Jon Snow should stay how he is...dead.

[TheMachine]

By not being a high school fanficker, and by being one of the most significant fantasy and sci-fi writers of the last thirty years, it's highly unlikely that GRRM will write out one of the three most significant characters of an epic that he's been writing for twenty years. GRRM's logic >>>>>>>>>>>> what some of the more oddball fans are thinking. As the grand old meme goes, GRRM is not your bitch.

Could not have said it any better!!

[sj4iy]

I think king's blood will be of primary importance in the healing of Jon. Bran is blood to two kings (Robb and Jon).

...Jon doesn't just have 'king's blood' through his relation to others, though- he very likely IS a king. I can't imagine that anyone's blood would be more powerful than his when it comes to Jon recovering from his injuries.

[sj4iy]

But Jon isn't dead...

He's badly injured, maybe he's dying. We don't know right now and won't until TWOW is released

But he can't stay dead if he's not dead yet, and the fact that he isn't dead means that some kind of resurrection may not be needed

This, this and this. People are jumping ahead, I think.

[Stannis Baratheon I]

I've always been slightly perplexed by the amount of love that Jon recieves, and the lack of attention to the subtle styles Martin employs within his stories. People believe that characters such as Daenerys, Tyrion and Jon on the merit of their POV status have some type of plot armor, when readers should understand this isn't the case. Each of Martin's POV's simply act as a vessal of providing the reader with more insight into his world, and most of the time it is the POV characters who are acting in reaction to something than spuring the action along.

E.G aside from Tyrion's defense of Black water the majority of his story in King's Landing centered around trying to skirt around and react to moves performed by other characters such as Joffrey or Varys. Martin doesn't grant us the views of the actual characters driving the action along since that would spoil the shock of major events, so we are given the perspectives of characters in a position to read the scenario and provide us their interpretation, albeit often times an incorrect one. All the while characters such as Robert(King), Renly("King"), Robb("King"), Joffrey("King"), Stannis(King), Balon("King"), Euron("King"), Varys, Littlefinger, etc are the ones predominately making the large scale decisions impacting the story.

With that said the statement that Jon's story is just another play on the lowly child turned messianic hero/king/dragon rider is a laughably cheap way to complete an otherwise unique and original story. Jon's story most likely isn't over, the audience knows that wargs can live in other animals, but to think that Jon is going to be resurected by Melissandre who hasn't been shown to be able to bring the dead to life like Thoros seems like a fan fiction stretch. Jon being set up to be Azor Ahai seems like a red herring if I've ever seen one, almost as if Martin purposefully has been feeding the audience with the idea so that when he rips the carpet out from beneath them they'll be stunned. A fantastic example I've seen on the forums about this is insistence that Melissandre seeing "Snow" in the fires when asking for Stannis means that Jon is actually Azor Ahai. But she doesn't say she see's the "Bastard snow, or Jon Snow" it's actual snow. Prior to the end of ADWD however the audience is provided ample evidence that Stannis, Asha and Co. are marching through blizzards so bad that they're struggling to see feet in front of themselves, which to me could be what the snows in the fire are showing.

I agree with the sentiments of the OP. I like Jon, but do I think that he's the main character of the story? No, I don't think that any of the POV characters are the central protaganist as much as relayers of information, insight and perspective to the audience. Even if R+L=J what does that change? The Targs aren't in the line of succession anymore, and if Jon turned down the lordship of Winterfell because of his vows what would make him disregard those same vows for a claim that even his father had no interest in, why would borderline personality disorder Dany care about his claim coming before hers when she's ranting about blood and fire or adding more titles to her name? This isn't the picture perfect fantasy Lord of the Rings, or the story of King Arthur. It's the dark ASOIAF where the main character of the first novel is beheaded for doing the right thing, and his heir and wife are butchered at a wedding, bad things happen to likable people just like the real world. Jon as Jon is likely over, I just wish that the theories inspired by factional preference like the series of them around Jon (He's the King of the North who although having surrendered all rights to lands and claims in exchange for being outside the law is gonna ride the untamed and vicious dragons to save the realm from the others as the prophetic Azor Ahai, who cares that Martin hasn't been that flamboyant with his magic!) would relax and stop trying to make the series jump the shark.

