Tywin was not that bad of a father to Tyrion.

[stangles]

Gee some people really really really want to try and make Tywin seem like a nice guy. For those saying that he was a good father. I really hope you don't treat your kids like that. He only ever offered material goods. He never once gave Tyrion his emotional needs on top of the trauma he gave him. I hope this is a troll thread.

[Stark Vader]

Tywin is a representation of the values of the time.As a lord you could do cruel things and make hard decisions to maintain status quo. He exhibits Slight megalomania, pragmatism, he's a reader of people, dark tempered, intelligent, cunning, equal parts sentiment and not. Tywin wasn't a terrible leader nor was he known for his cruelty as hand. I feel like dismissing him as just a dick removes possibility of him as a complex man.

Tywin knows that no matter what happens tyrion will never be accepted by the westorosis, he's always going to be viewed as some sort of demon monkey. Tyrion, no matter how good he is will not be loved.Tywin is the one who recognises Tyrion for his strengths, because he could have sent his brother, and makes Tyrion hand. Tywin is indifferent to the idea of Tyrion dying and puts him in situations where Tyrion could die by someone else's hand, in. Culture where death Is cheap and people's lives are disposable Tyrions death would be saddening but not unrecoverable. ywin never attended to emotional needs because he doesn't believe in that and never needed it himself.

I think Tywin does love Tyrion because he's indulged him all those years and Tywins not a man to indulge anyone. There are numerous small signs he's got at least a dogged respect or liking for his son. If he wanted Tyrion dead he'd have done it, if he wanted to disinherent Tyrion he'd have done it, if he didn't want him to play in the game he'd have never have married Tyrion to Sansa or let him represent lannister name so publicly.

Tywin is an emotional tyrant, he rules by fear.

I'm not writing him off as an entirely bad parent, as someone who's had a kind of rough time with my own father it's difficult to entirely write off Tywin. He's good and bad. He's been present enough to impact Tyrion with some of his strengths and weaken Tyrion with his flaws.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Gee some people really really really want to try and make Tywin seem like a nice guy. For those saying that he was a good father. I really hope you don't treat your kids like that. He only ever offered material goods. He never once gave Tyrion his emotional needs on top of the trauma he gave him. I hope this is a troll thread.

I think you are judging him on modern standards of fatherhood and not the medieval Nobility standards when it was the mother, nannies and wetnurses who were largely responsible for nurturing children.

Here is a great account of William Marshall, one of the most detailed accounts of a medieval childhood.

We are introduced to the series through Ned who thanks to losing the majority of his childhood in a short period has a more hands on approach to fatherhood than the majority of the other Lords of the series. Ned not fostering his children and staying almost exclusively at Winterfell is actually odd behavior for a Lord in Westeros.

The Lords are usually busy dealing with running the lands, attending tourneys and other Lords or off to war. They have more important responsibilities and were not expected to spend much time with their young children. By the time time the children were old enough to travel instead of accompanying their children they were instead fostered out as pages, squires or cupbearers.

Do we hear of Ned remembering getting emotional support from his father, Edmure from Hoster, Robert from Steffon, Quentyn from Doran, Sam with Randyll, Theon with Balon, Arys, Victarion and Barristan from their fathers? No, because that was not the role of the medieval father.

Tywin provided well for his children, tried to secure them the best possible futures. It is not his fault that the three of them, all long past being children, are making their own choices to screw things up.

[Annara Snow]

1. Radyll is worse because he threatened t kill his so. I also doubt he would hae made him master of coin, had of the king, or given him the heir of the Norh as wife. Or if he had given Sam money to jouny through westeros.

It's good to know that you consider emotionally and sexually abusing your son and ruining his happiness a mark of good fatherhood, as long as you provide material goods. Great.

2. This argument is stupid. I could also say Joseph Jackson was a good fathe because he raised Michael Jackson.

and, a thelittledragon said, Jaime and Cersei are damaged because they have a incestual relationship, not because of their father.

What?! Of course Joseph Jackson was an awful father, Michael Jackson was a complete mess, and it seems to be largely because of how his father treated him as a child. What do you mean by that?

