Hate for Tyrion & Danaerys?

[Hodor's Dragon]

No it isn't. And this continual defense of it is why it gets discussed so often.

Before I type out the long reason Dany had to do that, could I get you give me an example of a better-justified instance, first? I ask because I've stated that justification on more than one occasion, so it's not news. It's also pretty obvious. It's so well-justified that I'm not fully convinced she was wrong to do it, even though I'm very anti-torture.

[OldGimletEye]

Before I type out the long reason Dany had to do that, could I get you give me an example of a better-justified instance, first? I ask because I've stated that justification on more than one occasion, so it's not news. It's also pretty obvious.

Go ahead and type out your long reason. I'll probably not find it very persuasive. And by all means, give me your justification. It's probably going to be a dog that ain't gonna hunt.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I also want to point out that Jon himself has been a guest in the ice cells. It sucks because it's a prison, but it isn't torture and Jon, who, again, has actually experienced it, doesn't think of it as such. It's cold and made of ice. They're up in the far north where it's cold and the most prominent structure is made of ice.

The idea that Cregan being imprisoned in a cell is on the same level as Dany letting the Shavepate torture his way through Meereen is laughable and something I'd be embarrassed to argue with a straight face. Just shows the mental gymnastics to excuse what Dany has done by making the kindergarten argument that "other people do it" when the situations aren't remotely comparable.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

TBH, I would say is GRRM the one who has set up Jon under a more positive light than Dany, whatever his reasons were. And while he's a lot of more "innocent" than the other main characters, he's definitely not "clean" at all. But of course, when Dany is defended, it's called "excuses". When Jon is defended, it's called "explanations" :dunno:

[butterbumps!]

I thought we were told that people die in there after a while. Maybe I'm wrong. Pretty certain I recall people coming down with colds after a week or so, and I wouldn't expect a cold to get better if it's caused by a chill, and the chill continues.

I think it's pretty questionable as to whether ice cells would've been considered torture in that milieu. In ours, absolutely, and that's where my own personal definition of torture lies.

No, that's the sky cells. The "blue calls to them."

I do think architecture can be a form of torture; we've had cells designed specifically to cause mental and physical pain in our own history, and the sky cells (specifically, that slight slant toward the exterior) probably qualify. I just don't happen to think these ice cells do, at least the one Karstark was in. He wasn't left to freeze, but given blankets and such, and he was most definitely offered the chance to leave them at any time by simply not being an asshole. He's not being left there to rot the way the sky cells work.

Honestly, I'd probably rather be in an ice cell than draw watch at the top of the Wall, which sounds absolutely miserable and frigid.

[Mikkel]

I think it's more accurate to say that when a character you like is defended, you call it explanations, and when it's one you don't, you call it excuses. It's not isolated to Dany or Jon.

[OldGimletEye]

TBH, I would say is GRRM the one who has set up Jon under a more positive light than Dany, whatever his reasons were. And while he's a lot of more "innocent" than the other main characters, he's definitely not "clean" at all. But of course, when Dany is defended, it's called "excuses". When Jon is defended, it's called "explanations" :dunno:

Actually, no character is completely "morally clean", well except maybe for Brienne. But, that does not mean that we can't distinguish between characters. And the fact that Dany has some good points, doesn't imply that we can't, on the whole. view her in a negative light. Personally, my main problem with Dany is that when she messes up, she usually leaves some brutal blood bath in her wake.

[Hodor's Dragon]

No, that's the sky cells. The "blue calls to them."

-> snip

No, I'm talking about the ice cells. I'm certain prisoners get sick in there after a while. They would, you know, people need to warm up occasionally.

[Dr. Pepper]

No, I'm talking about the ice cells. I'm certain prisoners get sick in there after a while. They would, you know, people need to warm up occasionally.

Jon is the only other person who had been in an ice cell. He didn't get sick. His cell happened to be incredibly small, such that he couldn't stand or lie down completely. The Karstark's cell is the largest one.

Are you thinking of the 79 sentinels who were actually buried alive in the wall?

[Mikkel]

No, I'm talking about the ice cells. I'm certain prisoners get sick in there after a while. They would, you know, people need to warm up occasionally.

A reasonable assumption, but you said we specifically get told they get sick after a while - I'm not sure that's the case.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Actually, no character is completely "morally clean", well except maybe for Brienne. But, that does not mean that we can distinguish between characters. And the fact that Dany has some good points, doesn't imply that we can't, on the whole. view her in a negative light. Personally, my main problem with Dany is that when she messes up, she usually leaves some brutal blood bath in her wake.

Maybe that's what happens next with Jon. How many wildlings are now in Westeros? What will happen once they found out he's "dead" and decided to either avenge him or escape?

If something happens, I'm quite sure it will be said "but that wasn't Jon's fault! he couldn't have foreseen that! it's not his fault he died!".

[butterbumps!]

No, I'm talking about the ice cells. I'm certain prisoners get sick in there after a while. They would, you know, people need to warm up occasionally.

But I'm trying to tell you that the cells we're told men don't last long in are the sky cells, not the ice cells, despite your certainty of the apparent fatality of them. No such condemnation of the ice cells is made. It's unpleasant, because it's a form of punishment. Punishment is not meant to be pleasant.

Karstark is given fur blankets for the issue of warming up. He is not left to freeze (or starve; he was being fed despite throwing his own shit at the men who came to feed him).

[OldGimletEye]

Maybe that's what happens next with Jon. How many wildlings are now in Westeros? What will happen once they found out he's "dead" and decided to either avenge him or escape?

If something happens, I'm quite sure it will be said "but that wasn't Jon's fault! he couldn't have foreseen that! it's not his fault he died!".

