Alia of the knife Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Okay, I have a question: If R+L=J was true, why did Ned lie to Cat? Why didn't he tell Cat the truth and ask to keep it secret? She wasn't a moron, and she definitely would have kept it secret. I don't see why Ned needed to keep it from her. All it did was hurt the relationship between them and made Cat treat Jon like a piece of shit.No, gods no could Cat keep a secret.If it came down to her royal nephew and her children~ her children would win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 What if Ned was forced to choose between his children and Jon? Also, what sort of situation would cause her to have to make that choice? The book really seemed to emphasize the love between Ned and Cat. I honestly think it's out of character for Ned not to have told her, if it were true. 1) If Robert found out that Ned had the Targaryen heir as his so called bastard son...that's a choice. 2) They did love each other. Ned loved her so much that he wouldn't risk her someday having to make that choice between her own children and his sisters. Or that this information might be used against her. I see your point. But that does lead to my next question: why didn't he tell Jon before he left for the Wall? Or, more importantly, why did he let him take the black? This is the unknown son of Rhaegar here, you're gonna let him take the vows of the Night's Watch and potentially die an icy death? Well Ned argued against Jon taking the black. It's only after he thinks about it that he agreed. (and FWIW, it's Cat's POV, had it been Ned's you most likely would have heard a "promise me, Ned") And of course you are going to let Rhaegar's son take the black. How else to keep him safe--at the wall where no one can touch him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F The King Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 And of course you are going to let Rhaegar's son take the black. How else to keep him safe--at the wall where no one can touch him. Yeah. Except for the part where he dies there. ;) I don't see why a rational Ned would let Jon put himself in danger by taking the black. He was better off staying in Winterfell, where he would have (or should have) been safest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F The King Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 So, just saw this line brought up in a possible alternatives for R+L=J thread, that as of now has no alternatives responded to it. We know from the books that Edric Dayne was told he and Jon Snow were milk brothers by both being nursed by Wylla. Why the hell would Edric Dayne be told he was a milk brother with some random bastard of some Lord in a different part of the country? Seems an odd topic to bring up if you don't believe Jon will be some sort of important person, personally. It's not just some random bastard. It's honorable Lord Eddard Stark's bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 It's not just some random bastard. It's honorable Lord Eddard Stark's bastard. Hey kiddo. You were milk brothers with this bastard child of the Lord who killed your celebrity uncle. Isn't that cool! Just doesn't seem natural to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Yeah. Except for the part where he dies there. ;) I don't see why a rational Ned would let Jon put himself in danger by taking the black. He was better off staying in Winterfell, where he would have (or should have) been safest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFXGwHsD_A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Yeah. Except for the part where he dies there. ;) I don't see why a rational Ned would let Jon put himself in danger by taking the black. He was better off staying in Winterfell, where he would have (or should have) been safest. Cat wouldn't let him stay because Jon isn't her son. He can't go to KL where Robert "I hate the Targs" Baratheon lives where anyone could put together RLJ if they investigated. The Wall is actually the safest place. And...Jon isn't dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F The King Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Cat wouldn't let him stay because Jon isn't her son. He can't go to KL where Robert "I hate the Targs" Baratheon lives where anyone could put together RLJ if they investigated. The Wall is actually the safest place. And...Jon isn't dead. Is that mentioned in any POV that Cat wouldn't let him stay? I believe she would. And again, regardless of Jon's fate, I certainly wouldn't call the Wall a very safe place, let alone the safest place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Is that mentioned in any POV that Cat wouldn't let him stay? I believe she would. And again, regardless of Jon's fate, I certainly wouldn't call the Wall a very safe place, let alone the safest place. Re-read Cat II. "He's your son, not mine. I don't want him here" She wasn't going to let him stay when Ned wanted to leave him at WF when he went South to KL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Is that mentioned in any POV that Cat wouldn't let him stay? I believe she would. And again, regardless of Jon's fate, I certainly wouldn't call the Wall a very safe place, let alone the safest place. ...there isn't a 'safe' place. War, disease, poverty, murder, rape, torture and all sorts of atrocities have taken place in Westeros and Essos all throughout this story. There's not anywhere Jon could go to be 'safe'. Dany was all the way in Essos and people were trying to assassinate her for being Targaryan. And pretty soon, the entire world is going to be overrun with winter and a zombie hoarde. Whatever Jon's fate is, he will be at the forefront of danger in all likelihood. But that's his part to play, and he plays it well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 ...there isn't a 'safe' place. War, disease, poverty, murder, rape, torture and all sorts of atrocities have taken place in Westeros and Essos all throughout this story. There's not anywhere Jon could go to be 'safe'. Dany was all the way in Essos and people were trying to assassinate her for being Targaryan. And pretty soon, the entire