Yes, Jamie and Cersei are damaged because of their father's poor parenting, and the lack of a mother. Particularly Cersei - the lack of a mother figure, Tywin's treatment of her as a tool to be married off so his status would increase, his utter disregard for her as a person rather than a golden beautiful doll/broodmare ("You're my daughter and you'll do as you're told! You're marry and you'll breed!"), his own example of hating Tyrion and blaming him for Joanna's death, and his own example of being a ruthless and awful person to everyone he considers beneath the Lannisters, all this contributed to make her just as fucked up as she is. Where do you think she gets her arrogance and contempt for the "lesser" people (i.e. everyone other than her, Tywin and Jaime), or such ideas as that it's best to rule through fear - by killing and terrorizing anyone who gets in your way, or all that internalized misogyny? And Cersei and Jaime would not be having an incestuous relationship if Tywin hadn't been ignoring them and turning a blind eye to anything he didn't want to see, since it wouldn't fit with his ideas of his perfect golden children, whom he loved a lot as status symbols but not really as people. Joanna immediately noticed when little pre-pubescent Jaime and Cersei started playing inappropriate games and took steps to make sure nothing further happened, but Tywin? Tywin somehow failed to notice anything during the two decades, even when they were having a long-term sexual relationship and having children together.

[John Doe]

It's good to know that you consider emotionally and sexually abusing your son and ruining his happiness a mark of good fatherhood, as long as you provide material goods. Great

I didn't even say that.

[ummester]

Just gotta say, I've always thought Michael Jackson was more of a mess mentally because of the effect fame had on him and the fact that he was a creative genius, than how he was raised.

Also gotta say I like and agree with thelittledragonthatcould's post.

[John Doe]

What?! Of course Joseph Jackson was an awful father, Michael Jackson was a complete mess, and it seems to be largely because of how his father treated him as a child. What do you mean by that?

What I meant is that Asha turned out relatively good doesn't necessarily mean that her father was a good one, as there are other factors to consider.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

The idea that Tywin Lannister was the "norm" for Westerosi or medieval fatherhood is ridiculous. I understand that Ned wasn't exactly the norm either, but that doesn't change the fact that most medieval fathers, including lords, did not emotionally torment a son the way Tywin Lannister did. It's been accepted that he's got issues. Why can't it be accepted that those issues made him make some bad fatherhood decisions?

[Brightstar_]

It's good to know that you consider emotionally and sexually abusing your son and ruining his happiness a mark of good fatherhood, as long as you provide material goods. Great.

What?! Of course Joseph Jackson was an awful father, Michael Jackson was a complete mess, and it seems to be largely because of how his father treated him as a child. What do you mean by that?

Yes, Jamie and Cersei are damaged because of their father's poor parenting, and the lack of a mother. Particularly Cersei - the lack of a mother figure, Tywin's treatment of her as a tool to be married off so his status would increase, his utter disregard for her as a person rather than a golden beautiful doll/broodmare ("You're my daughter and you'll do as you're told! You're marry and you'll breed!"), his own example of hating Tyrion and blaming him for Joanna's death, and his own example of being a ruthless and awful person to everyone he considers beneath the Lannisters, all this contributed to make her just as fucked up as she is. Where do you think she gets her arrogance and contempt for the "lesser" people (i.e. everyone other than her, Tywin and Jaime), or such ideas as that it's best to rule through fear - by killing and terrorizing anyone who gets in your way, or all that internalized misogyny? And Cersei and Jaime would not be having an incestuous relationship if Tywin hadn't been ignoring them and turning a blind eye to anything he didn't want to see, since it wouldn't fit with his ideas of his perfect golden children, whom he loved a lot as status symbols but not really as people. Joanna immediately noticed when little pre-pubescent Jaime and Cersei started playing inappropriate games and took steps to make sure nothing further happened, but Tywin? Tywin somehow failed to notice anything during the two decades, even when they were having a long-term sexual relationship and having children together.

Have to agree with this. Well said. It's pretty weird to me that people are somehow able to excuse Tywin, or claim that he wasn't a bad father, when there's a world of evidence that points the other direction. You could even add on to this list for quite some time.

[Annara Snow]

Just gotta say, I've always thought Michael Jackson was more of a mess mentally because of the effect fame had on him and the fact that he was a creative genius, than how he was raised.

