[Spoiler's All] Marwyn The Mage Of The Citadel VS. Moqorro The Dark Flame Of The Red Church: The Battle For Danaerys

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

The Red Priests see human sacrifice by live burning as a means of gaining R'hllor's favour. Dany has personal experience of just how effective such live burning can be. So, I could see her being convinced by their arguments that their god is real, and that she is his Chosen One. There are various issues.

1. Should an entity that requires live burning be worshipped at all? Might not such an entity in fact be malign?

2. What is Azhor Ahai reborn supposed to do? Purge the world of unbelievers? Fight the Others? Free slaves?

3. If Dany is at the head of a religious crusade, can she do anything to control it, or would she be like Paul Atreides; almost a god, but powerless to prevent massacres in her name?

I don't believe Dany will convert to the Red faith, even though she knows magic works from burning people she believes that magic is based off dragons/valyria/ her bloodline etc, she even calls it a magic "older and stronger than one any maegi has learnt", so I don't see her being swayed by the belief that magic is from a Red god. I can even argue that she will be skeptical considering they might state that her dragons were given to her from Rhllor.

Also, Dany's religious views reflect the people that follow her, which is a diverse group. She respects all religions even her enemies but doesn't take one as the truth, contrasting that to Stannis who follows religion based on the power. I don't see Dany converting to the faith, the least that I think would happen her just allowing them to follow her like everyone else.

[SeanF]

I don't believe Dany will convert to the Red faith, even though she knows magic works from burning people she believes that magic is based off dragons/valyria/ her bloodline etc, she even calls it a magic "older and stronger than one any maegi has learnt", so I don't see her being swayed by the belief that magic is from a Red god. I can even argue that she will be skeptical considering they might state that her dragons were given to her from Rhllor.

Also, Dany's religious views reflect the people that follow her, which is a diverse group. She respects all religions even her enemies but doesn't take one as the truth, contrasting that to Stannis who follows religion based on the power. I don't see Dany converting to the faith, the least that I think would happen her just allowing them to follow her like everyone else.

I suppose she could be seen as having more than one avatar, depending on which religion her followers adopt. AA Reborn, The Prince Who Was Promised, The Stallion Who Mounts the World.

[PatrickStormborn]

Well, Dany is currently in the Dothraki Sea... She's not really in a position to choose between either of them.

I still think the battle will end badly and Meereen will be all but deserted with no one there actually encountering Daenerys until later in the novel, but I can see narrative reasons for the arrival of all the characters... apart from Marwyn. Tyrion's journey still has a narrative purpose even if he doesn't meet Dany because it could lead to an encounter with a dragon; similarly Victarion's presence in the battle is perhaps more important than actually meeting Daenerys; and Moqorro's importance seems to be linked with dragonbinder rather than Daenerys herself. But the same is not true for Marwyn. There's a reason he was Mirri Maz Duur's tutor, there's a reason he departed for Daenerys after everyone else and will arrive last, and there's a reason his departure ended A Feast for Crows.

[Blazfemur]

Marwyn has been said to make sacrifices to queer gods so he is not a die hard worshiper of the Seven. I think he is kind of the Septon Barth of the Citadel. Barth was a septon who was reputedly interested in magic, and called more a sorcerer than a septon. He served the Targaryens even though his organization, the Faith, fought them.

Why would Dany harm him when he came to help her and revealed the Citadel's plot with a heads up for their likely attempt to kill her dragons?

Dany does need a Grand Maester come to think of it, and who better than an archmaester of the Citadel who chose to side with her?

Also, I doubt Victarion's plan will go through, and Dany will marry him, especially if he kills Hizdahr and Barristan. I think the hints point more strongly to Dany killing him with Drogon.

If Danaerys finds out that it was Marwyn, that trained Mirri, the same blood sorceress that sacrificed her only pregnancy and then later paralyzed Drogo? Some uh, words may be exchanged, you dont think so?

"Bah no, that's alright, it's all in the past now!" - Danaerys :P

Theoretically yes, archmaester of the citadel would make a perfect candidate, it would sound amazing.

I could see Danaerys killing Victarian, but she would have to keep his ships in tact, and furthermore, Victarian's followers would need to switch over to Danaerys' cause, believably. I found it easier to swallow that they take the command from Victarian directly, if she and Victarian came to some sort of agreement

[Blazfemur]

Neither faction has her best interests at heart. Hell, no one coming to her has her best interests at heart. They all want something from her. That doesn't make her a pawn, necessarily, because it's still her choice how to react to these people. But even someone like Barristan came to her with an agenda, even if it was as simple as "giving the Lannisters the finger."

Having said that, I think Dany would be more inclined to start following the red god's religion. For one thing, as others have said, Marwyn is the one who taught Mirri and Dany is the one who burned Mirri, Marwyn's protege. So I think there's probably going to be bad blood there going both ways.

