Trial by Folly: The Arianne Martell Reread Project [TWOW Arianne I spoilers]

[Chebyshov]

One of the little griffins' name is even Ronald. RONALD. And Jon's father's name is ART-- ARMOND.

Anyway, no info about Arianne's companions. They seem to be too young to have meet Jon, though.

Now I'm picturing the Conningtons in matching Christmas sweaters.

Don't we know from reports about Arianne II TWOW that

JonCon is holding Lord Estermont hostage or something? Surely he'd recognize the guy and it's not like he'd have anything to gain by lying to Arianne about it

. Just a thought :dunno:.

[Julia Martell]

I'm a Tyrell apparently. Or a Doolittle. (Brown, brown, brown, brown, brown!)

The way JonCon was Lording it up in Griffin's Roost seemed quite convincing for everyone. He's not the issue.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Jon lived in KL for a while. People who lived in court (not only in ASOIAF) was a bit "recognisable" by others.

TWOIAF even mentions him by name, along with other two, as one of Rhaegar's supporters

He was also the Hand of the King and he leaded his army, he was probably all over Westeros. So, it's not like only a couple of people could tell that Jon is really Jon. Also, there are more people in Arianne's party than Elia and Daeron. And in TWOIAF is implied that

Jon was only Hand for a short few months, and spend that time leading an army after Robert, so there would have been little time to socialize as Hand in other castles than those that he would pass during his march.

But, as I stated earlier, I agree with the bigger thought behind this all, that Jon will totally be recognized, and that his identity is rather easily confirmed (either by people at Grififins Roost, or others..)

[HexMachina]

Now I'm picturing the Conningtons in matching Christmas sweaters.

Don't we know from reports about Arianne II TWOW that

JonCon is holding Lord Estermont hostage or something? Surely he'd recognize the guy and it's not like he'd have anything to gain by lying to Arianne about it

. Just a thought :dunno:.

He had requested the hostages from Estermont I believe, yes. Presumably this includes Lord Estermont, as he abandoned Stannis after the Blackwater. It also includes anither familiar face unless I am mistaken *coughcough* Sylva *coughcough*

[Julia Martell]

He had requested the hostages from Estermont I believe, yes. Presumably this includes Lord Estermont, as he abandoned Stannis after the Blackwater. It also includes anither familiar face unless I am mistaken *coughcough* Sylva *coughcough*

You don't need to spoiler that... it's in aDwD, and this is now a spoiler thread anyway. :cool4:

“There should be ships on Estermont. It is an island. “Haldon, send word to Mandrake to leave a garrison behind and bring the rest of his men over to Cape Wrath, along with any noble captives.”

“As you command, my lord. House Estermont has blood ties to both kings, as it happens. Good hostages.”

“Good ransoms,” said Homeless Harry, happily.”

Yeah, that would be Arianne's old dude blind date and her BFF Spotted Sylva. Arianne actually said he was a "pleasant fellow". Should be interesting.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yes, Jon's identity is not what is going to be hard to question. But, what I've realised is that no matter how hard they try, neither Arianne nor Daemon will succeed on their seduction, for reasons we know.

"He's impervious to Dorne!"

"We're doomed!"

[SeanF]

Yes, Jon's identity is not what is going to be hard to question. But, what I've realised is that no matter how hard they try, neither Arianne nor Daemon will succeed on their seduction, for reasons we know.

"He's impervious to Dorne!"

"We're doomed!"

I'd say Jon Con is a man who is married to his duty (putting Aegon on the Iron Throne). And, he knows his time is running out. So, even if he were interested in sex, Arianne and Ser Daemon would be wasting their time.

They should both concentrate on politics.

[Chebyshov]

I just realized all my posts said "Gerris and Drink" instead of "Gerris and Arch." That was stupid of me. :blushing:

I'd say Jon Con is a man who is married to his duty (putting Aegon on the Iron Throne). And, he knows his time is running out. So, even if he were interested in sex, Arianne and Ser Daemon would be wasting their time.

They should both concentrate on politics.

I'm assuming they both will, but it is Arianne's knee-jerk instinct. I think it's her idea of "the easy way." And it's hard to argue with her results.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm assuming they both will, but it is Arianne's knee-jerk instinct. I think it's her idea of "the easy way." And it's hard to argue with her results.

It's not just her "easy way". She's charming by nature. Some people are like that. You listen to them because they get you with their attitude, nice words and body language. I don't meaning seduction, they simply know their way to people. The fact that Arianne is a beautiful lady is a plus.

I suppose she's hoping that would "dazzle" Jon as well. Not because she's hoping to seduce him but because she believes that will help to her words. He's going to be little impressed by either her words or herself, tbh.

[Julia Martell]

It's not just her "easy way". She's charming by nature. Some people are like that. You listen to them because they get you with their attitude, nice words and body language. I don't meaning seduction, they simply know their way to people. The fact that Arianne is a beautiful lady is a plus.

I suppose she's hoping that would "dazzle" Jon as well. Not because she's hoping to seduce him but because she believes that will help to her words. He's going to be little impressed by either her words or herself, tbh.

