Who is Younger more Beautiful Queen?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

<snip

Sigh. Myrcella can't end Cersei's reign as queen, because Myrcella being crowned just reinforces Cersei's position as queen dowager - she's the mother of the queen, the wife of the dead king.

Only someone who ends the reign of the Baratheon dynasty can put an end to Cersei being queen, which is what the prophecy is about - Cersei will be queen, until there comes another.

Please quote the instances in the text where the terms "queen dowager" or "queen mother" are used. I don't recall seeing them.

Cersei doesn't care about the title, she cares about the power. That's the whole reason she's framed Margaery, to keep power. She'd still be the mother of the reigning monarch and Robert's widow regardless.

To remove Cersei from power would be to remove her as Regent. Myrcella will have no trouble doing this. Her small council will consist of Jaime, Lady Nym, Varys, whoever they get as a new Grand Maester, and...who is in LF's job right now? Cersei is Tommen's regent but that does not make her automatically Myrcella's. Her looks are already failing, if she loses power the only things left to lose are Jaime (well on the way as it is,) and Myrcella. Make no mistake, Cersei will blame Myrcella for Jaime's continued defection as father and daughter get closer. The woman is on the edge as it is. It won't take much to push her over completely.

Casting Cersei down consists of: removing her from power/removing her from being regent. It does not mean removing her title, which she would retain even if Dany came in and took over. Cersei would still be Robert's widow, and there would still be people calling her Queen Cersei, just not around Targ supporters.

Taking all she holds dear means: she loses power; she loses Jaime; she loses her looks. She's already losing her looks. She will lose power. And she will lose Jaime.

And really the burn is that much worse if the "younger, more beautiful" queen is her own daughter--the one person she never ever would have suspected. Much like she would never expect Jaime to choke her to death.

Remember, Cersei is wrong about everything! Also I expect her to be dead before Dany gets to Westeros.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I think it would be cheesy if one of our semi-heroic female character destroys a villainous female character that she has no history together.

I think it's either Margaery, Sansa or someone else who is more beautiful and younger than Cersei (because there's no mention of a queen in the prophecy).

And I think this person has to be involved in Joff's assassination somehow.

IMHO Dany is too crackpot.

I'm not sure but I think Maggy made the prophecy after Joanna's death, so that might be why she's not on the list of things Cersei holds dear.

Edit:

Yup. Joanna was dead when the prophecy made. It was Rhaegar's 17th birthday, which happened in 276AL. Tyrion was born in 272AL or 273AL.

Agree so much. They have to have a connection. If someone came out of nowhere with no connection with her to destroy Cersei it would had made no sense.

[Guard of the Rainking]

For me Arianne is the most likely.

[larastone]

Dany isn't going to "destroy" Cersei. Cersei would have already destroyed herself very well by that time. It's just going to be not that difficult for Dany to take everything Cersei holds dear since Cersei has already dug her own grave.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

I think Arianne is the most likely suspect.

[PatrickStormborn]

I don't know, I don't really see any reason to assume that Littlefinger is talking about Daenerys, when he's never otherwise mentioned her once and virtually nobody in Westeros seems to be expecting her to arrive.

He also seems to be in it to win it all, so it doesn't seem a stretch to think he'll attempt to find a way to put his own faction on the throne.

Well, the clue that he knows about Dany is that he mentions three queens... He's just returned from the port, where tails of Dany are being spread widely. Even Pycelle knows about Dany and the dragons by the end of ADwD - why would Littlefinger be unaware of her?

Sansa has absolutely no claim to the Iron Throne.

So, according to pretty much everyone here, if I say "My boyfriend left me for another", it automatically means he's turned gay. Okay then.

That's a really weak argument. Let's restructure the sentence:

"I will be his girlfriend though?"

"Aye, his girlfriend you will be... Until there comes another, younger and more beautiful."

Please quote the instances in the text where the terms "queen dowager" or "queen mother" are used. I don't recall seeing them.

Cersei doesn't care about the title, she cares about the power. That's the whole reason she's framed Margaery, to keep power. She'd still be the mother of the reigning monarch and Robert's widow regardless.

