R+L=J v.110

[BearQueen87]

Then why does RLJ even matter? Jon would have to break his vows in order to assume the Throne. Is Jon going to find out he's a Targ only to do nothing with that information and continue life on the Wall?

And don't tell me being stabbed to death nullifies the vows,

1) It matters to Jon on a personal level

2) I believe his blood (fire and ice) makes him TPTWP and that will play a HUGE part in the War for the Dawn

3) Great Council will elect Jon king and he will take it up out of duty not because he is Rhaegar's son.

And what makes you think there will even be a Wall or an Iron Throne by the end of WOW? One of them is falling and the other is toast via wildfire.

[sj4iy]

But it doesn't matter what Jon wants. What matters is keeping the heir to the Iron Throne safe. Winterfell is safer than the Wall. Although it would make Ned uncomfortable to force a decision upon Cat, if he were smart, he would've fought her on the issue and let him stay in Winterfell.

Yes, Ned had no way of knowing if Jon would be a ranger. But it was obvious that he would be (I mean, he was the Lord Commander's steward instead, but that means Jeor was grooming him to one day be LC: hardly a safer job than being a ranger, as Jeor's ghost could tell us.)

But Ned isn't worried about the "heir to the IT"...to him, Jon is his adoptive son, the son of his sister. The last thing he wants is to put Jon on the IT. If Aemon can turn down the IT to live his life at the Wall, then who is Ned to say that Jon can't join? And really, the Wall is where Jon is needed most. He's made a difference- he knows about what's coming, he has saved the lives of thousands, and he's learned to be a leader.

He's been burned, attacked by an eagle, shot with an arrow by his girlfriend and stabbed by his men...yet had he stayed at WF, he would have died by Robb's side at the Red Wedding. And had he gone to KL with Ned, he would have likely been killed when Ned was killed. So really, he's lucked out so far.

[corbon]

The book really seemed to emphasize the love between Ned and Cat. I honestly think it's out of character for Ned not to have told her, if it were true.

That love is from a decade and a half or more of marriage. At the time of R+L=J Ned had known Catelyn for 1 week. They'd never met before their marriage, he married her, and went off to continue the war within a week. The next time he saw her was after Jon's appearance.

Trusting a stranger with a secret that dangerous would be utterly moronic.

I see your point. But that does lead to my next question: why didn't he tell Jon before he left for the Wall? Or, more importantly, why did he let him take the black? This is the unknown son of Rhaegar here, you're gonna let him take the vows of the Night's Watch and potentially die an icy death?

For Ned, Jon's Targaryen-ness is of no value. He's Lyanna's son, not 'the hidden Targaryen heir', for Ned. Jon is better off not knowing his heritage on that side because Ned is not about to try to overthrow Robert, or even his dynasty, in Jon's favour.

The wall is an honourable place for a Stark, in fact the perfect place for Jon, other than his youth.

I don't see why a rational Ned would let Jon put himself in danger by taking the black. He was better off staying in Winterfell, where he would have (or should have) been safest.

That wasn't an option any more, and is a fairly idealistic scenario anyway. There is nothing long-term at Winterfell for Jon, no life of his own. The wall offers him an option at an honourable life.

Hey kiddo. You were milk brothers with this bastard child of the Lord who killed your celebrity uncle. Isn't that cool!

Just doesn't seem natural to me.

Wylla is Jon's mother, or so she gives out. So she's talking of her natural son, the bastard of another Lord, one who features significantly in recent Dayne family history (returned Dawn to them, an unbelievably significant thing, and supposedly was connected to Ned Dayne's Aunt Ashara).

So basically its shared family history/connections between Ned Dayne and his own nurse (who possibly operates in a similar beloved role at Starfall as Old Nan does, or did, in Winterfell). So it is prefectly natural for it to have come out between them.

But it doesn't matter what Jon wants. What matters is keeping the heir to the Iron Throne safe. Winterfell is safer than the Wall. Although it would make Ned uncomfortable to force a decision upon Cat, if he were smart, he would've fought her on the issue and let him stay in Winterfell.

No. Jon is not heir to the iron throne to Ned. That is gone, the Targaryens are done, the Baratheons are Ned Stark's true royal Dynasty. Jon is just Lyanna's son.

Then why does RLJ even matter? Jon would have to break his vows in order to assume the Throne. Is Jon going to find out he's a Targ only to do nothing with that information and continue life on the Wall?

And don't tell me being stabbed to death nullifies the vows,

We don't yet know whether or why it will matter, although there are several clear lines of clues and speculation from them.

