Jon Snow IS Dead

[dbrandow]

In my (obviously strong) opinion, to believe that Jon is dead, whether to be resurrected or to stay dead, is to have missed what I believe to be the storyline of the series. Jon is who the 'Song of Ice and Fire' is about; killing him at the end of the 5th book is nonsensical.

[WildBlood]

Some people seem to believe that not only is Jon Snow not dead, but also that he's not seriously injured. Let's review the events at the end of ADWD.

First, Wick cuts Jon. "When [Jon] put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers."

"Welled" is an interesting choice of words. That's a lot of blood. A lot more than say "leaked" or "dripped."

But, but, the wound is just a scratch! It can't be serious.

JON is the one who says that it's a scratch. But he can't even see the wound. He can, however, see the blood from the wound.

Next, "Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get his sword free of its scabbard."

So Jon, one of the best fighters in the NW, can't even draw his sword. Very interesting.

"Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free."

If he was wearing chainmail and wasn't seriously hurt, why does he "[fall] to his knees?" Why doesn't he get back up and fight?

"Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold . . ."

If Jon is barely hurt, why does he feel so much pain? Why does he just decide to just lie down and take a nap?

Now consider that the whole sequence of events probably took place in less than 30 seconds. If Jon went into shock and lost consciousness, he's now dead. Especially considering that there's no maester or other healer around to stop his blood loss. While it's quite likely that Jon Snow's consciousness is currently in Ghost, his real body is dead.

I disagree with a lot of this. First, Welled doesn't mean a lot of blood. When referring to liquid it simply means to rise to the surface. When referring to emotions it means to become more intense.

He did get stabbed a bit though, and is obviously going to be in bad shape. But. I don't believe this implies he is dead. I think that the fumbly fingers and 'all he felt was col' has more to do with the Others. A big part of me believes that the Others are amassing on the other side of the wall at this point and could be getting ready to attack. Maybe not, but I don't believe that Jon is dead one bit. I am not convinced by any of that text that he is mortally wounded.

[Hank of House Hutton]

In my opinion he will warg into Ghost (i mean his name is "Ghost" , like... the ghost of Jon).

His body will be put into an Icecell and the body loses all his warmth, meaning he lost his soul and ofcourse its frozen.

Then there are 2 options. 1. Melisandre gives him the kiss of life like Thoros to Beric, or 2. Hes be brought back like a Wight.

I prefer the Melisandre way.

PS. His dying is important so he can fufill some prophecies.

From here comes my Crackpot theorie,

I believe he will warg back into his own bodie and but just like Beric Dondarrion he will lose some of his memories and feelings.

And this effect will be greater as long as he was dead...

Also i believe the words " You know nothing Jon Snow" will have a knew meaning in this , because after some time he will litteraly know nothing of his past life and become an emotionless leader.

At the end my theorie is, that Bran will build up a connection to Jon to help him remember who he truly is and by this he will get to know his parents ect.

Well to be true thats just some unorganised thoughts, but i hope you get the point. :D

thats a pretty cool idea actually. good way to incorporate characters together and have Starks work together. im one to believe Jon doesnt die at all, i think he wargs into Ghost and jumps and attacks his attackers with Ghost. I think he'll come back to himself when like Val runs over to him or something along those lines. This will help him learn about his ability to warg into ghost and how to use it to his advantage.

i do see the possibility of Jon dying and being brought back and now is "clear of his duties," i just hope if that happens he doesnt lose any of himself as ive seen some people say. He's like the only front line fighter we have POVs of and i wanna see his full character react to the Others and fighting them and such

[Lady Blizzardborn]

they say AA will be born from salt and smoke. but if the tears from bowen marsh are the salt and the wounds that are smoking are an indication that Jon is AA, then isn't he dying instead of being born? not trying to be a smart ass but I was thinking about this today.

Azor Ahai is reborn amidst smoke and salt whilst a red star bleeds.

Ned remembers the sky at ToJ being "blood-streaked." That may or may not mean there's some kind of red star/comet, but...

Smoke, from the fire that is no doubt in the hearth in the tower. What's the first thing they do on TV when a baby is being born? Boil water. They needed a fire.

Salt, from Lyanna's tears.

Arthur Dayne (star), a Targaryen (red) supporter, is killed and no doubt bleeding. A red star bleeds.

Now that's if Azor Ahai's rebirth is someone else's birth. If it's AA's rebirth AND another character's rebirth, and Jon is to be AAR, then his "death" will lead to his rebirth.

[Slowpoke Martin]

The most important aspect of Jon dying is, how does it affect the story?

Every single other death of an important character in the story has had a significant impact on the story thus far.

Would Jon's death drive the story forward or would it just have a shock factor?

Biggest possible story impact scenario happening if Jon is truly dead:

Jon dies > wildlings kill NW > NW order is dead > magic on wall dies > White Walkers pass

Would Jon need to die for the White Walkers to break past the wall? Probably not, but that is up to GRRM to decide!

[addicted to snow]

Jon's future is very complicated... Too complicated to really discuss without people saying "that's too complicated"...

He is the Night's King... Jon is the BAD GUY, not the good guy that everyone thinks he is...

Is Jon's Body dead? DEFINITELY...

Will Jon's Body stay dead? No...

Will Jon be separated from his body for the whole next book? Yes

[The Missing Crannogman]

You haven't been paying attention if you think thats all for Jon Snow.

That's a very bold statement considering the book that Jon gets stabbed in opens with showing what happens when a warg dies... and then almost the very same thing happens to Jon

Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that’s in it, he thought, exulting. A hundred ravens took to the air, cawing as they felt him pass. A great elk trumpeted, unsettling the children clinging to his back. A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself. That was his last thought as a man.

