GRRM is/has done a brilliant Job with The others.

[sj4iy]

I didn't say they are the bad guys I was just throwing a possibility in the air. There is no evidence the children left that stash for Jon though.

And as I pointed out the Andal history is very in accurate so it shouldn't be taken as canon imo, it seems more like a red herring to lull readers into believing it.

I don't think the CotF left it for Jon. I think Benjen left it for the NW (because it the NWman cloak wasn't in the ground for very long)...but the NWman who left it had to have gotten them from somewhere- and we know that the CotF gave the NW weapons of obsidian, and Jon finds a stash of obsidian weapons wrapped up in a NW's cloak. So I don't think it's a mistake...if I had to guess, I think Benjen met up with the CotF and was given obsidian weapons as well as the broken horn of Joramun.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

We saw that there is an apparent hierarchy.

We saw that there is a circle that they go into to perform this ritual.

I think we learned quite a lot in just a couple of minutes of screentime.

That alone is very important. It shows they have some sort of a culture or civilization.

Well GRRM tends to be a tad more subtle in his writing than the HBO writers. See Renly and Loras.

Well, that book was from 1998, still dark ages in accepting homosexuality, I suppose. I doubt he was being "subtle" but simply avoided being "explicit".

[Arya Stark Rules]

I don't think the CotF left it for Jon. I think Benjen left it for the NW (because it the NWman cloak wasn't in the ground for very long)...but the NWman who left it had to have gotten them from somewhere- and we know that the CotF gave the NW weapons of obsidian, and Jon finds a stash of obsidian weapons wrapped up in a NW's cloak. So I don't think it's a mistake...if I had to guess, I think Benjen met up with the CotF and was given obsidian weapons as well as the broken horn of Joramun.

I don't think its necessarily a mistake I just think the history behind that practice is the one that's a mistake. The Andal version is that the CotF and the First Men had war for years and then they made a Pact and lived happily ever after and then after that the Long Night came and then it ended in some way. But this timeline is not correct

The practice of giving obsidian seems to be based off the idea that the CotF know it can defeat the others. If they knew it could defeat the others then why did they just watch?

The answer to this in my mind is that they wanted some sort of pact before beginning this practice, which makes it possible that the children may have been involved in the first Long Night.

Think of it this way, if there is a disease killing a certain group of people and another group for some reason is not affected and are just watching the events unfold and they also have the cure for said disease doesn't it seem possible they are the source of said disease, hoping the people suffering come to some compromise with them before they give the cure?

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Yes, it has "revealed" two things:

1) Confimed a theory about the nature of Craster's sacrifices. It was literally told to us in the story as well, but we might not have considered the source reliable as readers of the story.

2) Although this doesn't come from the show itself, they slipped up and summarized one character as "The Night's King". If true, this actually just raises further questions but could be a tiny morsel for us to chew on.

If you ask me, this is not really a whole lot to go on. I consider "The Others" to be just about as mysterious as ever.

I have to agree, the show's contributions only raise questions, especially the naming of the Night's King character. Honestly, it could be a title conferred on whoever happens to lead The Others at any given time, who the hell knows what all that was supposed to even mean? Not to mention, the NK reference was removed from official crediting, etc.

It wasn't hard to figure out there was something to Craster's LIVING sons being given to The Others.

[Ser-Hodor]

And moonboy for all i know

[sj4iy]

I don't think its necessarily a mistake I just think the history behind that practice is the one that's a mistake. The Andal version is that the CotF and the First Men had war for years and then they made a Pact and lived happily ever after and then after that the Long Night came and then it ended in some way. But this timeline is not correct

The practice of giving obsidian seems to be based off the idea that the CotF know it can defeat the others. If they knew it could defeat the others then why did they just watch?

The answer to this in my mind is that they wanted some sort of pact before beginning this practice, which makes it possible that the children may have been involved in the first Long Night.

Think of it this way, if there is a disease killing a certain group of people and another group for some reason is not affected and are just watching the events unfold and they also have the cure for said disease doesn't it seem possible they are the source of said disease, hoping the people suffering come to some compromise with them before they give the cure?

I don't think there's any mistake. I think it's a hint that supposed to set off alarm bells about what happened 2 books before it. In book 2, we find a stash of obsidian weapons wrapped in a NW cloak (one that is relatively new because it's not rotted at all). Later on, we find that those weapons can kill the Others. In book 4, we hear Sam say "The CotF gave the NW 100 obsidian weapons every year during the Age of Heroes". I see this as directly connecting to what Jon found at the Fist of the First Men.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The best part of the scene with the others is that all of us freaked out... admit it! it was collective hysteria :lol: I was at home saying "OMG I WAS SPOILED! I WAS SPOILED! I DONT DESERVE THIS!" (not true: I did deserved it).