Its always amusing to see people say "don't tell me this" about a plain fact they happen to not like. "It shall not end until my death". The Nights Watch vows last until death. If Jon dies, then his watch is ended (slightly different from nullified, but the same result), its that simple. Assuming he dies that is.

[Kingmonkey]

Bloodraven can see the future.

Bloodraven can see the past, through the memories in the trees. He can't see the future, because it's not memory yet. He has green dreams of the future, and interpretation of visions, even true ones, is a tricky business.

[Ygrain]

I think the fact that WF is being compared directly to a tree (and what other kind of tree would it be, really) = a yes to your question.

Thanks, that's a great connection!

I wonder whether this might have something to do with the Stark in Winterfell tradition - perhaps it originally meant that there always needed to be a family member who could tap into the weirnet and look out for the others, but this knowledge became forgotten.

I think Bran is a more likely candidate to be our eyes for seeing any more of the Ned, and Rhaegar was cremated so he's out.

As I pointed out above: being cremated =/= no bones left.

Hm. But I feel like Ned could have been like "Too fucking bad, I want him to stay here," and Cat wouldn't have actually kicked Jon out.

You can't really make the comparison, because Jon was going with the intent of being a ranger, while Aemon was a maester.

That would further antagonize Cat against Jon, though, and actually achieve nothing.

Ned's own brother was a ranger of NW and doing just fine. For all Ned knew, Benjen would be there to look out for Jon and mentor him and later on, Jon would resume Benjen's place as First ranger. Not such a bad deal.

But it doesn't matter what Jon wants. What matters is keeping the heir to the Iron Throne safe. Winterfell is safer than the Wall. Although it would make Ned uncomfortable to force a decision upon Cat, if he were smart, he would've fought her on the issue and let him stay in Winterfell.

The heir to the IT is Joffrey Baratheon (at that point). There is no way Ned would look to overthrow Robert's newly founded dynasty, so in his eye, Jon's claim is void and would only put his life in danger should people find out.

Then why does RLJ even matter? Jon would have to break his vows in order to assume the Throne. Is Jon going to find out he's a Targ only to do nothing with that information and continue life on the Wall?

It's not like we haven't seen Jon break some parts of his vow to keep its spirit before. If breaking the vows and assuming the throne is what it takes to protect the realms of men, then this is what must needs be done.

- To throw in my favourite line because I haven't in a while, and the situation is very similar:

Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. - Javik, Mass Effect.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I can't imagine a situation in which, for some plot twist, Jon is declared King (or heir to the IT), thus being giving the chance to actually have a way to fight the Others with real resources and the Watch says "oh, no, Jon, you can't because you have vows... let's fight the others with stones and snowballs".

[BearQueen87]

Thanks, that's a great connection!

I wonder whether this might have something to do with the Stark in Winterfell tradition - perhaps it originally meant that there always needed to be a family member who could tap into the weirnet and look out for the others, but this knowledge became forgotten.

That's a pretty neat idea. I definitely think there is a lot of forgotten knowledge when it comes to the Starks. If the family was close to the COTF (like...super long time ago) then it makes sense that the two races traded knowledge and maybe the Starks got some weirnet knowledge and now it's being played out again as Bran learns how to tap into it, just like ancestors of waaaaaay long ago.

Ned's own brother was a ranger of NW and doing just fine. For all Ned knew, Benjen would be there to look out for Jon and mentor him and later on, Jon would resume Benjen's place as First ranger. Not such a bad deal.

Ben's a great point.

[Ygrain]

Which reminds me that dead or alive, Benjen would be a great source on all the HH shenanigans.

[Kingmonkey]

I see your point. But that does lead to my next question: why didn't he tell Jon before he left for the Wall? Or, more importantly, why did he let him take the black? This is the unknown son of Rhaegar here, you're gonna let him take the vows of the Night's Watch and potentially die an icy death?

I think the TV show did an interesting thing by having Ned promise Jon that he would tell him about his mother the next time they met. Why next time not right then? Next time, Jon would have taken his vows.

[Kingmonkey]

Full PDF of all of the hints collected for all five books:

Here's one I just noticed that might make a good addition to your PDF:

"Good," he said, smiling. "I will give Lyanna your love, Ned. Take care of my children for me."

The words twisted in Ned's belly like a knife. For a moment he was at a loss. He could not bring himself to lie. Then he remembered the bastards: little Barra at her mother's breast, Mya in the Vale, Gendry at his forge, and all the others. "I shall . . . guard your children as if they were my own," he said slowly.