[sj4iy]

I've always been slightly perplexed by the amount of love that Jon recieves, and the lack of attention to the subtle styles Martin employs within his stories. People believe that characters such as Daenerys, Tyrion and Jon on the merit of their POV status have some type of plot armor, when readers should understand this isn't the case. Each of Martin's POV's simply act as a vessal of providing the reader with more insight into his world, and most of the time it is the POV characters who are acting in reaction to something than spuring the action along.

E.G aside from Tyrion's defense of Black water the majority of his story in King's Landing centered around trying to skirt around and react to moves performed by other characters such as Joffrey or Varys. Martin doesn't grant us the views of the actual characters driving the action along since that would spoil the shock of major events, so we are given the perspectives of characters in a position to read the scenario and provide us their interpretation, albeit often times an incorrect one. All the while characters such as Robert(King), Renly("King"), Robb("King"), Joffrey("King"), Stannis(King), Balon("King"), Euron("King"), Varys, Littlefinger, etc are the ones predominately making the large scale decisions impacting the story.

With that said the statement that Jon's story is just another play on the lowly child turned messianic hero/king/dragon rider is a laughably cheap way to complete an otherwise unique and original story. Jon's story most likely isn't over, the audience knows that wargs can live in other animals, but to think that Jon is going to be resurected by Melissandre who hasn't been shown to be able to bring the dead to life like Thoros seems like a fan fiction stretch. Jon being set up to be Azor Ahai seems like a red herring if I've ever seen one, almost as if Martin purposefully has been feeding the audience with the idea so that when he rips the carpet out from beneath them they'll be stunned. A fantastic example I've seen on the forums about this is insistence that Melissandre seeing "Snow" in the fires when asking for Stannis means that Jon is actually Azor Ahai. But she doesn't say she see's the "Bastard snow, or Jon Snow" it's actual snow. Prior to the end of ADWD however the audience is provided ample evidence that Stannis, Asha and Co. are marching through blizzards so bad that they're struggling to see feet in front of themselves, which to me could be what the snows in the fire are showing.

I agree with the sentiments of the OP. I like Jon, but do I think that he's the main character of the story? No, I don't think that any of the POV characters are the central protaganist as much as relayers of information, insight and perspective to the audience. Even if R+L=J what does that change? The Targs aren't in the line of succession anymore, and if Jon turned down the lordship of Winterfell because of his vows what would make him disregard those same vows for a claim that even his father had no interest in, why would borderline personality disorder Dany care about his claim coming before hers when she's ranting about blood and fire or adding more titles to her name? This isn't the picture perfect fantasy Lord of the Rings, or the story of King Arthur. It's the dark ASOIAF where the main character of the first novel is beheaded for doing the right thing, and his heir and wife are butchered at a wedding, bad things happen to likable people just like the real world. Jon as Jon is likely over, I just wish that the theories inspired by factional preference like the series of them around Jon (He's the King of the North who although having surrendered all rights to lands and claims in exchange for being outside the law is gonna ride the untamed and vicious dragons to save the realm from the others as the prophetic Azor Ahai, who cares that Martin hasn't been that flamboyant with his magic!) would relax and stop trying to make the series jump the shark.

No, she doesn't see 'actual snow'. 'Actual snow' wouldn't be capitalized. When she said "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow", she's very clearly talking about someone's last name and not frozen precipitation- otherwise, it wouldn't be capitalized in the middle of a sentence.

Taken in context, it's very obvious that she's talking about Jon Snow.

“What do you see, my lady?” the boy asked, softly.

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow. Whenever she was asked what she saw within her fires, Melisandre would answer, “Much and more,” but seeing was never as simple as those words suggested. It was an art, and like all arts it demanded mastery, discipline, study. Pain. That too. R’hllor spoke to his chosen ones through blessed fire, in a language of ash and cinder and twisting flame that only a god could truly grasp. Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow. “Devan,” she called, “a drink.” Her throat was raw and parched.

I don't see how anyone could argue that, given the context of this statement and the capitalization of the word 'Snow', that she's talking about anything other than Jon.

Does this make him AAR? Of course, not. It's evidence in his favor, though...one that too many people are willing to disregard or ignore entirely.

[True.Edged]

Jon isn't dead. (GRRM has implied as much with the "oh so you think he's dead" line)

If he was dead, which he isn't, I would certainly hope he stays that way.

