Trial by Folly: The Arianne Martell Reread Project [TWOW Arianne I spoilers]

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Chebyshov, very good comments. There's another reason for Arianne to put a distance between herself and the Sand Snakes. She now knows that she will be their ruler, and they will be her subjects. They have to get used to obeying her and her father now, so she won't tolerate disrespect towards her father.

Whether they'll see it the same way remains to be seen.

The Sand Snakes must really be flabbergasted, but they swore in Oberyn's name to obey Doran, so I doubt they'll be running around trying to kill Cersei in TWOW. Also, Hotah does note that Obara 'loves her well'.

[Julia Martell]

Chebyshov, very good comments. There's another reason for Arianne to put a distance between herself and the Sand Snakes. She now knows that she will be their ruler, and they will be her subjects. They have to get used to obeying her and her father now, so she won't tolerate disrespect towards her father.

Whether they'll see it the same way remains to be seen.

You make a good point. The "loneliness of power" must be a toughie, especially for someone like Arianne, who feels her friendships so deeply. I don't see her relationship with Tyene, for example, ever recovering from this. A that breaks my heart slightly.

Another thing that struck me in this chapter is the contrast between flirty, happy, life of the party Arianne ("OMG Ser Balon, I looove your pin, it's sooo hott!", "A toast? What? Yay, the king! Yay, wine!", "You'll love these fire jugglers. They're, like, artists, you know. It's really, like, deep and stuff", "We always have macabre desserts here. You probably never heard of then in the Stormland... no jk! Hahaha! It's totally just a joke!") to the kind of Arianne who sits in the corner, barely says anything, and blushes with shame at the slightest provocation. I think there's always been this aspect to her personality to some extent, what with the crying herself to sleep in secret, but it's clear how much she's beating herself up.

And S_L also makes a good point; if the Sand Snakes care about anything, it's their father. They'll take their oath seriously.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Another thing that struck me in this chapter is the contrast between flirty, happy, life of the party Arianne ("OMG Ser Balon, I looove your pin, it's sooo hott!", "A toast? What? Yay, the king! Yay, wine!", "You'll love these fire jugglers. They're, like, artists, you know. It's really, like, deep and stuff", "We always have macabre desserts here. You probably never heard of then in the Stormland... no jk! Hahaha! It's totally just a joke!") to the kind of Arianne who sits in the corner, barely says anything, and blushes with shame at the slightest provocation. I think there's always been this aspect to her personality to some extent, what with the crying herself to sleep in secret, but it's clear how much she's beating herself up.

I eagerly await your TWOW chapter. :drool:

[HexMachina]

The Sand Snakes loved their father and would likely honour their word, but I understand the point about Arriane distancing herself from them. It is the highly debatable idea that a monarch/leader cannot be too close to their subjects. We see Jon adopt this approach on the Wall, sending away Edd, Pyp, Grenn etc and surrounding himsepf with Men he does not truly trust. Dany has a similar approach, allowing the Meereenese to keep their titles and influence in lieu of establishing new positions of power for her extremely loyal freedmen.

By contrast, we see Cersei surround herself with fools, flatterers and lickspittles who are her "friends".

World of Ice and Fire spoilers, kind of. Though it is mentioned in the main series too:

Aerys also filled the Court with 'friends' rather than men of competence.

However, from the examples I provided you can see that both approaches end in the downfall of the monarch or.leader in question. So the debate is hardly clear cut, but I understand the stance that Arriane should distance herself from Nym, Tyene and Obara. Apart from the possibility of becoming too enotionally invested and easily swayed by their opinion, there is also the fact that closeness to others opens them up to being used as leverage against her. And as two of them are going into the Lions Den, so to speak, it is probably wise if Arriane does not appear too attached.

Hope this makes sense, I'm writing from my.mobile so checking back is a pain. Sorry for a lack of contribution, although I have been following your posts and think you are all doing a marvellous job :love:

[Stannis's Lawyer]

It is the highly debatable idea that a monarch/leader cannot be too close to their subjects. We see Jon adopt this approach on the Wall, sending away Edd, Pyp, Grenn etc and surrounding himsepf with Men he does not truly trust. Dany has a similar approach, allowing the Meereenese to keep their titles and influence in lieu of establishing new positions of power for her extremely loyal freedmen.

By contrast, we see Cersei surround herself with fools, flatterers and lickspittles who are her "friends".

