Was Jon Snow raped by Ygritte?

[Mladen]

I saw no mayor problem with what happened between Jon and Ygritte, despite considering it a form of rape. I'm funky like that.

Is this irony, or...? Because just implying that position has something to do with whether it should be considered rape or not shows a clear lack of understanding about the subject...

I don't think it is all about position, but also about POV that shows zero evidence of Jon being violated in any way, Qhorin's orders, the fact that he didn't have had to sleep with her. But the body language does matter in this situation and shows that Jon wasn't being raped in any way.

[Queen.Sansa.Lannister]

The one thing that makes me lose faith in equality sometimes. If it's a rape against a woman, everyone loses their minds(as they should). If it's against a man, people laugh. Apparently men can't deny sex to a woman, especially a pretty woman.

Answering to the OP, I think that yes, Jon was raped. He clearly didn't want to break his vows, and Ygritte forced him into ot, by saying in front of Mance that they were doing it, basically serving as the last defense between Jon and a band of angry wildlings. Remember, that is the only thing that keeps Mance from killing Jon when they are at the Fist of the First Men. "Two hearts that beat as one". If it wasn't for that, Mance would have killed Jon, and Ygritte used that to rape Jon, because she was attracted to him, and he wasn't going to do anything with her in a normal situation(see Melisandre) because of his vows.

:agree:

I don't know what sketchy means, but I agree all the same :D

But by saying that to Mance I see it as she was freeing Jon from any obligation to have sex with her. He didn't need to after that, because Mance thought he was anyway.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

As was said before, Jon wasn't threatened into sex, he could have found another way to prove his loyalty. And being on top actually means that he was an active participant in sexual intercourse, thus speaking of rape is rather nonsensical. And on top of that, we have Jon's POV, in case people have forgotten it. And his POV speaks nothing about him being raped, or feeling violated.

That's a very, very, very weird definition of rape.

And no, "she could have found another way" is not a good defence.

[Mladen]

That's a very, very, very weird definition of rape.

And no, "she could have found another way" is not a good defence.

Are we know entering that area? Because I am in no mood to squabble over what constitutes the rape.

The thing is that Jon wasn't forced on sex, he was forced to prove his loyalty, and he could have found a different way. Beside that, Jon had Qhorin's orders or advice to live with them and be one of them, which always meant possibility of sex happening. All of this was known to Jon. He went and did the act, not because he was forced on it to choose between life and death, but because he wanted also to pursue the mission at hand. So, in many ways, this wasn't forced intercourse. And again, I repeat, Jon's POV, his thoughts on it... Nothing indicates rape here...

ETA:

I idiotically forgot the most important thing here - Jon wants the sex. He isn't coerced into sexual intercourse with Ygritte, as he actually wanted to do it. He was just facilitated into doing it, and his POV pours out that he indeed wanted it.

[The Fourth Head]

As was said before, Jon wasn't threatened into sex, he could have found another way to prove his loyalty. And being on top actually means that he was an active participant in sexual intercourse, thus speaking of rape is rather nonsensical. And on top of that, we have Jon's POV, in case people have forgotten it. And his POV speaks nothing about him being raped, or feeling violated.

The situations are completely different. Sansa perhaps wasn't vocal about her refusal, but her body language spoke volumes to Tyrion. Jon's body language was basically to, apologies for lack of delicacy, hop on her and do the act. Jon perhaps didn't want to break the vows but he always knew that he will have to do something shady as was said to him by Qhorin. So, this was just matter of Jon wanting to have sex with her but having moral dilemma about it. That being said, this isn't a rape, because of multiple factors that include his body language, his libido, decision to do the best he can what he was ordered by Qhorin, his POV after the intercourse etc.

Oh we've gone "there" have we :frown5:

IIRC, there is no actual evidence of any threat made to Sansa - it is heavily, socially implied, same as with Jon, no more, no less, but if there is an in-book quote, I missed it. I don't think she was in any more danger than Jon was.