And there isn't a core of Dany defenders that excuses all of her actions? There is. But, be as that may, we don't know what the wildlings will do. Jon bringing the wildlings behind the Wall wasn't unreasonable, under the circumstances. He needs the man power in order to fight the others. Sure the strategy was dangerous, but it was reasonable under the circumstances.

[Bryanfury]

No, I'm talking about the ice cells. I'm certain prisoners get sick in there after a while. They would, you know, people need to warm up occasionally.

Don't see how the cells differ from 99% of the rest of the Wall in this regard to be honest

[Hodor's Dragon]

You mean the wineseller's daughters-- in order to get a confession from the wineseller-- whom Dany acknowledges likely has no idea about the crime that was committed, and agrees to have the daughters questioned sharply only after she gets pissed off about the crime further?

I don't even care that Dany did this, but it bothers me a lot when this is described as "justified," because this particular episode falls under the very opposite of that definition. I only replied because I was a bit surprised to see the "Jon is torturer too" angle used, and don't really have anything invested in the Dany/ Tyrion hate so I don't want to make a thing of this. But I kind of take exception with this justified thing.

First, an important distinction. I didn't call it "justified." I said it was "arguably justified," "done for a compelling reason" and "one of the most justified" instances of torture. I didn't and wouldn't call it justified. I don't want to talk about this unless that's clear.

Having said that, I wouldn't call it "unjustified," either. Even though I'm very anti-torture, Dany had a lot of reasons to act that way. I think that if I had been in that situation, I probably wouldn't have done it, but only because I don't think torture is effective. If I were Dany, and everybody I knew told me it was, I may very well have done the same thing. She was truly in a desperate position.

Remember the situation: 9 of her people had been murdered the night before. One of them was a harpist who was the representative of the freedmen on Dany's council, who was tortured before being murdered by having her fingers broken. Another was Missandei's brother. The Harpy's murderers were stepping up their game, hitting big numbers, hitting people close to Dany, and it was very obvious that her entire regime was threatened, as well as everything she had accomplished, including the freeing of the slaves.

The other important point is that the wineseller's shop was her only lead.

It is not politically acceptable in the ASOIAF milieu, for a leader to take no action in response to that. If a leader doesn't show strength, she is branded as weak, and her enemies will be emboldened. "Justified" or not is a question I won't tackle, except in the comparative aspect as I've already done, but if one of the other torturers in the book had a reason that good or better, I'd like to hear about it. Dany had a really good reason, and just once I'd like one of the people who are constantly bringing this up to also explain what she was thinking other than "I am soooo evil!!! (evilgrin)."

[Hodor's Dragon]

But I'm trying to tell you that the cells we're told men don't last long in are the sky cells, not the ice cells, despite your certainty of the apparent fatality of them. No such condemnation of the ice cells is made. It's unpleasant, because it's a form of punishment. Punishment is not meant to be pleasant.

Karstark is given fur blankets for the issue of warming up. He is not left to freeze (or starve; he was being fed despite throwing his own shit at the men who came to feed him).

I'm not confusing the ice cells with the sky cells. Really, I'm not. When I get home and have my searchable Kindle I'll find the part about people starting to sniffle after a week or more in the ice cells.

EDIT: OK, found this on Google:

"As you will." Jon nodded to Iron Emmett. "Please take Lord Janos to the Wall--"

--and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

And there isn't a core of Dany defenders that excuses all of her actions?

Again: when Dany is defended, it's called "excuses". When Jon is defended, it's called "explanations"

[OldGimletEye]

First, an important distinction. I didn't call it "justified." I said it was "arguably justified," "done for a compelling reason" and "one of the most justified" instances of torture. I didn't and wouldn't call it justified. I don't want to talk about this unless that's clear.

Having said that, I wouldn't call it "unjustified," either. Even though I'm very anti-torture, Dany had a lot of reasons to act that way. I think that if I had been in that situation, I probably wouldn't have done it, but only because I don't think torture is effective. If I were Dany, and everybody I knew told me it was, I may very well have done the same thing. She was truly in a desperate position.

Remember the situation: 9 of her people had been murdered the night before. One of them was a harpist who was the representative of the freedmen on Dany's council, who was tortured before being murdered by having her fingers broken. Another was Missandei's brother. The Harpy's murderers were stepping up their game, hitting big numbers, hitting people close to Dany, and it was very obvious that her entire regime was threatened, as well as everything she had accomplished, including the freeing of the slaves.

The other important point is that the wineseller's shop was her only lead.

It is not politically acceptable in the ASOIAF milieu, for a leader to take no action in response to that. If a leader doesn't show strength, she is branded as weak, and her enemies will be emboldened. "Justified" or not is a question I won't tackle, except in the comparative aspect as I've already done, but if one of the other torturers in the book had a reason that good or better, I'd like to hear about it. Dany had a really good reason, and just once I'd like one of the people who are constantly bringing this up to also explain what she was thinking other than "I am soooo evil!!! (evilgrin)."

The bottom line is that she had little evidence to believe the wineseller or his daughters were guilty of anything. And did she get any information from them, leading to the arrest of the culprits? No, she didn't. So much for looking like a strong leader.

[Mikkel]

Again: when Dany is defended, it's called "excuses". When Jon is defended, it's called "explanations"

Again: this is a difference in terminology used consciously or otherwise due to personal bias. If you like a character, you call it explanations. If you don't, you call it excuses. This is not isolated to Jon or Dany.

[OldGimletEye]

Again: when Dany is defended, it's called "excuses". When Jon is defended, it's called "explanations"

Well, here is the thing: Jon has had his share of screw ups, but non of them have been as troubling as Dany's, as you have already have seemed to have admitted.