World of Ice and Fire spoilers, kind of. Though it is mentioned in the main series too:

Aerys also filled the Court with 'friends' rather than men of competence.

However, from the examples I provided you can see that both approaches end in the downfall of the monarch or.leader in question. So the debate is hardly clear cut, but I understand the stance that Arriane should distance herself from Nym, Tyene and Obara. Apart from the possibility of becoming too enotionally invested and easily swayed by their opinion, there is also the fact that closeness to others opens them up to being used as leverage against her. And as two of them are going into the Lions Den, so to speak, it is probably wise if Arriane does not appear too attached.

Hope this makes sense, I'm writing from my.mobile so checking back is a pain. Sorry for a lack of contribution, although I have been following your posts and think you are all doing a marvellous job :love:

A king has no friends, only subjects and enemies.

[Julia Martell]

A king has no friends, only subjects and enemies.

Yes. Let's encourage Arianne to be just like Stannis. :P

As for the whole friends/subjects thing, it seems to be an almost impossible balance to strike, especially in these kinds of absolute monarchy situations. I guess a wise Prince is one who's simply aware of it, and keeps fighting the good fight.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Yes. Let's encourage Arianne to be just like Stannis. :P

Yay! Then she can have sex with Moqorro to create a shadow baby to kill Trystane!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yay! Then she can have sex with Moqorro to create a shadow baby to kill Trystane!

Well, that escalated quickly..

[SeanF]

A ruling Princess (or heir) (in this world) can't treat even her closest friends as equals. She can't have them thinking they can disobey her without consequence, or presume on her good nature. She may have to send them on military or diplomatic missions that risk their lives. She can't have them acting disrespectfully towards members of her immediate family.

It's not like Prince Hal and Falstaff, but the Sand Snakes have to learn who's in charge.

[Julia Martell]

A ruling Princess (or heir) (in this world) can't treat even her closest friends as equals. She can't have them thinking they can disobey her without consequence, or presume on her good nature. She may have to send them on military or diplomatic missions that risk their lives. She can't have them acting disrespectfully towards members of her immediate family.

It's not like Prince Hal and Falstaff, but the Sand Snakes have to learn who's in charge.

:agree: But there's a danger, too, in being too distant and unapproachable. And a Prince does need some kind of emotional support just to maintain his own mental health. There has to be some one to act like a fucking human around. And when you're an absolute monarch, like the Prince of Dorne more or less is, it's next to impossible to completely separate the personal from the political.

But in the specific case of the Sand Snakes, yeah, Arianne really can't do anything but distance herself. They do not seem to bring out the best in her.

[SeanF]

The three oldest Sand Snakes are a problem. They've got into the habit of being highly disrespectful towards Doran, who shows remarkable forbearance towards them. Probably he relied on Oberyn to keep them in line.

Obara is extremely violent (and, we're told, drinks too much). Nymeria and Tyene strike me as being a pair of charming psycopaths, Tyene particularly. Someone who's acquired a reputation for being a notorious poisoner (so that Doran's maester checks his hand for punctures) is probably rather a nasty person at heart.

[Chebyshov]

The three oldest Sand Snakes are a problem. They've got into the habit of being highly disrespectful towards Doran, who shows remarkable forbearance towards them. Probably he relied on Oberyn to keep them in line.

Obara is extremely violent (and, we're told, drinks too much). Nymeria and Tyene strike me as being a pair of charming psycopaths, Tyene particularly. Someone who's acquired a reputation for being a notorious poisoner (so that Doran's maester checks his hand for punctures) is probably rather a nasty person at heart.

Well, they swore on their father's grave to behave themselves, and Doran's sent them onward with only as much information as he deemed necessary. Time will tell, but I don't think it's necessarily doomed.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

The three oldest Sand Snakes are a problem. They've got into the habit of being highly disrespectful towards Doran, who shows remarkable forbearance towards them. Probably he relied on Oberyn to keep them in line.

Obara is extremely violent (and, we're told, drinks too much). Nymeria and Tyene strike me as being a pair of charming psycopaths, Tyene particularly. Someone who's acquired a reputation for being a notorious poisoner (so that Doran's maester checks his hand for punctures) is probably rather a nasty person at heart.

