Tywin was not that bad of a father to Tyrion.

[John Doe]

The difference between Cat, Cersei and Lysa is not who their fathers were but who they were married to. Ned was a devoted husband, an Old God worshipper who went to the trouble of building her a Sept and treated her as an equal. She hit the jackpot.

:agree:

[Ramsay Gimp]

Motive and subject are the different circumstances. Jon Arryn may have been old, but he was a good man for all we know, who always treated his wife with love and respect and was a good husband. The motive was to find Lysa not only a good husband, but one that could protect her and would protect the Riverlands and House Tulley.

Robert Baratheon was a great warrior, but a renowned whoremonger. Jaime offered to kill him on several occasions. He dishonored his wife and "goosed her" (using the "r" word is going to get the thread closed) on several occasions. His greatest contribution as King was making Jon Arryn his Hand. The only reason why Tywin agreed to the match was political ambition, his thirst for power.

I hope this illustrates the different circumstances involved, and why some people see the actions as not being similar except superficially.

I have no doubt that Hoster would have married Lysa to Robert in a heartbeat.

Robert had an overall good reputation when he married Cersei, womanizing aside. He was a very popular and charismatic person or else he never would have become King in the first place. You're making it seem as if he was an unsavvory figure, but even Cersei was initially excited about the marriage. And Robert's treatment of Cersei was matched by her treatment of him. Tywin had no way of knowing Robert would hit her, or that he would never move on from Lyanna, and there is no concept of marital rape in Westeros.

There's plenty to condemn Tywin as a parent and human being, but trying to make his daughter Queen was not some evil/abusive act.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Tywins attitude towards Tyrion in his dying words is entirely different, or the showdown on the privy. Tywins in complete control and never once considers the idea that Tyrion might have grievances with him, despite just putting Tyrion through a humiliating trial and never once giving Tyrion the impression he'd send him to the wall, not scapegoat him. By contrast Hoster Tully is racked by guilt and the idea the abortion contributed to Lysas unhappiness.

That's how I know Tywin didn't feel bad, he didn't even consider any wrongdoing as a possibility. That typifies Tywin, that he didn't think the red wedding would end up in blowback that he couldn't stage manage his way out of, well, he's an arrogant asshole.

Is this serious? You are comparing Tywins reactions with his pant down and a crossbow aimed at him to Hoster who is clearly non compos mentis as he fades in and out of consciousness and has been on his deathbed for sometime.

And I'm a little confused as your argument seems to be saying that Hoster is the better father because he feels remorse about being a bad father when it is too later to do anything about it?

That might make him a better person, but not a better father.

[stangles]

He punished Tysha, a commoner, who married his son. Had a peasant married Cersei he would have been killed. According to Daeron he got sent to the Wall (life imprisonment) for just sleeping with the Mathias Rowans daughter.

Lords don't treat the peasants very nicely. Westeros is a caste system. We rightfully view it as repugnant but they accept how Lords treat peasants.

Rowans daughter called it rape to avoid being punished. Rowan was punishing a 'rapist'. Tyrion never said anything bad about Tysha.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I have no doubt that Hoster would have married Lysa to Robert in a heartbeat.

Robert had an overall good reputation when he married Cersei, womanizing aside. He was a very popular and charismatic person or else he never would have become King in the first place. You're making it seem as if he was an unsavvory figure, but even Cersei was initially excited about the marriage. And Robert's treatment of Cersei was matched by her treatment of him. Tywin had no way of knowing Robert would hit her, or that he would never move on from Lyanna, and there is no concept of marital rape in Westeros.

There's plenty to condemn Tywin as a parent and human being, but trying to make his daughter Queen was not some evil/abusive act.

I'm glad you know Hoster Tully so well. How can I argue with your rock solid opinion derived from thin air?

How can you have an overall good reputation if you have to put womanizing aside? Aerys had a great reputation too, if you put insanity aside. It really has nothing to do with Robert anyways. It has to do with the motives involved. Tywin's motive was self-serving, Hoster's was not. Why do I believe this? Because Tywin has a history of self serving actions and Hoster does not. Because Tywin's children hate his living guts while Hoster's children remember him fondly, dispite his mistakes. Because Tywin has a history of machiavellian political machinations while Hoster does not.

If greed and lust for power are not evil and destructive, then what is?

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Robert had an overall good reputation when he married Cersei, womanizing aside. He was a very popular and charismatic person or else he never would have become King in the first place. You're making it seem as if he was an unsavvory figure, but even Cersei was initially excited about the marriage.