[marsyao]

Why should he stay dead? I'd say he still has more to do. If he's not the one leading the attack against the Others, I'm going to be incredibly upset.

GRRM also said that Jon is going to find out who his mother is...which he can't do if he's dead.

After he made so many stupid mistakes? What kind a leader would so radically change his outfit without making sure his followers are on board?

[H0X0]

*snip*

Each of Martin's POV's simply act as a vessal of providing the reader with more insight into his world, and most of the time it is the POV characters who are acting in reaction to something than spuring the action along.

E.G aside from Tyrion's defense of Black water the majority of his story in King's Landing centered around trying to skirt around and react to moves performed by other characters such as Joffrey or Varys. Martin doesn't grant us the views of the actual characters driving the action along since that would spoil the shock of major events, so we are given the perspectives of characters in a position to read the scenario and provide us their interpretation, albeit often times an incorrect one. All the while characters such as Robert(King), Renly("King"), Robb("King"), Joffrey("King"), Stannis(King), Balon("King"), Euron("King"), Varys, Littlefinger, etc are the ones predominately making the large scale decisions impacting the story.

*snip*

I agree with the sentiments of the OP. I like Jon, but do I think that he's the main character of the story? No, I don't think that any of the POV characters are the central protaganist as much as relayers of information, insight and perspective to the audience.

*snip*

daaaaaaeeenerrrrys....?

(queen...has whole armies moving for/against her...about 1/4 named characters plots are moving around her. How much more central can you get...in a very diffuse story)

[sj4iy]

After he made so many stupid mistakes? What kind a leader would so radically change his outfit without making sure his followers are on board?

The kind who has no choice if he wants to save life on earth. And most people were "on board" and agreed with him. He certainly wasn't attacked by the entire NW, unless the NW consists of only 5 people now.

[kompaya]

Somehow I don't think you actually "love Jon."

GRRM has all but said that there's more to his story, e.g. that he'll find out who his parents are.

But hey, have fun being pissed.

Duche!

[UnmaskedLurker]

I agree with the people who state that Jon Snow is not dead--and will not need to be resurrected. I think it will be more like Bran--in a coma for a while (and warged into Ghost) until his body can heal and some form of "special magic" (I agree it will be akin to Dany's dragon birth scene) brings Jon out of his coma. Jon will not be UnJon--he will be the real Jon although I am sure he will have been somewhat more "wolfish" from his extended time in Ghost.

As to who are really the "main" characters, I believe it is Jon, Dany and Tyrion. And not because they are POV characters--there are many other POV characters as well who are not main characters. It is because when I "step back" and look at the structure of the entire series, the story seems to be about them (not only them, but them more than any others). It is a judgment call based on literary structure. The clues that Jon is AAR and TPTWP are fairly strong. I know the "trope haters" out there think GRRM would never do anything so straight forward, but I think it only looks straight forward now. At the time that GRRM originally structured the series--and thought it would be only 3 books--I don't think making Jon the prophecized hero seems quite so cliche as it might now that everyone has lived with the assumption of R+L=J for so long.

[Whitering]

I wouldn't mind of Jon was dead, I even like the character, in Dance more than ever, but let's face it, too many Beric things walking around. I will be sad if he's dead, but I was sad when Ned died, and a few other characters. More PoVs do need to die, let's face it. Plus it would derail some theories which would be fun on this board.

[Kwitter]

I agree, otherwise we wouldn't have any major character deaths since book three...

I mean Brienne turned out to be alive and the only deaths from the top of my head (from book 4-5) are Kevan, maybe Podrick and... I can't think of any more :drunk:

The show is gonna have a hard time sticking to the "no one is safe" motto from now on without killing of characters that are alive in the books (like Jojen).

[Janicia]

I agree, otherwise we wouldn't have any major character deaths since book three...

I mean Brienne turned out to be alive and the only deaths from the top of my head (from book 4-5) are Kevan, maybe Podrick and... I can't think of any more :drunk:

The show is gonna have a hard time sticking to the "no one is safe" motto from now on without killing of characters that are alive in the books (like Jojen).

A big part of that is that the battles of Mereen and Winterfell didn't end up happening in book 5. Those battles will surely have significant casualties, which could make book 6 quite bloody.

[marsyao]

The kind who has no choice if he wants to save life on earth. And most people were "on board" and agreed with him. He certainly wasn't attacked by the entire NW, unless the NW consists of only 5 people now.