Jon was clearly reluctant. Ygritte had made advances on a number of occasions. He would not have broken his vows if she hadn't forced him to and that nearly cost him his life back at CB. That is sufficient grounds IMO to equate this situation to that of Sansa - reluctance on moral grounds.

The other problem was social expectations when it came to "attractiveness" - Ygritte was considered attractive by the wildlings and she considered herself attractive. His unwillingness alone was enough to endanger him, so he had no choice but to persuade himself into it, despite his sexual ambivalence (he was not horning after her, if I recall but called her "not unattractive") and his clear moral reluctance, and had to enter into the act willingly to save his neck. Willingness was not optional- it was obligatory.

Sansa on the other hand was not expected to have sex by her partner - Tyrion, largely because of his own insecure body image. When it came to the moment, she was undressing herself and he made it clear to her that she did not have to have sex. She did not need to pretend she was attracted to him, she did not have to have sex with him to save her life, so she did not.

claiming Sansa having sex with Tyrion would have been rape and that Jon and Ygritte would not have been is a polarise attitude I can't hold with. Sansa did not choose Lancel because desirability was not the point. She didn't want to lose her virginity to a Lannister in a charmless arranged marriage, and Tyrion was no worse than Lancel. However, the social expectation / threat was enough for her to comply. Had she complied with Lancel, would that have been any worse than Jon?

I fail to see how it would have been- so from that perspective, calling Sansa/Tyrion "rape" and Jon/Ygritte "not rape" boils down to an assumption that the difference was Tyrion's physique which is absent from the text and hints at discrimination.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Yes. Ygritte coerced Jon into having sex with her using her position as wildling and Jon as suspect, captive to do so. But Jon clearly desired her sexually and wanted to have sex with her from that perspective even if he also didn't want to because it would break his vows and he wouldn't if he wasn't coersed. But that alone is enough to classify it as rape. As far as rapes go there are plenty of morally worse ones but it does qualify.

[Mladen]

Oh we've gone "there" have we :frown5:

IIRC, there is no actual evidence of any threat made to Sansa - it is heavily, socially implied, same as with Jon, no more, no less, but if there is an in-book quote, I missed it. I don't think she was in any more danger than Jon was.

Jon was clearly reluctant. Ygritte had made advances on a number of occasions. He would not have broken his vows if she hadn't forced him to and that nearly cost him his life back at CB. That is sufficient grounds IMO to equate this situation to that of Sansa - reluctance on moral grounds.

The other problem was social expectations when it came to "attractiveness" - Ygritte was considered attractive by the wildlings and she considered herself attractive. His unwillingness alone was enough to endanger him, so he had no choice but to persuade himself into it, despite his sexual ambivalence (he was not horning after her, if I recall but called her "not unattractive") and his clear moral reluctance, and had to enter into the act willingly to save his neck.

Sansa on the other hand was not expected to have sex by her partner. When it came to the moment, she was undressing herself and he made it clear she did not have to have sex. She did not need to pretend she was attracted to him, she did not have to have sex with him to save her life, so she did not.

claiming Sansa having sex with Tyrion would have been rape and that Jon and Ygritte would not have been is a polarise attitude I can't hold with. Sansa did not choose Lancel because desirability was not the point. She didn't want to lose her virginity to a Lannister in a charmless arranged marriage, and Tyrion was no worse than Lancel. However, the social expectation / threat was enough for her to comply. Had she complied with Lancel, would that have been any worse than Jon?

I fail to see how it would have been- so from that perspective, calling Sansa/Tyrion "rape" and Jon/Ygritte "not rape" boils down to an assumption that the difference was Tyrion's physique which is absent from the text and hints at discrimination.

Actually,

“I am your husband. You can take off your armor now.”

“And my clothing?”

“That too.” He waved his wine cup at her. “My lord father has commanded me to consummate this marriage.”

When he finally realized that she had no answer for him, Tyrion Lannister drained the last of his wine. “I understand,” he said bitterly. “Get in the bed, Sansa. We need to do our duty.”