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew. He bayed, and Sly and Stalker gave echo.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end.

When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

So I'm not sure if it's not you who hasn't been really paying attention. He could still be alive, but to say that just because someone thinks he's dead implies that someone hasn't been paying much attention, doesn't make much sense considering the prologue is pretty much a guideline to understand Jon's stabbing. Martin choose Varamyr for a reason to be the prologue POV.

And remember, just because someone dies doesn't mean that they have to stay dead in this universe. He can still accomplish everything that you feel he has to do plotwise (which is why you think he can't die), even though he died if he gets brought back.

[JonisHenryTudor]

That's a very bold statement considering the book that Jon gets stabbed in opens with showing what happens when a warg dies... and then almost the very same thing happens to Jon

So I'm not sure if it's not you who hasn't been really paying attention. He could still be alive, but to say that just because someone thinks he's dead implies that someone hasn't been paying much attention, doesn't make much sense considering the prologue is pretty much a guideline to understand Jon's stabbing. Martin choose Varamyr for a reason to be the prologue POV.

And remember, just because someone dies doesn't mean that they have to stay dead in this universe. He can still accomplish everything that you feel he has to do plotwise (which is why you think he can't die), even though he died if he gets brought back.

What is interesting is the two points you made bold. He actually says Ghosts name and then feels the cold. I personally find the prologue RH, and what really happens is Ghost intervenes and Jon is laying in the snow. Thus sees "Ghost" and feels "cold".

But that is me.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Jon's future is very complicated... Too complicated to really discuss without people saying "that's too complicated"...

He is the Night's King... Jon is the BAD GUY, not the good guy that everyone thinks he is...

Is Jon's Body dead? DEFINITELY...

Will Jon's Body stay dead? No...

Will Jon be separated from his body for the whole next book? Yes

I am just curious what brings you to this conclusion?

[Lord of Nutella]

Jon's future is very complicated... Too complicated to really discuss without people saying "that's too complicated"...

He is the Night's King... Jon is the BAD GUY, not the good guy that everyone thinks he is...

Is Jon's Body dead? DEFINITELY...

Will Jon's Body stay dead? No...

Will Jon be separated from his body for the whole next book? Yes

This again...how did you get that idea? Tbh, you sound like a troll. It just doesnt make any sense whatsoever.

[joluoto2]

The real question is: Is he as dead as Ned?

[Love Is A Sweet Poison]

Right. Well he is dying & will be reborn.

Not saying I believe it but that's how it'd work if it were true.

If the show makes an emphasis on the salt and smoke, I will believe it for sure. I for one, and hoping that JS is AA...he's one of my favorites.

[abandonship]

I thought GRRM said that at some point he would know who his mother is?

[Attitude]

Why is this even a discussion. He actually said to an interviewer: "Oh, you think he's dead, do you?"

I thought GRRM said that at some point he would know who his mother is?

Pretty sure he said that his parentage will be revealed. But that doesn't mean Jon has to know it at that point (even though it's likely, because why tell 'us' this but not him?

[WightWalker]

I agree that Jon is most likely temporarily dead, I think this has more potential to drive the plot rather than just being seriously injured. If Jon dies there's the opportunity for all sorts of things like AA or "now his watch is ended" and all that sort of stuff. Somehow he's going to come back (TBH I feel like the point of Thoros/Beric was to show that it could be done). But who knows how long that might take, it could happen right away or halfway through the book, who knows!

But about the whole "losing a part of yourself" thing that happened to Beric and Cat... They weren't wargs, there was nowhere for their souls to go when they died. Of course something will be lost if your soul is just floating around after you die. Meanwhile, Jon has Ghost as a sort of temporary vessel. Granted, we also know that wargs fade after a while. But this kind of loss would be a result of the warging, not from the actual resurrection itself. So this means that the duration of Jon's death might be significant for the character, does that make sense?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

The real question is: Is he as dead as Ned?

Nope. Ned is most certainly "all dead." While Jon could be just "mostly dead" which of course is partly alive. Or you know, he could be all alive, but in danger of becoming "mostly dead."

Beric was mostly dead each time Thoros brought him back. Cat on the other hand was all dead. So if Jon is going to be dead, and brought back, he needs to be not all dead for him to be remotely like himself when he becomes Jon 2.0.

[twikee]

it would be a million time better if jon was dead. but if jon dies, the whole wall plots would have been a waste of time and pages, just like quentyn's adventure. i personally think quentyn was added in ADwD just to "thicken" the book.

but anyway, jon should be dead.

[rayarts]

If you think Jon Snow is dead (as in Ned-dead), then you KNOW NOTHING :cool4:

[Destroyer of Nations]

Jon staying dead would be quite the plot twist. I always thought it was kind of obvious he would be resurrected. Though I do have to admit that should he stay, I would not really care that much.

[Varyslostloveball]

"welled" means it came up from underneath, it's not a statement of quantity.

Why fall to his knees? Shock. His own men attacked him.

If Jon went into shock and lost consciousness, he's now in a coma. I lose consciousness every night. But I don't die every night.

"He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold..."

Dead men do not feel the cold. And he may not have felt the fourth knife because the fourth knife never touched him.

Without knowing the depth of the wounds and whether any arteries or internal organs were hit, it's impossible to say that he is 1) dangerously injured, 2) just fine. The wounds may not be fatal, in which case he's still got the risk of infection.

You don't need a maester for basic first aid. I'm sure someone on the Wall knows to pour hot wine on the wounds and bind them. Someone probably can even do stitches.

The cold will also slow down bleeding, by thickening the blood.