Consider this. Tywin was the hand of the King. Whatever you think of him, I think everyone would agree that he is smart, and that he had access to a good deal of information. Do you think he was unaware of Robert's whoring? What exactly is Tywin's view, publicly at least, of whoring? What is Tywin's opinion of his son's whoring? But this is okay in his son-in-law, right???? Why? Because he is a frickin King, that's why!

[Stark Vader]

Is this serious? You are comparing Tywins reactions with his pant down and a crossbow aimed at him to Hoster who is clearly non compos mentis as he fades in and out of consciousness and has been on his deathbed for sometime.

And I'm a little confused as your argument seems to be saying that Hoster is the better father because he feels remorse about being a bad father when it is too later to do anything about it?

That might make him a better person, but not a better father.

What did you think Hoster would be able to do about it. Big fat nothing. At least expressing remorse shows he's spent some time reflecting on his actions and maybe learnt from them. He never rushed or pushed Edmure into a marriage the way he did his brother or Lysa.

Tywin doesn't learn from how he's treated Tyrion at all, he does the same heavyhanded,brutal manipulation a of him over and over. He sees Tyrions heartbroken and continues to call tysha a whore.

It's also the manner in which they did it, if Lysa was pregnant out of wedlock she's shamed her family, she's brought down the prospects of the entire family. She could end up destitute somewhere. He did wgat he thoight was right given the values of the time.

What Tywin did always involved tabloid style scandal and humiliation. It was his thing to humiliate you in front of everyone, to lower you which somehow in his mind improved the Lannister image, contrast with Hoster who did what he did privately and scrambled to continue with getting Lysa a good match and give her powers as lady of the vale.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I'm glad you know Hoster Tully so well. How can I argue with your rock solid opinion derived from thin air?

How can you have an overall good reputation if you have to put womanizing aside? Aerys had a great reputation too, if you put insanity aside. It really has nothing to do with Robert anyways. It has to do with the motives involved. Tywin's motive was self-serving, Hoster's was not. Why do I believe this? Because Tywin has a history of self serving actions and Hoster does not. Because Tywin's children hate his living guts while Hoster's children remember him fondly, dispite his mistakes. Because Tywin has a history of machiavellian political machinations while Hoster does not.

I know Hoster arranged powerful marriages for both of his daughters, including to Brandon "blood on my sword" Stark, a hot-tempered womanizer. I also know he forced Lysa to abort her child, put in her by the man she loved.

The bolded paragraph is just one big stream of wrong. Hoster burned his own villages to punish his bannermen. Hoster arranged two powerful marriages. Hoster forced his daughter to abort her child. Does this put him on the same level as Tywin? No. But when it comes to treatment of their daughters it's a wash.

Cersei admires her father, btw, and Jaime is ambivalent towards him. Only Tyrion hates his guts.

If greed and lust for power are not evil and destructive, then what is?

Tywin was greedy, ambitious, and evil (I wouldn't call him destructive but whatever). But his bad acts cause people to look at his neutral or good acts with squinty eyes, searching for any excuse to condemn him. They stretch logic and twist events to cast him in the worst light possible. To borrow a phrase from Stannis: even when Tywin offers clear, cold water men look at each other and mutter about how queer it tastes.

[John Doe]

:agree:

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Consider this. Tywin was the hand of the King. Whatever you think of him, I think everyone would agree that he is smart, and that he had access to a good deal of information. Do you think he was unaware of Robert's whoring? What exactly is Tywin's view, publicly at least, of whoring? What is Tywin's opinion of his son's whoring? But this is okay in his son-in-law, right???? Why? Because he is a frickin King, that's why!

Robert was a young good looking man before Roberts Rebellion. It wasn't so much whoring about as sowing his wild oats as I'm guessing many young Lords would have been doing the same in their late teens, early 20's.

Harry the Heir having a bastard on the way does not diminish his marriage prospects.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

What Tywin did always involved tabloid style scandal and humiliation. It was his thing to humiliate you in front of everyone, .

If he always did this then provide some examples?

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Robert was a young good looking man before Roberts Rebellion.

I doubt Robert's looks had anything to do with Tywin's desire to marry Cersei to him. Robert could have looked like Yezzan zo Qaggaz and Tywin wouldn't have cared. He was the friggin King.

It wasn't so much whoring about as sowing his wild oats as I'm guessing many young Lords would have been doing the same in their late teens, early 20's.

All well and good. But that doesn't seem to be the way Tywin sees "sowing wild oats". Despite his own proclivities, which I'm going to guess he did not partake of while being married, he is adamantly against the idea of whoring as a pastime for Tyrion. This should clue us in to what he thought of Robert Baratheon.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I doubt Robert's looks had anything to do with Tywin's desire to marry Cersei to him. Robert could have looked like Yezzan zo Qaggaz and Tywin wouldn't have cared. He was the friggin King.