Also gotta say I like and agree with thelittledragonthatcould's post.

Off-topic: in the TV documentary by Martin Bashir, Jackson himself told the interviewer that his father used to beat him and his brothers up whenever he was dissatisfied with their performance. He also used to insult him in anger, an one of the things he would tell him was that he had an ugly, wide nose, like his mother. Doesn't that sound like it had something to do with his psychological issues?

And there's also the fact that he was deprived of a normal childhood and spending time with children his age, and had instead to work and train and go on a long tours with his father and elder brothers. He also used to sleep in the same room with his teenage brothers when they were on the road and had to listen to them having sex with girls when he was really young, which seems to have made him scared of sex. That's just the stuff he told the interviewer himself.

[ummester]

That's a bit sad - I didn't know that.

[Knight Of Winter]

I think you are judging him on modern standards of fatherhood and not the medieval Nobility standards when it was the mother, nannies and wetnurses who were largely responsible for nurturing children.

Here is a great account of William Marshall, one of the most detailed accounts of a medieval childhood.

I've read your link and got the impression that John Marshall is utter jerk in regards to parenting, and not that his action were norm. In fact, several passages strongly contrast with your post:

Fostering is one of the practices that have led some scholars to claim that medieval people didn’t love their children. They couldn’t risk getting attached – or so the reasoning goes – because there was such a high mortality rate among babies and children. Therefore, they closed themselves off, acted coldly, treated their children like adults or sent their children away.

This is, however, a great misconception. A wealth of evidence from medieval sources – and William Marshal’s story in particular – tells us otherwise. Medieval parents did love their children. They wanted to keep them safe, missed them when they were apart, and understood children’s need for play and affection – in short, they were just like modern parents.

Love for children is a universal human emotion, without regard for time or place. Of course there will always be people who have more or less affection for children – variety in human emotions is universal, too. But William Marshal’s memories of his captivity and his biographer’s reconstruction of these events probably indicate that John Marshal’s betrayal hurt his son.

This account also helps us to understand the complexity of medieval families and attitudes about children. William’s mother’s joy at her son’s return indicates her affection for her son; and, conversely the brutal act of using a five year old as a hostage indicates that parents were believed to care for their children. And the kindness five-year-old William found from the least expected source – his father’s enemy, King Stephen--indicates that medieval people cared for and felt affection for children.

I'd consider Tywin to be terrible father in any setting - modern, medieval or Westerosi. I honestly can't imagine any other parent (barring Randyll) in the series behaving the way Tywin did : Ned, Cat, Jon Arryn, Hoster, Mace, Doran, Oberyn, Manderly, Davos, Olenna...

Tywin is fortunately not the norm of typical Westerosi parent.

ETA: A great way about Tywin the parent can be said from the way his children behaved after his death. His daughter spends no time mourining and already thinks about surpassing him; his elder son is unsure how to feel; while his younger son is the one who killed him. My, Twin, that's great job you did of raising them.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The idea that Tywin Lannister was the "norm" for Westerosi or medieval fatherhood is ridiculous. I understand that Ned wasn't exactly the norm either, but that doesn't change the fact that most medieval fathers, including lords, did not emotionally torment a son the way Tywin Lannister did. It's been accepted that he's got issues. Why can't it be accepted that those issues made him make some bad fatherhood decisions?

He punished Tysha, a commoner, who married his son. Had a peasant married Cersei he would have been killed. According to Daeron he got sent to the Wall (life imprisonment) for just sleeping with the Mathias Rowans daughter.

Lords don't treat the peasants very nicely. Westeros is a caste system. We rightfully view it as repugnant but they accept how Lords treat peasants.

[John Doe]

Hoster married hs daughter off to a man who could have been her grandfather.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I've read your link and got the impression that John Marshall is utter jerk in regards to parenting, and not that his action were norm. In fact, several passages strongly contrast with your post:

Try reading it again. It makes the point that while John and other fathers were not there to be nurturing the Mothers were very much involved in that side of the children's upbringing.

Furthermore John Marshall was not a jerk, like Tywin, he cared for his son as shown in his actions towards his son rather than hugs and kisses.