And then, that meme with the pic of the Night King that said "HBO sends their regards" :lmao:

[sj4iy]

The best part of the scene with the others is that all of us freaked out... admit it! it was collective hysteria :lol: I was at home saying "OMG I WAS SPOILED! I WAS SPOILED! I DONT DESERVE THIS!" (not true: I did deserved it).

And then, that meme with the pic of the Night King that said "HBO sends their regards" :lmao:

Admittedly, I found the ensuing 'controversy' hilarious XD

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Admittedly, I found the ensuing 'controversy' hilarious XD

The Unsullied enjoyed it the most: "what? readers were spoiled??? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL"

We had it coming. Some of us...

[sj4iy]

The Unsullied enjoyed it the most: "what? readers were spoiled??? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL"

We had it coming. Some of us...

Well, when I first watched the scene, I was amazed...it was like "holy shit, we finally are sailing into uncharted waters here!" And then, of course, the internets blew up XD

[Lady Fevre Dream]

The best part of the scene with the others is that all of us freaked out... admit it! it was collective hysteria :lol: I was at home saying "OMG I WAS SPOILED! I WAS SPOILED! I DONT DESERVE THIS!" (not true: I did deserved it).

And then, that meme with the pic of the Night King that said "HBO sends their regards" :lmao:

I just couldn't get past the ridiculousness of the baby not freezing to death while travelling to the far off Land of Always Winter in the hands of an Ice Demon, not to mention.......Darth Maul in blue makeup with a bad crown playing the Night's King?? WTF?? :shocked:

[sj4iy]

I just couldn't get past the ridiculousness of the baby not freezing to death while travelling to the far off Land of Always Winter in the hands of an Ice Demon

...magic? I mean, if it's not 'ridiculous' for ice demons to bring back the dead, I don't see why it is ridiculous for them to have the ability to ward off death in the first place.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

...magic? I mean, if it's not 'ridiculous' for ice demons to bring back the dead, I don't see why it is ridiculous for them to have the ability to ward off death in the first place.

It'd made more sense to transform the baby beforehand, or actually wrap the damn thing up good...........then someone wouldn't have to give me the silly, duh magic, excuse. :dunno:

[sj4iy]

It'd made more sense to transform the baby beforehand, or actually wrap the damn thing up good...........then someone wouldn't have to give me the silly, duh magic, excuse. :dunno:

I'm guessing that the one who picked up the baby didn't have the ability to 'change' the baby into a White Walker. He was just a messenger.

And it's not a 'silly' answer. It's the ONLY answer. This is fantasy, magic happens. Suspending disbelief is necessary, because 'duh', magic. If they can change a human into a White Walker, if they can raise the dead of all species, then I don't see why it's ridiculous that they could keep a baby from dying in the first place.

[wolfmaid7]

First off im of the opinion the Wws aren't the big bad.They are not the one resurrecting the dead.Barring what characters believe there is no proof of that.We have one inference of who or what can do that. Master Lutein said it was believed from tales that the Children could talk to the dead.

Leaf tells Bran do not seek to call back Ned from the dead as nothing good comes from that.This ability lies possibly in the hands of who we call a greenseer.

The wws purpose is to heard humans to the wall.it is that action that has kept a whole host of Wights. If Mance and co had stayed beyond the Wall the harsh winter would have killed them all and they all would have risen as Wights.

Another thing in the books we have yet to see wws using Wights to attack humans.that's because they are not what's driving them.its necromancy as Mel rightfully tells Jon and the WWs aren't necromancers.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I'm guessing that the one who picked up the baby didn't have the ability to 'change' the baby into a White Walker. He was just a messenger.

And it's not a 'silly' answer. It's the ONLY answer. This is fantasy, magic happens. Suspending disbelief is necessary, because 'duh', magic. If they can change a human into a White Walker, if they can raise the dead of all species, then I don't see why it's ridiculous that they could keep a baby from dying in the first place.

Magic also needs to have rules and sense and work in a certain context. You want to explain it away, I see an issue with a lack of 'sense,' magic or not. Just as it is your prerogative not to have an issue with something, it's mine to find it lacking a certain something. Suspension of belief is important, but it cannot be the only thing to fall back on. I suspend my belief in reality to accept the existance of dragons and ice demons (for want of a better word), but I'm going to have a problem if the dragon starts spouting ICE instead of fire. It's your right to suspend as much belief as you want, but you can't expect everyone to have the same forgiving rules as you do.