Well, he seems pretty damn desperate for Doran's support, and the only way he's going to get it is through her. So I'm guessing he's going to be very concerned with her words. And completely and hilariously oblivious to her charms.

[Chebyshov]

It's not just her "easy way". She's charming by nature. Some people are like that. You listen to them because they get you with their attitude, nice words and body language. I don't meaning seduction, they simply know their way to people. The fact that Arianne is a beautiful lady is a plus.

I suppose she's hoping that would "dazzle" Jon as well. Not because she's hoping to seduce him but because she believes that will help to her words. He's going to be little impressed by either her words or herself, tbh.

Oh agreed that she has a charming persona even without obvious flirtatious gestures. But her questions about Jon's whoring habits and then her "words alone" remark suggest that she was probably going to give him the Balon Swann treatment, maybe talking about how elegant griffins are(?) and trying to touch him a bunch. I doubt when push comes to shove Arianne actually intends to sleep with him. I think, like with Swann, Arianne is also just hoping to make him uncomfortable and knock him off his game a little bit. The whole point is that she's trying to sniff out if he's lying about Aegon, so "matching with words alone" is more like, being able to parse out the truth if her body isn't distracting to him.

I'm sure he won't be receptive to her flirtations, but I don't think it's her words that need to impress. Jon really needs this alliance, far more than the Martells think they need his (until Gerris/Arch ring the bells, at least). Either way, the whole conversation should go a lot smoother if Arianne brings her dimpled, sandy-haired friend along.

As for whether or not Arianne does "parse out the truth," I'm of the mind that Jon has convinced himself of Aegon's legitimacy. So the real question is if Arianne and/or others ask the questions about the Pisswater Prince story that Jon may have never asked himself.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm sure he won't be receptive to her flirtations, but I don't think it's her words that need to impress. Jon really needs this alliance, far more than the Martells think they need his (until Gerris/Arch ring the bells, at least). Either way, the whole conversation should go a lot smoother if Arianne brings her dimpled, sandy-haired friend along.

Agree that they need the alliance, but I think that Jon won't want a marriage between A and Aegon because technically, they don't need to marry. He should have Dorne's help via blood, not marriage. And unless they hear Dany is dead, he's never going to leave Aegon to marry someone else (and yes, Aegon DOES listen to him).

There is also the assumption that Arianne will go and arrange her own marriage, which is definitely not going to happen. She doesn't have the authority to do that, adult woman or not. She's there to only check if Jon is real, and consequently, Aegon. Honestly, it's Jon the one who needs to impress HER and while Jon might have been quite the catch when he was younger, he's now like Stannis and Tywin's lovechild. The guy is a lord and can speak as a lord, also, I'm sure he's quite impressive. But... he needs to make an impression as a man.

If Jon wasn't sick, I suppose he would agree with marrying her himself ("close your eyes... think on Rhaegar..."), but in this case, I dunno how that would work because Jon would be marrying up to Dorne, Dorne wouldn't be marrying to his and Aegon's cause. I reckon this is the kind of marriage that gets first arranged on a table before going to the sept.

You know what, greyscale or not, I'm not completely discarding a marriage between them.

Well, he seems pretty damn desperate for Doran's support, and the only way he's going to get it is through her. So I'm guessing he's going to be very concerned with her words. And completely and hilariously oblivious to her charms.

I wouldn't say oblivious. He's not a child. I'm sure he has gotten his share of seduction in his life. It's going to be more like when Ami was caressing Jaime's golden hand and he was like "wth is she doing???". At least he's not going to laugh at her like Renly did. Because he never laughs :(

[Julia Martell]

For your entertainment, the real Dornish Master Plan:

Poor, poor Daemon must be so full of macho angst right now! Imagine how that conversation with Doran went, "Hey Ser Daemon. So, last time we spoke you yelled at me and I locked you in jail. And the time before that... it got awkward. But this time, good news! I'm sending you on a road trip with my daughter, the one that even Ricasso the Blind seneschal can tell you're not over.

"First you will ride into the desert, just like you used to do before fucking in caves, or wherever it is people fuck in deserts. It's winter, so it probably gets cold in the desert at night, but don't worry, there'll be cozy campfires. Then you'll take a boat ride, where you'll probably have plenty of opportunity to watch her standing looking pensively into the distance with the wind blowing in her hair. I'm guessing you have a thing for her hair. Who wouldn't? And then you'll be in a war zone, where I'm sure nothing bad will happen that will require you to defend her or make her appreciate how badass and strong you are.

"And also, here's some extremely sensitive information that I will share only with you. That way you'll be the only one she can ask for advice. Have fun!"

[SeanF]

For your entertainment, the real Dornish Master Plan:

Poor, poor Daemon must be so full of macho angst right now! Imagine how that conversation with Doran went, "Hey Ser Daemon. So, last time we spoke you yelled at me and I locked you in jail. And the time before that... it got awkward. But this time, good news! I'm sending you on a road trip with my daughter, the one that even Ricasso the Blind seneschal can tell you're not over.