I am he is a bad leader because he "has no choice if he wants to save life on earth", I say he is a bad leader because he did little to trying to convince his senior lieutenants before he made such a radical change in NW, and how do you know all other NW would agree with him? I am sure there were plenty of other NW would oppose his policy, because I never saw him communicate to anybody, all he did was giving order and rolling his eyes whenever there was a different opinions.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I am he is a bad leader because he "has no choice if he wants to save life on earth", I say he is a bad leader because he did little to trying to convince his senior lieutenants before he made such a radical change in NW, and how do you know all other NW would agree with him? I am sure there were plenty of other NW would oppose his policy, because I never saw him communicate to anybody, all he did was giving order and rolling his eyes whenever there was a different opinions.

Consider that GRRM cannot make Jon too good a leader. If he did everything perfectly, there would be no story. So Jon makes mistakes, but making mistakes does not mean he is a bad leader--most leaders make some mistakes--he simply is not a perfect leader. GRRM is not interested in writing about perfect leaders.

[Squab]

He cant be dead, GRRM would lose too many readers during the prime milking time (4 or 5 books released since Dance, all set in Planetos, none of the TWOW). Even if he wanted to, i dont think the publishers would let him, not that i really know what say they have.

[sj4iy]

I am he is a bad leader because he "has no choice if he wants to save life on earth", I say he is a bad leader because he did little to trying to convince his senior lieutenants before he made such a radical change in NW, and how do you know all other NW would agree with him? I am sure there were plenty of other NW would oppose his policy, because I never saw him communicate to anybody, all he did was giving order and rolling his eyes whenever there was a different opinions.

No, he never communicated anything to anyone:

“Lord Mormont’s last ranging cost the Watch a quarter of its men, my lord. We need to conserve what strength remains us. Every death diminishes us, and we are stretched so thin ... Take the high ground and win the battle, my uncle used to say. No ground is higher than the Wall, Lord Commander.”

“Stannis promises land, food, and justice to any wildlings who bend the knee. He will never permit us to seal the gates.”

Marsh hesitated. “Lord Snow, I am not one to bear tales, but there has been talk that you are becoming too ... too friendly with Lord Stannis. Some even suggest that you are ... a ...”

A rebel and a turncloak, aye, and a bastard and a warg as well. Janos Slynt might be gone, but his lies lingered. “I know what they say.” Jon had heard the whispers, had seen men turn away when he crossed the yard. “What would they have me do, take up swords against Stannis and the wildlings both? His Grace has thrice the fighting men we do, and is our guest besides. The laws of hospitality protect him. And we owe him and his a debt.”<- REASON

“Lord Stannis helped us when we needed help,” Marsh said doggedly, “but he is still a rebel, and his cause is doomed. As doomed as we’ll be if the Iron Throne marks us down as traitors. We must be certain that we do not choose the losing side.”-> STUBBORN RESISTANCE TO REASON

“It is not my intent to choose any side,” said Jon, “but I am not as certain of the outcome of this war as you seem to be, my lord. Not with Lord Tywin dead.”

Conclusion: Bowen Marsh is CLEARLY choosing a side (The Iron Throne) despite the fact that the NW isn't supposed to do that. Jon is CLEARLY explaining to him that the NW can't stop Stannis from taking what he wants, nor can they fight Stannis and the Wildlings both at the same time. Marsh's advice was not heeded, because it was irrational in the face of the facts.

---

"...In winters past, food could be brought up the kingsroad from the south, but with the war ... it is still autumn, I know, but I would advise we go on winter rations nonetheless, if it please my lord.”->BOWEN MARSH GIVES ADVICE

The men will love that. “If we must. We’ll cut each man’s portion by a quarter.” If my brothers are complaining of me now, what will they say when they’re eating snow and acorn paste?-> JON TAKES ADVICE

Conclusion: Jon has listened to Marsh's worries and decides to heed his advice.

---

“We can always hunt if need be,” Wick Whittlestick put in. “There’s still game in the woods.”-> SUGGESTION ON HOW TO FEED EVERYONE DURING THE WINTER

“And wildlings, and darker things,” said Marsh. “I would not send out hunters, my lord. I would not.”-> MARSH'S SUGGESTION

Conclusion: Jon needs a way to feed everyone during the winter or they will run out of food. Whittlestick suggests sending out hunters for food. Marsh says not to- even though he's the one complaining that they don't have enough food. Yet Marsh offers no viable alternative. Nothing.