I'd consider Tywin to be terrible father in any setting - modern, medieval or Westerosi. I honestly can't imagine any other parent (barring Randyll) in the series behaving the way Tywin did : Ned, Cat, Jon Arryn, Hoster, Mace, Doran, Oberyn, Manderly, Davos, Olenna...

Tywin is fortunately not the norm of typical Westerosi parent.

How do you know that Arryn was any better of a father to Robert? He is all set to foster the 6 year old to either Tywin or Stannis.

Hoster forced his daugher to have an abortion and then married her off to a man approaching his 60's and its pretty clear she does not have fond memories of her father.

Doran has fostered his son off at an early age and his eldest daughter is planning to overthrow him. He is distant with both of them.

Oberyn you have a point, but he is clearly an odd individual in Westeroi terms.

The other characters you have mentioned you have no evidence on how they brought up their children or how much emotion they showed them. It is pretty weak, really.

ETA: A great way about Tywin the parent can be said from the way his children behaved after his death. His daughter spends no time mourining and already thinks about surpassing him; his elder son is unsure how to feel; while his younger son is the one who killed him. My, Twin, that's great job you did of raising them.

Cersei and Jaime are both in mourning for their Father. I'm not sure how you dont see that.

Not everyone deals with death the same way but both are clearly feeling a sense of loss from his death. I'm surprised that some people can't see that.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

He punished Tysha, a commoner, who married his son. Had a peasant married Cersei he would have been killed. According to Daeron he got sent to the Wall (life imprisonment) for just sleeping with the Mathias Rowans daughter.

Lords don't treat the peasants very nicely. Westeros is a caste system. We rightfully view it as repugnant but they accept how Lords treat peasants.

Punishment is one thing. Having a commoner girl gang raped is another. See, I tend to think that sleeping with or marrying a lordling without permission carries with it a lower level of punishment then gang rape.

Not only do we view it as repugnant, but I believe most other Lords in Westeros view it as repugnant as well. I don't see alot of people whom Tyrion tells the story going "oh well, that's normal". It's horrific. It isn't justice, even for Westeros or medieval Europe.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Hoster married hs daughter off to a man who could have been her grandfather.

He didn't do it out of cruelty or as a punishment. And he definitely regretted what he did.

Considering what Lysa did, Jon was still the best match she could have had. Jon might be old, but he was the Lord of the Vale, a catch, in theory, and he was not a bad man (to be honest, we know little of him, but IICR, Ned reminds fondly of him). Lysa is not the first bride who goes unwillingly to her husband's bed either. Cat was too: he slept with Ned due to obligation, not lust or passion.

[John Doe]

He didn't do it out of cruelty or as a punishment. And he definitely regretted what he did.

He regretted the abortion, not the marriage I think. And Tywin also gave Tyrion a suitable wife.

[Lord Lannister]

Hoster married hs daughter off to a man who could have been her grandfather.

Are you somehow implying that an arranged marriage is somehow worse than ordering the gangrape of your son's wife just to teach him a lesson?

Tywin's bad parenting didn't just extend to Tyrion, though that's were it reached it's extremes because of his dwarven nature. He was pretty much blind to his children as actual people, looking at them only as tools to further the family legacy. Jaime was always urged to set aside his vows simply to continue the line, Cersei was little more than an object to be married to the royal family to increase the family influence and Tyrion was just a blunt tool that was occasionally useful when everyone else was busy, like when he was named acting hand.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

He regretted the abortion, not the marriage I think. And Tywin also gave Tyrion a suitable wife.

The point with Lysa's marriage is that we see it with 21th Century googles. Lysa was going to have an arranged marriage either way, and she was always going to dislike it because she loved Petyr. What was Hoster going to do about that? Accept and marry her to Petyr? A nobody? The guy who insulted the Stark heir? He couldn't do that. That's not how these things work in Westeros.

She could have even gone "dishonoured", and mostly men would have simply not cared or not realised at all (I think mostly men wouldn't have), but she also got pregnant. That simply added more insult to whoever was going to marry her, and if anybody had found out and the subject had been publicly known, Hoster could have only married her to some minor Lord. Mostly parents want their children to marry up, not down.