world is going to be overrun with winter and a zombie hoarde. Whatever Jon's fate is, he will be at the forefront of danger in all likelihood. But that's his part to play, and he plays it well. Also, just going with this...there IS a Targaryen living at the Wall and he did so for a long time totally free of molestation or threats. He died of old age and he died because he left the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F The King Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Re-read Cat II. "He's your son, not mine. I don't want him here" She wasn't going to let him stay when Ned wanted to leave him at WF when he went South to KL. Hm. But I feel like Ned could have been like "Too fucking bad, I want him to stay here," and Cat wouldn't have actually kicked Jon out. Also, just going with this...there IS a Targaryen living at the Wall and he did so for a long time totally free of molestation or threats. He died of old age and he died because he left the Wall. You can't really make the comparison, because Jon was going with the intent of being a ranger, while Aemon was a maester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Also, just going with this...there IS a Targaryen living at the Wall and he did so for a long time totally free of molestation or threats. He died of old age and he died because he left the Wall. Very true. It still gets to me that Aemon never knew who Jon was. I think the promise that he saw in Jon was because of Jon's similarity with Rhaegar, but he never put two and two together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Hm. But I feel like Ned could have been like "Too fucking bad, I want him to stay here," and Cat wouldn't have actually kicked Jon out. Does that sound like Lord Eddard Stark to you? Cause he tried to fight her and Cat was firm. And during all of this remember: Jon WANTS to go. He's almost 15, supposedly a man grown who could take the vows. So, Ned might as well let him go. You can't really make the comparison, because Jon was going with the intent of being a ranger, while Aemon was a maester. Intent doesn't mater because no one decides who you are going to be at the Wall except the LC and Aemon. So Ned has no way of knowing what Jon will be--ranger, steward, builder. All Ned knows is that Jon is going to take the black. Very true. It still gets to me that Aemon never knew who Jon was. I think the promise that he saw in Jon was because of Jon's similarity with Rhaegar, but he never put two and two together. Similar to Rhaegar and to Egg, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 You can't really make the comparison, because Jon was going with the intent of being a ranger, while Aemon was a maester. If Jon had wanted to be 'safe', he would have chosen a different profession. That's not Jon's personality, though. Jon wants to be a leader, a warrior, and a soldier. He wants to prove to Ned that he's as good as any of his trueborn sons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 If Jon had wanted to be 'safe', he would have chosen a different profession. That's not Jon's personality, though. Jon wants to be a leader, a warrior, and a soldier. He wants to prove to Ned that he's as good as any of his trueborn sons. A bastard's honor. Jon needed to find that, and the Wall was the right place to go. He's not the only "bastard" to become the LC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 IMO, if Ned promised Lyanna that he would raise Jon as his own and keep him safe, he has fulfilled that promise. After Jon grows up, it's no longer in Ned's hands to protect him. Once Jon decides to go to the Wall, Jon's safety becomes a matter of personal responsibility. Even Lyanna would agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F The King Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 If Jon had wanted to be 'safe', he would have chosen a different profession. That's not Jon's personality, though. Jon wants to be a leader, a warrior, and a soldier. He wants to prove to Ned that he's as good as any of his trueborn sons. But it doesn't matter what Jon wants. What matters is keeping the heir to the Iron Throne safe. Winterfell is safer than the Wall. Although it would make Ned uncomfortable to force a decision upon Cat, if he were smart, he would've fought her on the issue and let him stay in Winterfell. Yes, Ned had no way of knowing if Jon would be a ranger. But it was obvious that he would be (I mean, he was the Lord Commander's steward instead, but that means Jeor was grooming him to one day be LC: hardly a safer job than being a ranger, as Jeor's ghost could tell us.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 But it doesn't matter what Jon wants. What matters is keeping the heir to the Iron Throne safe. Winterfell is safer than the Wall. Although it would make Ned uncomfortable to force a decision upon Cat, if he were smart, he would've fought her on the issue and let him stay in Winterfell. No, WF is not safer than the Wall. Jon cannot be touched at the Wall because a man forswears all his titles, lands, rights, and his name when he takes the black. If RLJ is ever discovered, then Jon has made a vow that he can't break without pain of death. Think about WHY Aemon was sent to the Wall. If RLJ was discovered and Jon was still at WF, he could easily be executed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F The King Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 No, WF is not safer than the Wall. Jon cannot be touched at the Wall because a man forswears all his titles, lands, rights, and his name when he takes the black. If RLJ is ever discovered, then Jon has made a vow that he can't break without pain of death. Think about WHY Aemon was sent to the Wall. If RLJ was discovered and Jon was still at WF, he could easily be executed. Then why does RLJ even matter? Jon would have to break his vows in order to assume the Throne. Is Jon going to find out he's a Targ only to do nothing with that information and continue life on the Wall? And don't tell me being stabbed to death nullifies the vows, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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