I actually wonder a lot how much they understood Oberyn. I think they tried to imitate Oberyn and...well...did not succeed very well. It seems clear that they had this idea of Oberyn as being this uncaring badass and nothing else, while Doran and Ellaria know Oberyn better as who he really was.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I found this interesting:

Doran told Arianne about Cersei’s plan to have Trystane killed (BTW, what would Cersei even gain from this?). As we see from Obara’s response to this ("Give me back my spear, Uncle. Cersei sent us a head. We should send her back a bag of them."), it was important to ensure that the Sand Snakes did not know of this beforehand. So Doran now trusts that Arianne will not spill the beans, in stark contrast to this:

Cersei believed that Tyrion and Oberyn were on the same team, and thus, as Cersei always does, she is now paranoid against entire House Martell.. Also one of the reasons she wants Myrcella returned (to have her close, and not with the dornish; her plans can be executed now, because there is no Tywin around to tell her no).

So in Cersei's paranoia state, she apparently reasoned that having Doran's son killed, apparently on Tyrions orders, will forever prevent that Doran will support Tyrion, who is still running around (and Cersei seems to fear he's close, at times).

Hotah reminds himself that Arianne is no longer a child, but a few pages later he reverts to calling her a little princess. Since Hotah shares much of Doran’s view on the world, Doran might still view Arianne as a child.

Here, I disagree. Doran was present for the Princess in the Tower conversation, and whatever conversation came afterwards. He knows Arianne's reasons for all she's done, and all she's capable of. Hotah wasn't a witness to all of this. He doesn't know why Arianne did what she did. He doesn't know how well she's capable of holding secrets (9 to 10 years), he doesn't know what moved her and what she believed about Doran, and all that is clarified.

Their look originally might have been the same, but here, Hotah and Doran start to differ.

However, note that Arianne still uses some of the tactics she used for her Queenmaking plot (which Doran would never use, for very obvious reasons)

Which Doran would personally never use, no, but I'm guessing that this is a tactic father and daughter agreed upon. Keep Balon's mind off of Arys and Myrcella for as long as is possible, so they won't have to answer difficult questions.

Questions for discussion

1. Why is the chapter from Hotah's POV? For narrative reasons? (note that IIRC Arianne I TWOW was originally in ADWD)

2. When the spun-sugar skulls were served, Ser Balon's mouth grew tight, and he gave the prince a lingering look to see if he was being mocked. Why did Swann feel like he was being mocked?

3. "Sisters, truly, I know the poison Father used. If his spear so much as broke the Mountain's skin, Clegane is dead, I do not care how big he was." Since killing Gregor in a trial by combat was presumably not Oberyn's plan A, how does Tyene know what poison Oberyn used?

1. To get a look as a kind of outsider, I guess, at the situation in Dorne now. In Arianne's head, we couldn't have gone without a few thoughts about plots and plans of Doran.. Which, I think, was essential we didn't know yet.

Note of importance is that it seems that practically everywhere where Balon was halted by a lord or lady, travelled with him to Dorne, if I see this correctly with a quick glance. That would have slowed Balon down as well.. Subtly played, Doran. Subtle..

2. Balon was bringing Doran Gregor's skull. And in return, he is served a suger-skull for desert. With Dorne's anger over Elia, and later Oberyn, and their desire for vengeance, given by the return of Gregor's skull. That's a serious deal, and Balon is handeling it with great care. And to get such a thing for dessert, that's as if it isn't a big deal..

And, Balon is probably a bit nervous about having to convince Doran to return to KL by road, accompanied by Trystane, who is supposed to get killed, all the while probably suspicious because Myrcella and Arys aren't present (and probably no single person who had accompanied Myrcella and Arys to Dorne).

3. Daemon returned to Dorne, didn't he? ;) He can still talk.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Here, I disagree. Doran was present for the Princess in the Tower conversation, and whatever conversation came afterwards. He knows Arianne's reasons for all she's done, and all she's capable of. Hotah wasn't a witness to all of this. He doesn't know why Arianne did what she did. He doesn't know how well she's capable of holding secrets (9 to 10 years), he doesn't know what moved her and what she believed about Doran, and all that is clarified.

Their look originally might have been the same, but here, Hotah and Doran start to differ.

Which Doran would personally never use, no, but I'm guessing that this is a tactic father and daughter agreed upon. Keep Balon's mind off of Arys and Myrcella for as long as is possible, so they won't have to answer difficult questions.