[J. Stargaryen]

I think the TV show did an interesting thing by having Ned promise Jon that he would tell him about his mother the next time they met. Why next time not right then? Next time, Jon would have taken his vows.

:agree:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I'm sorry, but of these 7 'clues' that you cite, only the 3rd & the 6th quotations offer any hint that R+L=J... I think you see dragons where there are none...

Take the first of those clues, for example. "Mance's blood is no more royal than my own", yet Mance named himself a King, and was acknowledged as a king by those living Beyond the Wall, and thus, is actually royal. Meaning, Mance's blood is thereby royal, and Jon's remark on how Mance's blood is no more royal than Jon's blood, is a hint towards Jon having actual royal blood.

Which would make him the son of a royalty.. which would be Rhaegar.

Full PDF of all of the hints collected for all five books:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/aepo0nihu8ie2i5/RLJ%20Quotes.pdf?dl=0

I will also add a link to my signature.

Cool! Well done, thank you :)

[Salafi Stannis]

Yeah. Except for the part where he dies there. ;)

I don't see why a rational Ned would let Jon put himself in danger by taking the black. He was better off staying in Winterfell, where he would have (or should have) been safest.

Because of his vows, he wouldn't be a danger to anybody there, it was the safest bet, even Maester Aemon, who was offered the IT, was long forgotten at the wall. And even if it is dangerous, it's still better than if he were discovered, where he would either be killed, or proclaimed king causing a war taking hundreds of thousands of lives.

[Salafi Stannis]

Even Bloodraven can't see the future. Hints connecting Jon Snow with Kingship could be indicating blood right rather than fate

He gets some greenseer glimpses, albeit nothing ironclad.

[Ellfoy]

I can't imagine a situation in which, for some plot twist, Jon is declared King (or heir to the IT), thus being giving the chance to actually have a way to fight the Others with real resources and the Watch says "oh, no, Jon, you can't because you have vows... let's fight the others with stones and snowballs".

Exactly. I'm always lol when someone says that Jon would refuse to be King because of his vows if offered. It would be incredibly stupid to refuse in the matter of the incoming fight against the WW.

Side-note : shouldn't we had "Why Ned didn't tell Cat ?" and the answer in the frequently asked questions in the OP ?

[Salafi Stannis]

shouldn't we had "Why Ned didn't tell Cat ?" and the answer in the frequently asked questions in the OP ?

Also, we should add answers to the "Why would Jon care if he's legit" question.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Full PDF of all of the hints collected for all five books:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/aepo0nihu8ie2i5/RLJ%20Quotes.pdf?dl=0

I will also add a link to my signature.

Great job--really appreciate it. And better to be "over inclusive" than "under inclusive"--so for those who think some of the "evidence" is not real "evidence" of R+L=J, then just ignore those points. But it can never hurt to have a list of anything that "might" be considered evidence of R+L=J. Quibbling over a project someone did as a favor to the rest of us is just rude--make your own list if you don't like this one. I believe it is intended as a resource and not a argument. Everyone should simply be thanking sj4ij and moving on (IMHO).

[sj4iy]

Great job--really appreciate it. And better to be "over inclusive" than "under inclusive"--so for those who think some of the "evidence" is not real "evidence" of R+L=J, then just ignore those points. But it can never hurt to have a list of anything that "might" be considered evidence of R+L=J. Quibbling over a project someone did as a favor to the rest of us is just rude--make your own list if you don't like this one. I believe it is intended as a resource and not a argument. Everyone should simply be thanking sj4ij and moving on (IMHO).

Thanks. I did try to avoid the most obscure stuff, but if I thought that it could reasonably be construed as a clue, I put it on there.

I included possible foreshadowing about Jon being the Prince that was Promised or AAR because both of those prophecies refer to a 'promised prince'. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean there's a connection, but there could be, and that's why I included it.

I think the real take-away from my list is just how much Rhaegar and Lyanna are discussed, and how even random people in the story talk about Rhaegar's love for Lyanna. I didn't realize just how much they are mentioned until I started looking, but it's all throughout the story.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Full PDF of all of the hints collected for all five books:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/aepo0nihu8ie2i5/RLJ%20Quotes.pdf?dl=0

I will also add a link to my signature.

Thank you, sj4iy! (I've made a few compilations of text quotes myself, and I do appreciate the effort it takes. :) )

[sj4iy]

Thank you, sj4iy! (I've made a few compilations of text quotes myself, and I do appreciate the effort it takes. :) )

Anytime :)