To remove Cersei from power would be to remove her as Regent. Myrcella will have no trouble doing this. Her small council will consist of Jaime, Lady Nym, Varys, whoever they get as a new Grand Maester, and...who is in LF's job right now? Cersei is Tommen's regent but that does not make her automatically Myrcella's. Her looks are already failing, if she loses power the only things left to lose are Jaime (well on the way as it is,) and Myrcella. Make no mistake, Cersei will blame Myrcella for Jaime's continued defection as father and daughter get closer. The woman is on the edge as it is. It won't take much to push her over completely.

Casting Cersei down consists of: removing her from power/removing her from being regent. It does not mean removing her title, which she would retain even if Dany came in and took over. Cersei would still be Robert's widow, and there would still be people calling her Queen Cersei, just not around Targ supporters.

Taking all she holds dear means: she loses power; she loses Jaime; she loses her looks. She's already losing her looks. She will lose power. And she will lose Jaime.

And really the burn is that much worse if the "younger, more beautiful" queen is her own daughter--the one person she never ever would have suspected. Much like she would never expect Jaime to choke her to death.

Remember, Cersei is wrong about everything! Also I expect her to be dead before Dany gets to Westeros.

• She is called the queen dowager in the Appendices.

She was already removed as queen regent by the High Sparrow - is he the younger queen now? Clearly not. That means it has to be something other than being removed as regent.

If Dany ended the reign of House Baratheon and made Cersei surrender, she would stop being the queen.

She also does not suspect Daenerys. That's the point: she makes enemies instead of allies because of this prophecy, and that means she has no allies for when the younger queen arrives.

You can think what you want about Dany's arrival, but I'd argue that it's going to happen a lot earlier than a lot of you imagine... It would be really anticlimactic if the Lannisters were defeated before Dany and Tyrion even landed.

[HairGrowsBack]

Sorry

[HairGrowsBack]

My point was that "another" is very often used as a notion of its own , not necessarily as a pronoun.

I'm not arguing against Dany (she is indeed a likely candidate) or against the idea that it will indeed be another queen , but I find it rather amazing that people usually so keen on finding the most subtle and sometimes twisted interpretation decide all of the sudden to stick with the plainest and most boring interpretation.

[larastone]

I'm starting to think that both the Dany/Cersei and Jaime/Cersei confrontations are going to happen at Casterly Rocjk rather than King's Landing, especially because Cersei probably definitely hates King's Landing more than she's ever before (so she may no longer hold it "dear"). plus jaime killing cersei at casterly rock would be very poetic (especially if they end up dying together)

@HairGrowsBack thats because this prophecy is pretty straight forward. the only major caveat is that cersei is suspecting the wrong people for the roles of YMBQ and valonqar because she is a short-sighted person (thats her greatest weakness really)

[HairGrowsBack]

How do you imagine that happening ? (the dying together part, I mean)

[PatrickStormborn]

My point was that "another" is very often used as a notion of its own , not necessarily as a pronoun.

I'm not arguing against Dany (she is indeed a likely candidate) or against the idea that it will indeed be another queen , but I find it rather amazing that people usually so keen on finding the most subtle and sometimes twisted interpretation decide all of the sudden to stick with the plainest and most boring interpretation.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, as GRRM would say.

Cersei asks if she will be queen. Maggy says that she will be queen until another one comes along. It's just simple grammar.

[Mithras]

I don't think Dany will take Jaime from Cersei, who is among the things she holds dear. That will be Sansa. Cersei will probably order him to bring her head just like Aerys did once and that will seal the deal for Jaime.

“I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor.”

[larastone]

How do you imagine that happening ? (the dying together part, I mean)

My favorite scenario is that Cersei ends up killing him back, or he ends up dying in the flames. I can't see him killing himself over Cersei but if Jaime's truly also lost everything at that point (especially since Tommen and Myrcella will be dead by then and I don't see Jaime and Dany becoming friends anytime soon) then I think he may kill himself. But I just don't see GRRM letting Jaime get away with killing Cersei, and since I think Dany is the YMBQ..........by then I don't think Jaime would have anymore of a further role to play in the story (all of this seems like ADOS stuff to me)

[HairGrowsBack]

Patrick: It might be so, but so far it doesn't lean one way or the other. I just feel "another" is a strongly connoted term and it could very well stand on its own.

