GRRM is/has done a brilliant Job with The others.

[sj4iy]

I agree with this point, but GRRM has also said that he is limited by the POV issue. Neither Renly nor Loras were POV characters, so no one would actually see what they were doing who the readers would be following. The HBO show is not so limited (and has the "sexploitation" incentive to be more explicit).

Agreed- that is an advantage of the show's format. The advantage of the books' format is that we can see what characters are thinking. So both have their good points and bad points.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Agreed- that is an advantage of the show's format. The advantage of the books' format is that we can see what characters are thinking. So both have their good points and bad points.

Well, there are books that do both--that shift between "omniscient" view and POV view. I think that the reason for the POV approach is not because GRRM had to make a choice between the two--he knows he could do both. In some sense he does this. At times the action in the story is stated objectively in terms of what is going on around the character (these statement are "reliable" and not subject to the limits of an "unreliable narrator") and other times the reader is taken inside the head of the POV character (often quite unreliable).

I think the actual advantage to this approach is that is sets a certain tone for the books. It makes the use of unreliable narrators more natural and avoids the sometimes jarring effect of going between omniscient view and POV view. Basically, the mysteries come across more naturally as a result of the POV approach.

[sj4iy]

Well, there are books that do both--that shift between "omniscient" view and POV view. I think that the reason for the POV approach is not because GRRM had to make a choice between the two--he knows he could do both. In some sense he does this. At times the action in the story is stated objectively in terms of what is going on around the character (these statement are "reliable" and not subject to the limits of an "unreliable narrator") and other times the reader is taken inside the head of the POV character (often quite unreliable).

I think the actual advantage to this approach is that is sets a certain tone for the books. It makes the use of unreliable narrators more natural and avoids the sometimes jarring effect of going between omniscient view and POV view. Basically, the mysteries come across more naturally as a result of the POV approach.

Yes, but even the most reliable narrator can't describe what's happening in a place he or she isn't in...such as the Lands of Always Winter. And until Bran finally made his way up to BR, there really wasn't any real way to show it in the books. That's the drawback of the format.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yes, but even the most reliable narrator can't describe what's happening in a place he or she isn't in...such as the Lands of Always Winter. And until Bran finally made his way up to BR, there really wasn't any real way to show it in the books. That's the drawback of the format.

Yes, that is my point. GRRM could have written the book without a POV approach. He could take us into the head of any character he wants to and just tell the story "from above" when he wants to do that. If he had taken that approach, he could have showed us Renly and Loras getting it on, and he could have shown us what the Others are up to. My point is that GRRM did not have to "choose" between the two--he could have used both. He chose not to do so for tone/style reasons--notwithstanding the limitations. He made some concessions by adding POV characters he had not originally intended. But the issue is not that the reader could never be taken into a character's head without a strict POV approach--many authors do so. GRRM determined that he wanted to be constrained by this limitation for other reasons (not because it was the only way to get inside a character's head).

[sj4iy]

Yes, that is my point. GRRM could have written the book without a POV approach. He could take us into the head of any character he wants to and just tell the story "from above" when he wants to do that. If he had taken that approach, he could have showed us Renly and Loras getting it on, and he could have shown us what the Others are up to. My point is that GRRM did not have to "choose" between the two--he could have used both. He chose not to do so for tone/style reasons--notwithstanding the limitations. He made some concessions by adding POV characters he had not originally intended. But the issue is not that the reader could never be taken into a character's head without a strict POV approach--many authors do so. GRRM determined that he wanted to be constrained by this limitation for other reasons (not because it was the only way to get inside a character's head).

I'm simply saying that the show has the advantage in showing things that happen concerning non-POV characters, while the show has the advantage of giving us the thoughts and feelings of the POV characters. That was basically my point ^^

[UnmaskedLurker]

I'm simply saying that the show has the advantage in showing things that happen concerning non-POV characters, while the show has the advantage of giving us the thoughts and feelings of the POV characters. That was basically my point ^^

Yes, I think we basically agree.

[Black Crow]

“I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night’s Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night... or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part’s plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don’t know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls.”

So it's clear that the CotF have helped men to fight the Others since at least as far back as the Age of Heroes.

I absolutely don't believe in the "Others aren't really bad guys at all!" theories. We may not know much of the Others, but they DO kill people, and in horrible ways.

Ah but it aint necessarily so. Yes Sam finds the children gave 100 obsidian daggers each year during the Age of Heroes, but obsidian was what the children used to fight with anyway - and to kill men. In this context its therefore worth noting that before the Long Night there were 100 kingdoms or men which sounds very much like originally there was one dagger for each kingdom - an affirmation each year that the Pact still held.

Its perfectly true that the walkers we've seen do kill people. They need to in order to be a credible threat to scare people with, but in terms of being horrible they are nowhere near being in the same league as the Bloody Mummers.

And then, ultimately, at the end of the day if they are Craster's sons as some of us have been arguing on heresy for years then they are not an invading army, far less an Icy Dothraki horde.

[sj4iy]

Ah but it aint necessarily so. Yes Sam finds the children gave 100 obsidian daggers each year during the Age of Heroes, but obsidian was what the children used to fight with anyway - and to kill men. In this context its therefore worth noting that before the Long Night there were 100 kingdoms or men which sounds very much like originally there was one dagger for each kingdom - an affirmation each year that the Pact still held.

Its perfectly true that the walkers we've seen do kill people. They need to in order to be a credible threat to scare people with, but in terms of being horrible they are nowhere near being in the same league as the Bloody Mummers.

And then, ultimately, at the end of the day if they are Craster's sons as some of us have been arguing on heresy for years then they are not an invading army, far less an Icy Dothraki horde.

If the CotF aren't helping men, then where did the obsidian weapons that Jon found in a fresh NW cloak come from?

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

The Others are an ancient race like the Children but as the Children represented spring and summer the Others represent winter .

[The Mother of The Others]

If they really are the seasons personified, that'd fit with how Winter always has a tough time letting go. It requires Spring to come along and "break the back of Winter" with a thawing that finally sends the cold packing. Or else Winter's greedy nature would cause it to stay.... forever. Now add the Others' conscious thought and will power to the equation, and you've got a Season of the year that's actively scheming to make itself eternal.

Just going with that theme for a sec, the Children have seen better days and are in decline so they might have previously represented Spring but are now wearing the colors of Autumn? This could be why they're too weak presently to hold off the Others the way they used to, and why another great cold snap is coming. The humans seem to prefer the lazy days of Summer when life is easier (and we're able to survive) so the sorting hat might assign our species to that season. Except for the First Men, the old gods crew who loiter nearby the magic lever that changes Winter to Spring, and perhaps in some real way they actually do stand guard over the changing of the seasons, helping to enforce the coming of Spring thanks to their ancient involvement in a magical decree every bit as weighty and fateful as the one that turned the Others into Others in the first place.

[Black Crow]

You might find this thread relevant:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117942-heresy-136-the-heart-of-darkness/

[Mehmet Eren]

Craster's boys is others or we will see different kind of others in the such orginals , Crasters boys, Night king .... there is lots of unknow factor about others Did some realy kill one İt is so much easy to kill others maybe.Also we see different kind design interm of other in the show so this can lead us there there is differention in the others This topic is fluid for me is some own more solid information/idea ?