Dany styles herself as this sort of maternal messianic being as it is ("breaker of chains," yada yada). I think it's very reasonable to guess that a fire-based religion with a large slave following that sees her as its Jesus figure would sufficiently stroke her ego such that she could be persuaded to consider it. I'm actually more curious about how much control Benerro/Moqorro and their group want to exercise over her. If she strays from the playbook in a big way (maybe they don't even want her to go to Westeros at all), then what?

Y'damn right haha. It's actually the perfect final nail in the proverbial coffin to turn her full heel. She would believe she's doing the right thing.

To inherit a faith that MAKES her a messiah to add to her messiah/savior internal struggles? Of COURSE she'd buy into it.

In regards to how far they "want" her to go. If Benerro wanted her to limit her potential to Essos, i'd really be surprised. Come to think of it, he'd make one killer Grand Maester in her council, wouldnt he? Too far ahead of ourselves though.

I vote she goes Rh'llor, and thats how to becomes the book's end-all villain.

[Northernmonkey]

Quaithe warns against Moqorro (Darkflame) but not Marwyn (unless he's the perfumed seneschal). Basically I think Marwyn is the only one going to Meereen purely to protect Dany.

[Blazfemur]

What I find interesting are her house words, "Fire & Blood," and she frequently reiterates, "I will take what is mine with fire, and blood."

Red church = fire

Marwyn/Mirri = blood magic

Perhaps she alligns with them both, that would be one hell of foreshadowing, since the beginning of the damn book.

"I will take what is mine with Rh'llor & Marwyn."

i still see her siding with moqorro over marwyn though, especially if moqorro reminds her through his flame-seeing that it was Marwyn who taught the same magic that killed her child and husband

[Blazfemur]

Quaithe warns against Moqorro (Darkflame) but not Marwyn (unless he's the perfumed seneschal). Basically I think Marwyn is the only one going to Meereen purely to protect Dany.

with blood magic, and a glass candle, and the capacity TO sacrifice, could Marwyn truly be benevolent?

[Blazfemur]

Furthermore, IF Danaerys chooses Marwyn, and she finally eventually comes to confront Varys, how would Varys react TO Marwyn. If Marwyn IS the sorceror, that snipped him.

[Northernmonkey]

with blood magic, and a glass candle, and the capacity TO sacrifice, could Marwyn truly be benevolent?

Not necessarily, but his motives are clear - to protect Dany and he dragons.

[Northernmonkey]

If Danaerys finds out that it was Marwyn, that trained Mirri, the same blood sorceress that sacrificed her only pregnancy and then later paralyzed Drogo? Some uh, words may be exchanged, you dont think so?

Marwyn didn't kill Drogo or her unborn child. I don't see how Dany could directly blame him for that. Bear in mind that Marwyn brings news from Aemon, one of Dany's relatives, not to mention news of the others. Dany would be foolish not to accept his help.

[Blazfemur]

Marwyn didn't kill Drogo or her unborn child. I don't see how Dany could directly blame him for that. Bear in mind that Marwyn brings news from Aemon, one of Dany's relatives, not to mention news of the others. Dany would be foolish not to accept his help.

i know Marwyn himself didnt, but it was marwyn's training to mirri, that caused her to lose her baby and husband.

dont get me wrong, marwyn would make one hell of an ally, i agree. but will danaerys see him that way? if there is a "competition" of sorts, if marwyn and moqorro have different interests for her, the subject may come up.

though, one would also argue, that Rhaego & Drogo HAD to die, for her dragons to be born (the blood magic needs blood, right?). Rhaego was the price, to hatch those dragons,

[Fire Eater]

If Danaerys finds out that it was Marwyn, that trained Mirri, the same blood sorceress that sacrificed her only pregnancy and then later paralyzed Drogo? Some uh, words may be exchanged, you dont think so?

"Bah no, that's alright, it's all in the past now!" - Danaerys :P

Theoretically yes, archmaester of the citadel would make a perfect candidate, it would sound amazing.

I could see Danaerys killing Victarian, but she would have to keep his ships in tact, and furthermore, Victarian's followers would need to switch over to Danaerys' cause, believably. I found it easier to swallow that they take the command from Victarian directly, if she and Victarian came to some sort of agreement

She might be initially suspicious, but I think Marwyn could persuade her given just by pointing out he had no way of knowing Dany would come upon MMD, and know what she would do.

I think Victarion's followers could join her if Tyrion promises them golden rewards, and I doubt they will say no with dragons in their faces.

[Blazfemur]

She might be initially suspicious, but I think Marwyn could persuade her given just by pointing out he had no way of knowing Dany would come upon MMD, and know what she would do.

I think Victarion's followers could join her if Tyrion promises them golden rewards, and I doubt they will say no with dragons in their faces.

The initial instigator of foreshadowing in me wants to believe "I will take what is mine with fire and blood," that she will side with BOTH Marwyn & Moqorro. I already can see her accepting Moqorro in MY flames, but Marwyn needs to choose his words wisely, especially if Moqorro can see the connection between him and Mirri.