So, Sansa was threatened with intercourse and Tyrion made an advance until he realizes he can't basically rape her.

Jon was reluctant, but his reluctance can't be equated with Sansa's clear refusal. Jon's reluctance is rooted not in breaking the oaths as much as in making a bastard, something he promised he will never do. Jon was reluctant, but he wanted it. His POV after the intercourse is basically "I am lying myself, I wanted it". So, equating these situations is rather nonsensical for there is a clear distinction in desire and consent.

And this has nothing to do with physical attractiveness. Sansa, as quotes had shown, was expected to have had sex with Tyrion. This all comes down to what Sansa and Jon felt about situations they were in. Basically, Jon wanted it, Sansa didn't. Jon actively participated in it, Sansa's body language was saying resounding NO.

[The Fourth Head]

The thing is that Jon wasn't forced on sex, he was forced to prove his loyalty, and he could have found a different way. Beside that, Jon had Qhorin's orders or advice to live with them and be one of them, which always meant possibility of sex happening. All of this was known to Jon. He went and did the act, not because he was forced on it to choose between life and death, but because he wanted also to pursue the mission at hand. So, in many ways, this wasn't forced intercourse.

Lets not beat about the bush here. had Tyrion not spoken up, Sansa would have pursued the mission at hand too, no matter how unsavoury. I'm not trying to excuse anything, but in terms of highlighting the differences, I'm struggling to see it.

[Trigger Warning]

What a horrible person Ygritte is, raping innocent and helpless Jon like that.

If the roles were reversed people would be all over it.

[BastardlyRock]

To be fair, I can't speak for Jon, but if it were me, would it have been rape? :lmao: No.

[Mladen]

Lets not beat about the bush here. had Tyrion not spoken up, Sansa would have pursued the mission at hand too, no matter how unsavoury. I'm not trying to excuse anything, but in terms of highlighting the differences, I'm struggling to see it.

No, she would lay down being basically dead, while Tyrion would have raped her. That is what would have happened. Her entire body language was saying "no", which ultimately Tyrion got it. As for differences, I imagine that wanting and not wanting sex in these two cases are a clear difference that anyone can see. Because no one can argue that Jon didn't want sex. He had dilemma, yes, but he wanted it. Sansa, on the other hand, didn't want it. It is that easy.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

As was said before, Jon wasn't threatened into sex, he could have found another way to prove his loyalty. And being on top actually means that he was an active participant in sexual intercourse, thus speaking of rape is rather nonsensical. And on top of that, we have Jon's POV, in case people have forgotten it. And his POV speaks nothing about him being raped, or feeling violated.

The situations are completely different. Sansa perhaps wasn't vocal about her refusal, but her body language spoke volumes to Tyrion. Jon's body language was basically to, apologies for lack of delicacy, hop on her and do the act. Jon perhaps didn't want to break the vows but he always knew that he will have to do something shady as was said to him by Qhorin. So, this was just matter of Jon wanting to have sex with her but having moral dilemma about it. That being said, this isn't a rape, because of multiple factors that include his body language, his libido, decision to do the best he can what he was ordered by Qhorin, his POV after the intercourse etc.

No. No. Just no.

First of all, if Jon was biologically aroused by a red-haired 18-year-old wanting to bang him, I can only say that he has a normal, functioning penis.

Second, he KILLED QHORIN HALFHAND, the most hated ranger since Benjen left, and that didn't get their trust. So, unless he has the Horn of Winter inside of his pockets, I don't see a better way of entering the wildling army than marrying a wildling.

Third, you believe Ygritte was going to lie? She was just going to be like "Oh no, I know you want to keep the vows you forsoke with your brother's blood, therefore I shall lie about f**king you to everyone, and, since you're so faithful to those murdering crows, I'll even say you have a big c**k". Because no, just no.

Fourth, Sansa and Jon showed the same amount of body language for both sides. Sansa asked "is this the time when I spread my legs for him?" or something like that, and, as you say, Jon was the one on top. So, if Sansa opened her legs, it wouldn't have been rape, because, even though she CLEARLY didn't want to, hey, she opened her legs so c**k's in!