I didnt say it did. The point is Tywin would not think twice about stories of a young Robert 'sowing' his oats before marriage. The point about his looks is that he was most likely not getting it from prostitute as a young man in the Vale but willing partners.

Tywins not some sheltered monk, he grew up around other Lords, Robert doing what most single, young men do is not going to be a problem

All well and good. But that doesn't seem to be the way Tywin sees "sowing wild oats". Despite his own proclivities, which I'm going to guess he did not partake of while being married, he is adamantly against the idea of whoring as a pastime for Tyrion. This should clue us in to what he thought of Robert Baratheon.

Tyrion is a 27 year old single man who is infamous around Westeros for his public dalliances with alcohol and prostitutes. This is very different from the 21 year old King Robert.

The reputation Robert has now he didn't seem to have as a young man, Ned even notes how much his friend has changed in the years they have been apart.

[Pod The Impaler]

Not a form of punishment in the Middle Ages but sometimes gang rape was not taken very seriously as a crime, providing the victim was of low birth. ... Not seen as something as bad as murder.

Unless you're the victim.

Hoster burned his own villages to punish his bannermen. Hoster arranged two powerful marriages. Hoster forced his daughter to abort her child. Does this put him on the same level as Tywin? No. But when it comes to treatment of their daughters it's a wash.

Cersei admires her father, btw, and Jaime is ambivalent towards him. Only Tyrion hates his guts.

Hoster's bannermen sided against him in a war. And Lord Goodbrook's heir and the others were spared at war's end.

Hoster did make Lysa drink the Moon Tea and marry Jon Arryn. Disagreeable, yes, but he did not order Petyr to be gang raped or flayed alive or gelded. He just sent him away. For knocking up one daughter and pining after the other.

Hoster Tully is medieval normal. Tywin is not.

Tyrion is a 27 year old single man who is infamous around Westeros for his public dalliances with alcohol and prostitutes. This is very different from the 21 year old King Robert.

Robert was already banging women (whores or not) by that age, indeed before even becoming king he had bastards. He was a carouser enjoying himself. Sure, after Lyanna dies and his marriage is cold, he gets worse, but recklessly sowing his oats was always part of him.

Tyrion, on the other hand, was never interested in whores and until someone decided to convince him his wife was a whore, to drive home the point that he was a monster not a man, and that no girl or woman could ever actually want / love him for real. He had been a kind child, eager to please, and quite intellectual. He could not be a warrior but he had thoughts of becoming perhaps a maester or septon.

After the deed with Tysha was done, Tyrion develops a complex where he is laying with whores (exclusively), but also repeats the pattern of falling for them and even trying to protect them. As well, he parties hard and acts generally dissolute, as if part of him wants to be an infamous embarassment to his family.

So while part of him is trying to be a worthy Lannister, the other part is trying in its own way to stand up against it. This is all the post-Tysha fallout.

Tywin's fault. When Tyrion wants to be a serious heir to the Rock, he's told not to bother acting, that being a wastrel is all he's good for. Yet when he's a wastrel, he is criticized as an embarassment.

Oh, but to be wedded Sansa in a sham union, and rape her as an expediency of war? Tywin trusts Tyrion to do that.

[David Selig]

Tyrion is a 27 year old single man who is infamous around Westeros for his public dalliances with alcohol and prostitutes. This is very different from the 21 year old King Robert.

The reputation Robert has now he didn't seem to have as a young man, Ned even notes how much his friend has changed in the years they have been apart.

Tyrion is not actually infamous for drinking and whoring. You must be thinking of the show. Robert was always way more notorious for this, even as a young man, even Ned thought how Robert had never been never able to control his desires at all.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Hoster's bannermen sided against him in a war. And Lord Goodbrook's heir and the others were spared at war's end.

Hoster did make Lysa drink the Moon Tea and marry Jon Arryn. Disagreeable, yes, but he did not order Petyr to be gang raped or flayed alive or gelded. He just sent him away. For knocking up one daughter and pining after the other.

Hoster Tully is medieval normal. Tywin is not.

The point was, Hoster Tully had a history of self-serving actions (the other poster said he didn't), and Tywin wasn't any worse to Cersei than Hoster was to Lysa.

Obviously Tywin is worse than Hoster all around, but this idea that he was "medievally abnormal" toward Cersei is total bullshit. What a dick, getting her the most prestigous and sought-after marriage in the realm :rolleyes:

Don't believe me? Then just ask Lysa and Cersei themselves. Lysa clearly hates her dad, Cersei admires and tries to emulate hers