siege equipment. The wights are too clumsy to use/make it. If the Others themselves do it, it wouldn't be much, because we don't know how many Others there are, but they seem to be limited in number.

Tl;dr: The Others are cool, but how are they still a threat?

Sorcery. I also made a thread on then having assets. Bloodraven is a strongly believed asset. All it takes is a warg of someone like Sam and a could clean blow and you can set the world alight. Have you ever considered Ice Dragons either? Frozen seas? I may be making a rookie mistake here but how did The Direwolves make it's across The wall? Didn't Jon have some way of getting Giants across the Wall. Then we consider Val etc. Who may have affiliation with them. George hasn't hyped these things so they can stand like headless goose bashing there fists against a giant ice wall. You never even considered Undead Giants :P

Dem motherfuckers would be cool.

Sorry for double post.

[Arya Stark Rules]

And where do the books hint that the CotF are the bad guys and the Others aren't? I don't see anything that contradicts the fact that the CotF have given the NW obsidian weapons...in fact, I see something that SUPPORTS this assertion in that Jon has found a stash of obsidian weapons wrapped in a NW cloak.

I didn't say they are the bad guys I was just throwing a possibility in the air. There is no evidence the children left that stash for Jon though.

And as I pointed out the Andal history is very in accurate so it shouldn't be taken as canon imo, it seems more like a red herring to lull readers into believing it.