"First you will ride into the desert, just like you used to do before fucking in caves, or wherever it is people fuck in deserts. It's winter, so it probably gets cold in the desert at night, but don't worry, there'll be cozy campfires. Then you'll take a boat ride, where you'll probably have plenty of opportunity to watch her standing

looking pensively into the distance with the wind blowing in her hair. I'm guessing you have a thing for her hair. Who wouldn't? And then you'll be in a war zone, where I'm sure nothing bad will happen that will require you to defend her or make her appreciate how badass and strong you are.

"And also, here's some extremely sensitive information that I will share only with you. That way you'll be the only one she can ask for advice. Have fun!"

It could have been worse. Imagine what Tywin would have done to a 15 year old illegitimate squire, who had just taken Cersei's virginity.

[HexMachina]

For your entertainment, the real Dornish Master Plan:

Poor, poor Daemon must be so full of macho angst right now! Imagine how that conversation with Doran went, "Hey Ser Daemon. So, last time we spoke you yelled at me and I locked you in jail. And the time before that... it got awkward. But this time, good news! I'm sending you on a road trip with my daughter, the one that even Ricasso the Blind seneschal can tell you're not over.

"First you will ride into the desert, just like you used to do before fucking in caves, or wherever it is people fuck in deserts. It's winter, so it probably gets cold in the desert at night, but don't worry, there'll be cozy campfires. Then you'll take a boat ride, where you'll probably have plenty of opportunity to watch her standing looking pensively into the distance with the wind blowing in her hair. I'm guessing you have a thing for her hair. Who wouldn't? And then you'll be in a war zone, where I'm sure nothing bad will happen that will require you to defend her or make her appreciate how badass and strong you are.

"And also, here's some extremely sensitive information that I will share only with you. That way you'll be the only one she can ask for advice. Have fun!"

So....Doran is playing cupid for Daemon and Arriane? ;)

ETA: Can I also just say how wonderful it has been reading everyones work? Some of these essays are incredible :) Thank you all for your work :)

[Julia Martell]

http://38.media.tumblr.com/e49065b2312f2b23012e382ff126a6ed/tumblr_miuqjsdIFs1s4q3q6o1_500.jpg

It could have been worse. Imagine what Tywin would have done to a 15 year old illegitimate squire, who had just taken Cersei's virginity.

That's kind of my point. It appears Daemon was "punished" by being made Oberyn's squire, which is probably what every little boy in Dorne dreams of. And apart from the cultural difference in the views on female virginity in Dorne versus the westerlands, Doran would have (probably rightly) held Arianne responsible in the main, and would probably also find a way to blame himself before blaming Daemon.

I think Doran just felt sorry for the kid. And he probably didn't realize that Arianne might actually have reciprocated Daemon's feelings (there's her damn Martell Communication Deficiency Syndrome™ rearing its ugly head again), hence the cupid playing nine years later when he realizes this is the closest thing to a healthy relationship she's ever had, maybe?

[Chebyshov]

I think Doran must see the value of having someone to be emotional support, especially given how poorly his own marriage went and how isolated he kept himself.

Anyway, Teora...prophetic or sugar high. Also, secret Targ zomg?

[Hrafntýr]

I think Doran must see the value of having someone to be emotional support, especially given how poorly his own marriage went and how isolated he kept himself.

Anyway, Teora...prophetic or sugar high. Also, secret Targ zomg?

Apropos the analysis of the cyvasse motif, and the excellent discussion of the danger of viewing people as abstracted "pieces" vs. engaging individuals and the emotional realities of relationships, I think that Doran may be very sensitive to, and perhaps have new appreciation for, the ties of loyalty and love that Arianne has created with her circle of friends. Ever since the revelations of "no one told," I've been thinking that the Queenmaker plotters may not have been "punished" by their various placements, but in fact tasked with some important responsibilities (the only one that is hard to reconcile is Sylva, though Estermont is poised to be important). And as you say here, Chebyshov, Doran seems to be recognizing that Arianne needs someone trustworthy who can serve as a confidante should she need it.

As for Teora, I say prophetic. But sugar might be a useful stimulus for generating prophetic dreams!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Poor Daemon. The whole Aegon arc is becoming the arc of the Sexually Frustrated... :(

[Chebyshov]

Ever since the revelations of "no one told," I've been thinking that the Queenmaker plotters may not have been "punished" by their various placements, but in fact tasked with some important responsibilities (the only one that is hard to reconcile is Sylva, though Estermont is poised to be important).

I think this is intriguing...do you see Mellario/Drey coming back into the plot then? I'm not sure how much I'd personally trust Garin Goldentooth, but if there's anyone that can find a suitable task for him, it's Doran.

Poor Daemon. The whole Aegon arc is becoming the arc of the Sexually Frustrated... :(

:lol: Omg, this is perfect, especially when you've got the likes of Joss Hood and Feathers displaying interest with Elia. Someone needs to get laid in this plot-line! Maybe we'll find out that Sylva is quite sated with Estermont?