Larastone I can definitely see that happening, though I tend to see J&C' s thoughts on "dying together" a very narcissistic illusion that GRRM will take great pleasure in shattering

[larastone]

Patrick: It might be so, but so far it doesn't lean one way or the other. I just feel "another" is a strongly connoted term and it could very well stand on its own.

I would agree with you if Cersei's arc didn't focus so heavily on queenship.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

• She is called the queen dowager in the Appendices.

She was already removed as queen regent by the High Sparrow - is he the younger queen now? Clearly not. That means it has to be something other than being removed as regent.

If Dany ended the reign of House Baratheon and made Cersei surrender, she would stop being the queen.

She also does not suspect Daenerys. That's the point: she makes enemies instead of allies because of this prophecy, and that means she has no allies for when the younger queen arrives.

You can think what you want about Dany's arrival, but I'd argue that it's going to happen a lot earlier than a lot of you imagine... It would be really anticlimactic if the Lannisters were defeated before Dany and Tyrion even landed.

Thank you. I often gloss over the appendices and had forgotten that the High Sparrow removed her from the regency. But if she wins her trial she'll probably be regent again. Kevan's dead and someone has to be in charge.

Cersei does not stop being Robert's widow just because a non-Baratheon takes the throne. They might start calling her queen dowager of the usurper, but she's not going to stop being "a" queen.

Agreed that she doesn't suspect Dany and it works in that respect. But Dany's so obvious in the younger and more beautiful category that I really hope she's not the YMBQ. Plus when she does show up, Cersei will start suspecting it was her all along. Far more fun if it's someone Cersei will never suspect until the final piece of the puzzle snaps into place. Granted what I find more fun does not always end up being what the author does.

I don't think it would be anticlimactic for Cersei to be dead when Dany gets there. The main people worth destroying (from Dany's POV) are already dead: Robert's gone, Ned's gone, Tywin and the Mountain are gone, Amory Lorch is dead. The only one left is Jaime. She may or may not kill him, or order him killed, but the main thing she needs to do isn't take back her throne, but help defeat the Others.

I'm starting to think that both the Dany/Cersei and Jaime/Cersei confrontations are going to happen at Casterly Rocjk rather than King's Landing, especially because Cersei probably definitely hates King's Landing more than she's ever before (so she may no longer hold it "dear"). plus jaime killing cersei at casterly rock would be very poetic (especially if they end up dying together)

@HairGrowsBack thats because this prophecy is pretty straight forward. the only major caveat is that cersei is suspecting the wrong people for the roles of YMBQ and valonqar because she is a short-sighted person (thats her greatest weakness really)

Then they better hurry up because Tyrion is going to help Dany take Casterly Rock by leading her forces in through the sewers. Subtle foreshadowing, very well done by GRRM.

[larastone]

Then they better hurry up because Tyrion is going to help Dany take Casterly Rock by leading her forces in through the sewers. Subtle foreshadowing, very well done by GRRM.

yep I definitely think that's going to happen too and that Tyrion will get very close to killing Cersei but Jaime will beat him to it

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't think Dany will take Jaime from Cersei, who is among the things she holds dear. That will be Sansa. Cersei will probably order him to bring her head just like Aerys did once and that will seal the deal for Jaime.

“I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor.”

THAT is awesome!

[Lost Melnibonean]

I don't think Dany will take Jaime from Cersei, who is among the things she holds dear. That will be Sansa. Cersei will probably order him to bring her head just like Aerys did once and that will seal the deal for Jaime.

I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor.

He doesn't know Rhaegar's son is alive yet.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

I don't think Dany will take Jaime from Cersei, who is among the things she holds dear. That will be Sansa. Cersei will probably order him to bring her head just like Aerys did once and that will seal the deal for Jaime.

“I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor.”

I like this but i think Jaime's path is more likely tied to Jon's or Aegon's.