I asked you this in the other thread, Mladen, and have to ask again: Do you believe a man can be raped by a woman, especially if the woman is pretty? Because if you can't admit that Jon's POV shows his clear resistance to having sex (at first, after the first night his conflict is deepened by his falling in love with Ygritte), I really don't know how you can see Sansa's almost equal situation as resistance.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I do find the Jon-Ygritte thing uncomfortable, a situation highlighted when you reverse the genders, but I don't think that it counts as rape.

To count as rape, you need three things:

- Sex. Ygritte's labia was penetrated by at least the tip of Jon's penis. So yes.

- Lack of consent. This is the focus of the thread, and is questionable: was Jon in a position to freely consent?

- The rapist needs to lack a (reasonable) belief that the victim was consenting. Did Ygritte reasonably believe Jon was consenting? I think she did.

So the rape charge falls over on the third element. It's the second element that makes the thing dodgy though.

[opinionn]

I read the first couple sentences of some posts and got cancer. No this is not in any way, rape.

[juanml82]

No, she would lay down being basically dead, while Tyrion would have raped her. That is what would have happened. Her entire body language was saying "no", which ultimately Tyrion got it. As for differences, I imagine that wanting and not wanting sex in these two cases are a clear difference that anyone can see. Because no one can argue that Jon didn't want sex. He had dilemma, yes, but he wanted it. Sansa, on the other hand, didn't want it. It is that easy.

The irony is that Jon wanted to have sex but (initially) refused because of his sense of duty while Sansa didn't want to have sex but (initially) tried to convince herself of doing it because of her sense of duty

[sj4iy]

No.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I read the first couple sentences of some posts and got cancer. No this is not in any way, rape.

It's probably not rape, but it is sex with an element of uncomfortable coercion.

Reverse the genders, people.

[Mladen]

No. No. Just no.

First of all, if Jon was biologically aroused by a red-haired 18-year-old wanting to bang him, I can only say that he has a normal, functioning penis.

Second, he KILLED QHORIN HALFHAND, the most hated ranger since Benjen left, and that didn't get their trust. So, unless he has the Horn of Winter inside of his pockets, I don't see a better way of entering the wildling army than marrying a wildling.

Third, you believe Ygritte was going to lie? She was just going to be like "Oh no, I know you want to keep the vows you forsoke with your brother's blood, therefore I shall lie about f**king you to everyone, and, since you're so faithful to those murdering crows, I'll even say you have a big c**k". Because no, just no.

Fourth, Sansa and Jon showed the same amount of body language for both sides. Sansa asked "is this the time when I spread my legs for him?" or something like that, and, as you say, Jon was the one on top. So, if Sansa opened her legs, it wouldn't have been rape, because, even though she CLEARLY didn't want to, hey, she opened her legs so c**k's in!

I asked you this in the other thread, Mladen, and have to ask again: Do you believe a man can be raped by a woman, especially if the woman is pretty? Because if you can't admit that Jon's POV shows his clear resistance to having sex (at first, after the first night his conflict is deepened by his falling in love with Ygritte), I really don't know how you can see Sansa's almost equal situation as resistance.

And I have been polite enough to have answered it there, as I am going to answer it now . Yes, I do believe that a man can be raped, regardless whether woman is objectively beautiful. Do I believe Jon was raped? Absolutely not.

Jon wanted to have sex with her. There is no debate about it and it is against the canon to say so, since Jon shows clear desire to have sex with her and POV after it shows that he wanted it all along, basically being all "I wanted it, whom am I lying".

Sansa on the other hand, didn't spread the legs, she kept her eyes closed, trembling, showing the clear discomfort and fear, upon which Tyrion decided not to rape her. Sansa and Jon weren't in the same situation, because Jon himself admits he wanted to have sex with Ygritte and feels no violated. Sansa would have felt violated. Jon gave a consent to have sex, and he wasn't even forced to do it, Sansa was. There is a clear distinction between what Jon and Sansa wanted to do.