On the first point: I was thinking more about the fact that Doran is a man in his fifties, and more grounded in his habits. Although he knows that Arianne is no longer a child, I'm not sure he would fully...argh...(can't think of the right word here) accept it, as I guess? Understand it? I guess you know what I mean. To him in TPitT, Arianne was a little girl, and although he probably reminds himself constantly that she's not that little girl any more, old beliefs can linger on for quite a long time. Especially since not that much time has passed between this and the TPitT. But for all I know I might be wrong :cheers:

On the second point: I agree.

[Chebyshov]

3. Daemon returned to Dorne, didn't he? ;) He can still talk.

And we know it was Daemon that informed Nym about Oberyn in the first place, so his correspondence with the Snakes seems to be high (hence his demanding for their release/his arrest).

Their look originally might have been the same, but here, Hotah and Doran start to differ.

Agreed. Hotah also carries a torch around for Doran, so while his view of Arianne is definitely affectionate, he has a bias towards Doran, which may account for some of his thoughts about Arianne's "chastened" demeanor. Fortunately, Hotah doesn't really assert a lot of his own view into the situation, so we get a fairly objective understanding of what's going on here.

[Chebyshov]

"Delay, obscure, prevaricate. Oh, no one does that half so well as our brave uncle."

Delay:
Arianne reads the letter 9 years prior to QM plot, and not until the combination of Oberyn's death, the Snakes' imprisonments, and Quentyn's trip that she puts her plan in motion.

Obscure:

“Where?” He drew her close and nuzzled at her neck. “It’s time you told me the rest of the plan, don’t you think?”

She laughed, pushing him away. “No, it’s time we rode.”

Prevaricate:

“And what is it I want, ser?”

“The Sand Snakes freed. Vengeance for Oberyn and Elia. Do I know the song? You want a little taste of lion blood.”

That, and my birthright. I want Sunspear, and my father’s seat. I want Dorne. “I want justice.”

[Stannis's Lawyer]

"Delay, obscure, prevaricate. Oh, no one does that half so well as our brave uncle."

Delay:

Arianne reads the letter 9 years prior to QM plot, and not until the combination of Oberyn's death, the Snakes' imprisonments, and Quentyn's trip that she puts her plan in motion.

Obscure:

Prevaricate:

Nice!

It shows less because Doran is a prince, and the makes his delays pretty obvious, I guess.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yes, we finally see Arianne in the position she’s deserved this whole time. I’m actually wondering where Doran used to sit her in the years between her reading the letter and his departure to The Water Gardens. Even if he intended for Arianne to be the Queen, wouldn’t he have stuck her next to him to keep up the ruse that she’d inherit Dorne? My best guess is that Hotah remarks on her seating because as far as he knows, Arianne was just released from prison for her treason, so that’s the reason it’s notable.

We also see that it’s more than just Arianne’s place in the seat of high honor, she acts in this role as well…as Doran’s right-hand man if you will. She has been given quite the active role in Operation Feel-out-the-Swann. Keep in mind, both Doran and Arianne have heard rumors about Cersei’s plan to kill Trystane. They’re trying to corroborate this information, while keeping Myrcella out of sight until they get a read on his character.

Well, Arianne sitting in the place of high honour now is remarkable because Doran is present. During the feasts where Arianne's suitors were presented, I guess those men would have been sitting there? With Arianne next to them, probably.

For the rest, I am left wondering whether Doran attended much feasts that Arianne organized at all? If Doran wasn't present, Arianne could sit wherever she wanted, I guess..

[Stannis's Lawyer]

For the rest, I am left wondering whether Doran attended much feasts that Arianne organized at all? If Doran wasn't present, Arianne could sit wherever she wanted, I guess..

Doran doesn't seem to have left the Water Gardens for two years:

The captain understood. Two years ago, when they had left Sunspear for the peace and isolation of the Water Gardens, Prince Doran's gout had not been half so bad. In those days he had still walked, albeit slowly, leaning on a stick and grimacing with every step. The prince did not wish his enemies to know how feeble he had grown, and the Old Palace and the shadow city were full of eyes.

and

My charge was feasts and frolics, and the entertainment of distinguished guests. Oberyn would visit the Water Gardens twice a fortnight, Me, he summoned twice a year.

So Doran wouldn't have attended any feasts organized by Arianne. He didn't even attend his return feast.