[Hodor's Dragon]

The best part of the scene with the others is that all of us freaked out... admit it! it was collective hysteria :lol: I was at home saying "OMG I WAS SPOILED! I WAS SPOILED! I DONT DESERVE THIS!" (not true: I did deserved it).

And then, that meme with the pic of the Night King that said "HBO sends their regards" :lmao:

Since I really don't care about the Others that much, that scene surprised me but didn't really move me.

But the new material that really had me on the edge of the chair was Sansa and Petyr meeting with the Lords Declarant. When they did the "only Cat/your sister" scene, it wasn't the change in the "only Cat" line that freaked me out, it was leaving out "this singer has killed my lady wife" part. I was wondering what on earth they were thinking leaving that out, since it left a huge complication in that he hadn't gotten the story straight with Little Bird.

But that really worked out. When Sansa started telling the story to the LDs, I was literally on the edge of my seat and leaning forward. The first time in four years that something entirely new that I really cared about had been introduced, the first time my pulse had been racing when I watched the show. I had no idea what she was going to say. I mean yeah, there had been some scenes that I dug (dracarys, anyone?), but that was the first time I was actually nervous watching the show, just like an unsullied! And the tension was delicious - Aidan Gillen probably hasn't lived up to his performance in The Wire overall, but he really nailed the facial expression for that scene: pooping his panties while at the same time trying to put a cool and unconcerned face toward the LDs.

Sorry for the off-topic, I'll feel very guilty if the thread gets derailed. :dunno:

[UnmaskedLurker]

The show can't afford to be subtle, or people get confused. Conspiracy theories are fine and good for readers, who can spend more time putting clues together, but show watchers have to be able to get it as they are watching.

I agree with this point, but GRRM has also said that he is limited by the POV issue. Neither Renly nor Loras were POV characters, so no one would actually see what they were doing who the readers would be following. The HBO show is not so limited (and has the "sexploitation" incentive to be more explicit).

[sj4iy]

Magic also needs to have rules and sense and work in a certain context. You want to explain it away, I see an issue with a lack of 'sense,' magic or not. Just as it is your prerogative not to have an issue with something, it's mine to find it lacking a certain something. Suspension of belief is important, but it cannot be the only thing to fall back on. I suspend my belief in reality to accept the existance of dragons and ice demons (for want of a better word), but I'm going to have a problem if the dragon starts spouting ICE instead of fire. It's your right to suspend as much belief as you want, but you can't expect everyone to have the same forgiving rules as you do.

Okay then, what are the rules? Because so far, I don't know what they are in terms of this story. I couldn't begin to tell you why people have the abilities to do what they do, or why an entire generation of Starks get abilities that would be a statical impossibility.

Magic doesn't make sense in this story.

[UnmaskedLurker]

My issue is that the books have a lot more substance than the show...yet the Others are almost completely ignored in the last two books. Even at the Wall, we only get a couple second-hand mentions in ADWD. We are over 70% through the story in the books, and we know almost nothing about the major enemy that humanity will apparently be fighting for survival.

Again, I think there are two basic reasons for this issue, one practical and the other pacing. The practical issue is that GRRM really is limited by his choice of only having POV chapters. An Other is not going to be a POV character, so we can only see the Others when a POV character sees the Others. GRRM has stated that the story will go the Land of Always Winter in the next book. I suspect the POV will be Jon while warging Ghost. Ghost will go North and "hide" while viewing the activity of the Others. The other possibility is Bran while warging a bird or something. But the scene in the HBO show did not have a POV character watching, so any analogous scene in the books will have to be different in that a POV character will have to be watching somehow. So GRRM has to first figure out a way to get a POV character that far North in order to show us more of the Others. That really could not happen earlier in the series.

The pacing issue is really two-fold. One is what I noted above--i.e., that GRRM is treating the Others kind of like the shark in Jaws. The Others/shark is scarier in our imagination that it ever could really be portrayed. So show just enough to demonstrate how dangerous they are. But the bigger pacing issue is that I just don't think there is really that much to show the readers. GRRM does not want to show the readers a lot early on and then run out of things about the Others to show. So until the story is ready for them to come South and cross the Wall somehow (perhaps that Horn gets blown after all), there just is not that much for the readers to see (I suspect). So GRRM waits for Book 6 to finally show us all there is to really know about them right before they start heading South at the end of book 6 or beginning of book 7.