Was Jon Snow raped by Ygritte?

[OrangeStallion]

Jon was a spy. Now, a spy can be raped, if there is no consent the clear cut answer is that it is rape. But the issue of coerced consent is much muddier with a spy because they are fundamentally misrepresenting the pressures being applied on them. So no, Ygritte was not guilty of rape Because Jon was denying her a full understanding of the situation and why he was reluctant to being sexual activities.

This is the best defense of the no rape camp I think. And I think he's probably right^ It is worth discussing, however

[Mikkel]

This is the best defense of the no rape camp I think. And I think he's probably right^ It is worth discussing, however

It certainly makes Ygritte's actions less clear-cut, though I think an argument can still be made that she knew Jon was reluctant, even if she didn't exactly know why. It's true she didn't know he was a Night's Watch spy, but she did know that he was being accused of exactly that, and what the consequences would be if Mance wasn't convinced he was legitimately "gone Wildling".

So in that respect, she still abused her position of relative power over Jon, a position which was exactly the same whether Jon truly was a spy or not.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Ironic theory cause Ygritte thought that's what he was going to do, cause he had managed to "take" her.

Of course, Sam's (tv only?) quote, "I can't steal her. She's not a goat."

[SeanF]

True, but that doesn't make it any less false. In fact, that's exactly why I brought it up in the first place. It's right up there with all the disgusting variations on claiming the victim was "asking for it" for various reasons that I don't want to get into details with.

But apparently, the belief that a woman can't really rape a man is still prevalent, even among posters on this board - something that quite surprises me. In fact, a lot of people still seem to find it a laughable concept.

As for the fact that Jon eventually comes to love Ygritte, this isn't much of an excuse, Dany also comes to love Drogo and yet that started out as what I'd call rape, too.

culture is in many ways what many (or at least, I) would call a rape culture, so that Ygritte sees nothing wrong with using implicit death-threats to get Jon to consent to sex is hardly surprising - but it's still rape.

Don't get me wrong, it's good for Jon that he wasn't traumatized by the experience, and I can understand if that's why a lot of people are having a hard time seeing why this is even a discussion worth having, but like others have pointed out - reverse the genders, and you'd have people calling for the offenders penis on a platter (figuratively speaking).

It's a matter of law in England and Wales that a man cannot be raped by a woman, and I believe in many other jurisdictions.

Jon wasn't someone who eventually came to love the person who sexually abused him. He loved Ygritte

from the start, which is why he let her go free. So far as we can tell, she loved him. He certainly thinks so. Ultimately, I'm willing to let Jon be the judge of whether he was abused.

[OrangeStallion]

It's a matter of law in England and Wales that a man cannot be raped by a woman, and I believe in many other jurisdictions.

Jon wasn't someone who eventually came to love the person who sexually abused him. He loved Ygritte

from the start, which is why he let her go free. So far as we can tell, she loved him. He certainly thinks so. Ultimately, I'm willing to let Jon be the judge of whether he was abused.

Stockholm syndrome, maybe?

Also, a sexist law

[SeanF]

Stockholm syndrome, maybe?

Also, a sexist law

My impression is that their relationship is very much one of equals, rather than one being subservient to the other.

Stockholm Syndrome would describe Daenerys, relative to her brother, prior to her wedding.

[Mithras]

It is absurd to insert 21st century notions/definitons to a fictional world where they have no hold. I think this is a great sin against the author to do this and it poisons the story.

[SeanF]

I wouldn't be too absolute. See Tyrion and Lysa. Though more often nobles who regret their arranged marriage are disappointed on not marrying their preference from people of their own social class.

Lysa could have refused to marry Jon Arryn. She told Sansa that she wished she'd refused, but hadn't expected him to live as long as he did.

[OrangeStallion]

My impression is that their relationship is very much one of equals, rather than one being subservient to the other.

Stockholm Syndrome would describe Daenerys, relative to her brother, prior to her wedding.

But doesn't Jon eventually become subservient to Ygritte's sexual desires?

I agree with the Dany point

[Mikkel]

It's a matter of law in England and Wales that a man cannot be raped by a woman, and I believe in many other jurisdictions.

Not disputing that, though I am wondering whether that's anything but a sign of how far we, as a society, still have to go. I say we, though for the record I am neither English nor Welsh, but "we" as humans, even in the parts of the world where gender issues have been on the agenda for decades.

Jon wasn't someone who eventually came to love the person who sexually abused him. He loved Ygritte

from the start, which is why he let her go free. So far as we can tell, she loved him. He certainly thinks so. Ultimately, I'm willing to let Jon be the judge of whether he was abused.