But my initial reaction was, Quaithe warned her. Which puts in my mind, that there will be a conflict between the red church and marwyn. However, who's to say Quaithe is even working with Marwyn. She has a glass candle more than likely, but she may be a separate sect altogether.

I believe there's a reason why she wears a mask. I think it was Tyrion who said it best, "Why is it whenever a man builds a wall, another man immediately wants to know what's on the other side of it." It's the same premise with masks, for me anyway.

Maybe Quaithe is Serra. Who knows, but my point is, it's someone we've heard about I think. Her true identity, i mean.

Also, the fact that Victarian and Moqorro have that horn, that would appear to be an act of aggression. Seizing control, if you will.

Then again, having a dragon horn would be useful if you wanted to tame, then ride, a dragon. *shrugs*

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Quaithe warns against Moqorro (Darkflame) but not Marwyn (unless he's the perfumed seneschal). Basically I think Marwyn is the only one going to Meereen purely to protect Dany.

Which is probably why she'll end up glomming onto Moqorro and shunning Marwyn. Her track record has been pretty solid in this regard: She gets on well (at first) with people who are untrustworthy, while rejecting or being distrustful of people who are ultimately probably harmless. I actually think that's a very "Dany" thing to do, trusting Moqorro but sending Marwyn away.

And bear in mind too that Marwyn is going to her unaware of what she did to Mirri; if he asks her how the dragons hatched, which I'd take as a given, then ...

[Blazfemur]

Which is probably why she'll end up glomming onto Moqorro and shunning Marwyn. Her track record has been pretty solid in this regard: She gets on well (at first) with people who are untrustworthy, while rejecting or being distrustful of people who are ultimately probably harmless. I actually think that's a very "Dany" thing to do, trusting Moqorro but sending Marwyn away.

And bear in mind too that Marwyn is going to her unaware of what she did to Mirri; if he asks her how the dragons hatched, which I'd take as a given, then ...

hmm.. cant underestimate the power of the glass candle though. he MAY know EVERYthing. quaithe may or may not be his.

the concept of "Rhaego HAD to die, just so the dragons couldve been born" is still on the table, too. the marriage WAS in fact orchestrated, was it with the purpose of her getting pregnant JUST to hatch the eggs?

they picked the dothraki, does it say anywhere that they have valyrian, or "old" blood (valyrian blood is by my theories what powers red magic, spellforging, etc)?

im wondering if the whole thing was a set up to hatch the dragons and it wasnt necessarily all accident.

[Blazfemur]

I mean, take for example the tragedy at Summerhall. not a lto is known, but the basic premise, was blood sacrifice to hatch a dragon. the knowledge of blood sacrifices arent THAT secretive. and it wasnt THAT long ago that it happened.

You really think one of the series' big masterminds just gave Danaerys 3 petrified dragon eggs just as a gift, with no intention on them being hatched?

i kinda think things are in fact, going according to plan somewhat. Rhaego was a planned sacrifice. That, or one of the targaryens (Dany/Viserys) were gonna get it. Probably Viserys, as he was obviously unruly and mad. Perhaps that'swhy Illyrio let himself "follow" Viserys

[Fire Eater]

Which is probably why she'll end up glomming onto Moqorro and shunning Marwyn. Her track record has been pretty solid in this regard: She gets on well (at first) with people who are untrustworthy, while rejecting or being distrustful of people who are ultimately probably harmless. I actually think that's a very "Dany" thing to do, trusting Moqorro but sending Marwyn away.

And bear in mind too that Marwyn is going to her unaware of what she did to Mirri; if he asks her how the dragons hatched, which I'd take as a given, then ...

I don't know why GRRM would send Marwyn to Dany just to be sent packing. How else are we going to learn about the Citadel's conspiracy? I think Tyrion would vouch for Marwyn.

If Dany is going to take in Tyrion whose father killed her niece and nephew and whose brother killed her father, then I don't understand why she would reject Marwyn just for this connection with MMD?

[Blazfemur]

i think the solution is the following:

which does danaerys love more, the son that never was, or the dragons that exist.

who would she love more, rhaego, or her 3 dragons as they are now?

that's how i would bring it up, if i were in marwyn's shoes

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't know why GRRM would send Marwyn to Dany just to be sent packing. How else are we going to learn about the Citadel's conspiracy? I think Tyrion would vouch for Marwyn.

Her rejecting him doesn't preclude him from still having a role of some sort.

ETA: And she hasn't "taken in" Tyrion yet.

the concept of "Rhaego HAD to die, just so the dragons couldve been born" is still on the table, too. the marriage WAS in fact orchestrated, was it with the purpose of her getting pregnant JUST to hatch the eggs?

There's no way they could have predicted that the eggs would hatch. There was no reason to think that, and there was no way they could control what it took to hatch them, unless you think they engineered Drogo's infection, Mirri being at that place at that time to offer Dany help, Drogo ignoring Mirri's advice, Dany losing the baby, Dany deciding to burn Mirri, etc. Varys is good but he's not omnipotent.