---

The Lord Steward was trotting down the column, pointing and fussing, his cheeks red from the cold. When he spied Jon, they reddened even more. “Lord Commander. Are you still intent on this ...”

“... folly?” finished Jon. “Please tell me you were not about to say folly, my lord. Yes, I am. We have been over this. Eastwatch wants more men. The Shadow Tower wants more men. Greyguard and Icemark as well, I have no doubt, and we have fourteen other castles still sitting empty, long leagues of Wall that remain unwatched and undefended.”-> REASON

Marsh pursed his lips. “Lord Commander Mormont—”-> MARSH'S UNREASONABLE APPEAL

“—is dead. And not at wildling hands, but at the hands of his own Sworn Brothers, men he trusted. Neither you nor I can know what he would or would not have done in my place.” Jon wheeled his horse around. “Enough talk. Away.”

Conclusion: Jon gives a very reasonable explanation as to why he needs the Wildlings to help them defend the Wall. Marsh offers no reason as to why Jon shouldn't do it other than what he THINKS Mormont would have done...which is no reason at all, given what Mormont had said before he died about the Wildlings not being the enemy.

---

Bowen Marsh felt it best not to take chances, and for once he and Jon were agreed.

Conclusion: Jon takes Marsh's advice once again when going to appeal to the Molestown Wildlings.

---

“What will you do with them?” Bowen Marsh asked Jon on the ride back up the kingsroad.-> QUESTION

“Train them, arm then, and split them up. Send them where they’re needed. Eastwatch, the Shadow Tower, Icemark, Greyguard. I mean to open three more forts as well.”-> EXPLANATION

The Lord Steward glanced back. “Women too? Our brothers are not accustomed to having women amongst them, my lord. Their vows ... there will be fights, rapes ...”

“These women have knives and know how to use them.”

“And the first time one of these spearwives slits the throat of one of our brothers, what then?”-> CONCERN

“We will have lost a man,” said Jon, “but we have just gained sixty-three. You’re good at counting, my lord. Correct me if I’m wrong, but my reckoning leaves us sixty-two ahead.”-> REASON

Conclusion: Jon very clearly explains why he wants to put Wildlings up on the Wall, and why it's an acceptable risk to take.

---

Clearly, I could go on and on and on and on finding the examples and pointing out how Jon really does explain his reasoning to his men every time they have a concern and really does take Marsh's advice...but at this point, I think some people have so convinced themselves that Jon never explains himself or gives any reason for why he does what he does that it's probably a waste of my time.

What's clear to me is that Jon was never GOING to be able to convince them in the first place, because they absolutely won't open themselves up to the idea that Jon is trying to do what's best for the Night's Watch and the realm. They see Stannis as a traitor and worry about what the IT will do to them, instead of worrying about what the army of undead will do to everyone if they breach the Wall. Jon is in a no-win situation- he was never going to please Marsh or those like him that worry about what the Iron Throne will do to them for daring to accept help from a rebel...despite the fact that the Lannisters have treated the Night's Watch's pleas for help with contempt and ridicule.

Jon's real mistake was trusting Melisandre and Mance to bring back his sister and allowing the Night's Watch to get embroiled in that mess. But he didn't make any mistakes by not taking the advice of cowards who refused to see sense.

[CaptainTheo]

I agree with the OP in the sense that GRRM is bringing too many characters back from the dead; one (Beric) was probably enough. I did think when reading the book at the time that Jon was likely to be dead (and didn't consider him being resurrected).

[Dorian Martell]

Don't get me wrong,I love Jon and all but resurrections are becoming cheap and Jon snow being 'born admist salt and smoke' and being Azor Ahai just screams cheesiness. Also,can you blame Bowen Marsh? He's a dead man walking but Jon was forsaking his vows. Overall,Bowen Marsh has likely fucking executed the idea in bis head of the wildlings murdering the watch since Jon was the only one who could hold it together.

Let people be shocked in TWoW and let Jon just stay dead,if he's resurrected,I'm going be pissed.

He hasn't died yet. He just got repeatedly stabbed in the front and back. Once he dies this will be a viable thread