I don't think he loved her from the start, it was more a case of his social conditioning that prevented him killing a woman.

As for the victim not realizing they were abused also see Dany/Drogo.

[OrangeStallion]

It is absurd to insert 21st century notions/definitons to a fictional world where they have no hold. I think this is a great sin against the author to do this and it poisons the story.

The fact that we are thinking about the situation as a situation and not as an event accepted or not in a time and place in history or in fiction or no, is what GRRM would want us to do. Not conform and accept the culturally accepted customs and beliefs, but to analyze them as events in and of themselves.

"The greatest thing to write about is the human heart and the conflict with itself"

I think GRRM would welcome a discussion on the topic

[OrangeStallion]

Heck stockholm syndrome could be Dany after her wedding too

[Lion Of The Night]

It is absurd to insert 21st century notions/definitons to a fictional world where they have no hold. I think this is a great sin against the author to do this and it poisons the story.

Its not the author its us. I for one applaud GRRM for writing such conflicting moralities into his story. It makes for introspection.

However Like I said before, you can not judge the past with todays morals.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It is absurd to insert 21st century notions/definitons to a fictional world where they have no hold. I think this is a great sin against the author to do this and it poisons the story.

I agree with you. The problem is when we apply those morals to SOME characters while we don't to another ones. If is rape for some, then is for ALL of them. If it is not rape for some, it is not for the rest either.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Lysa could have refused to marry Jon Arryn. She told Sansa that she wished she'd refused, but hadn't expected him to live as long as he did.

The thing is Lysa desired to be able to marry Littlefinger and have his children which went against the customs of the medieval society she lived in. With results like the abortion. She couldn't get away with what she wanted because of her society, father and of course her desires being one sided but there they were from a noble girl. Similiarly noble Tyrion wanted as a wife a regular girl and that ended in tragedy as well.

I think the point is that regardless of the social system's influence there will be some pushback by some and people aren't pawns to it or perfectly influenced. Especially when love and is irrationality is involved.

And yes she did regret not refusing to marry Jon Arryn. Which again raises the issue of choice in arranged marriages and regrets of the individuals involved of following through the arranged choice.

[Mikkel]

It is absurd to insert 21st century notions/definitons to a fictional world where they have no hold. I think this is a great sin against the author to do this and it poisons the story.

Au contraire, the book is written for a modern audience, by a modern author in modern times (even if we're talking 20th century rather than 21st for the first couple of books :P).

In any case, the culture clash we're presented with is not just one of time, even our own world has vastly different opinions and definitions on many subjects, even the one we're discussing here, though I really don't want to go any further down that particular road.

[SeanF]

Not disputing that, though I am wondering whether that's anything but a sign of how far we, as a society, still have to go. I say we, though for the record I am neither English nor Welsh, but "we" as humans, even in the parts of the world where gender issues have been on the agenda for decades.

I don't think he loved her from the start, it was more a case of his social conditioning that prevented him killing a woman.

As for the victim not realizing they were abused also see Dany/Drogo.

It's easier to argue that Dany was abused because she was only 13, when she was married to Drogo. She had no choice in that marriage. Even then I would hesitate to assert that either party thought their relationship was abusive.

[OrangeStallion]

The thing is Lysa desired to be able to marry Littlefinger and have his children which went against the customs of the medieval society she lived in. With results like the abortion. She couldn't get away with what she wanted because of her society, father and of course her desires being one sided but there they were from a noble girl. Similiarly noble Tyrion wanted as a wife a regular girl.

I think the point is that regardless of the social system's influence there will be some pushback by some and people aren't pawns to it or perfectly influenced.

And yes she did regret not refusing to marry Jon Arryn. Which again raises the issue of choice in arranged marriages and regrets of the individuals involved.

Lysa also raped LF when he was drunk, fraudulently presenting herself as cat while Baelysh was incapacitated. If the theory holds true. The fact that baelish married her later is irrelevant.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Lysa also raped LF when he was drunk, fraudulently presenting herself as cat while Baelysh was incapacitated. If the theory holds true.

yeah she did, and?

The fact that baelish married her later is irrelevant.

I don't get your point. Irrelevant to what.

[Lord Freypie]

It's a matter of law in England and Wales that a man cannot be raped by a woman, and I believe in many other jurisdictions.

It's the case in many countries I think.

IIRC the juridic definition in France still implies that there should be penetration of the victim.

So if a woman can rape a man, normal genital sex between them can't be more than sexual abuse.

It's why using the word 'rape' to describe that kind of situation, in a forum read by people from many different countries, can be very tricky.