People are confusing moral dilemma and consent here. Basically Jon had some scruples re having sex with Ygritte, but that doesn't mean that he didn't want it as he himself admits he did want it. His train of thoughts in those chapters shows that he wanted it and that he willingly do it. That doesn't mean that he is not feeling some shame due to his vows, but he decided to have sex with her, and that is that. So, Jon feels some shame about having sex due to broken vows, but at the end, he is rather clear about this - HE WANTED IT. Something no one who has read the series can say about Sansa.

ETA:

Here is how Jon feels about the first night.

Two hearts that beat as one. Mance Rayder’s mocking words rang bitter in his head. Jon had seldom felt so confused. I have no choice, he’d told himself the first time, when she slipped beneath his sleeping skins. If I refuse her, she will know me for a turncloak. I am playing the part the Halfhand told me to play.

His body had played the part eagerly enough. His lips on hers, his hand sliding under her doeskin shirt to find a breast, his manhood stiffening when she rubbed her mound against it through their clothes. My vows, he’d thought, remembering the weirwood grove where he had said them, the nine great white trees in a circle, the carved red faces watching, listening. But her fingers were undoing his laces and her tongue was in his mouth and her hand slipped inside his smallclothes and brought him out, and he could not see the weirwoods anymore, only her. She bit his neck and he nuzzled hers, burying his nose in her thick red hair. Lucky, he thought, she is lucky, fire-kissed. “Isn’t that good?” she whispered as she guided him inside her. She was sopping wet down there, and no maiden, that was plain, but Jon did not care. His vows, her maidenhood, none of it mattered, only the heat of her, the mouth on his, the finger that pinched at his nipple. “Isn’t that sweet?” she said again. “Not so fast, oh, slow, yes, like that. There now, there now, yes, sweet, sweet. You know nothing, Jon Snow, but I can show you. Harder now. Yessss.

A part, he tried to remind himself afterward. I am playing a part. I had to do it once, to prove I’d abandoned my vows. I had to make her trust me. It need never happen again. He was still a man of the Night’s Watch, and a son of Eddard Stark. He had done what needed to be done, proved what needed to be proven.

The proving had been so sweet, though, and Ygritte had gone to sleep beside him with her head against his chest, and that was sweet as well, dangerously sweet. He thought of the weirwoods again, and the words he’d said before them. It was only once, and it had to be. Even my father stumbled once, when he forgot his marriage vows and sired a bastard. Jon vowed to himself that it would be the same with him. It will never happen again.

It happened twice more that night, and again in the morning, when she woke to find him hard.

[The Fourth Head]

Actually,

So, Sansa was threatened with intercourse and Tyrion made an advance until he realizes he can't basically rape her.

Jon was reluctant, but his reluctance can't be equated with Sansa's clear refusal. Jon's reluctance is rooted not in breaking the oaths as much as in making a bastard, something he promised he will never do. Jon was reluctant, but he wanted it. His POV after the intercourse is basically "I am lying myself, I wanted it". So, equating these situations is rather nonsensical for there is a clear distinction in desire and consent.

And this has nothing to do with physical attractiveness. Sansa, as quotes had shown, was expected to have had sex with Tyrion. This all comes down to what Sansa and Jon felt about situations they were in. Basically, Jon wanted it, Sansa didn't. Jon actively participated in it, Sansa's body language was saying resounding NO.

An instruction is not a threat. The consequences of non compliance are entirely absent, Mance told them to throw him off the wall, I think, if they suspected he was disloyal. That was not implicit and there were men looking for any excuse to kill the crow.

It's all wrapped up with Tyrion projecting his own insecurities with regards to his body, insecurities which Ygritte was entirely lacking. She expected him to desire her and would have suspected his loyalty had he not- and Jon knew it. As I say, had Sansa slept with Lancel, would that have been rape or not?

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

uhh...

No.