eyenon15 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 So than it's not just a bunch of douchebags?Most of it is.The threats are the number one concern of this topic IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Well, now that we're back to "douchebags arguing on the Internet" starting point, I'll move on to Arthur Chu (the geeky game-theory guy who had a spectacular run on Jeopardy while upsetting some Jeopardy traditionalists) and his heartfelt, moving, and somewhat uncomfortably recognizable perspective on the threats against Felicia Day: Listen to the tone of the complaints Gamergate makes. Listen to the things they accuse the journalists and developers they hate of being — ”elitist,” “smug,” “cliquish.” The language of people angry because, as gamergaters keep saying, they feel they’re being kept out of a club, they’re “not being listened to.” They’re angry that the industry and the press don’t trust the fans, don’t reach out to them. That the “gamer” stereotype has been so discredited that people would celebrate en masse at the idea of “gamer” dominance of gaming being over. And I get it, Gamergate, I know. That look in people’s eyes that haunts you, the one that lurks behind the fake smile of every job interviewer who never calls you back, the one in the eyes of the popular kid whose gaze slides right over you. “You’re a loser, you’re a creep, you’re not worth my time.” How after the 10th, the 50th, the 5,000th time you’ve gotten that look you just want to lash out and scream. I’m not defending that feeling. That toxic swell of nerd entitlement that’s busy destroying everything I love. But I understand it very well. And Gamergate doesn’t understand that this feeling, this rage, only feeds the cycle of mistrust. That every time it erupts in an entitled tantrum it becomes another reason to distrust and dislike your fans. No one ought to be expected to just put up with death threats directed against Blizzard for the graphics in “Diablo III” or against Bioware for the ending of “Mass Effect 3″ or against a “Call of Duty” developer for a weapons patch. No one ought to have to apologize for giving ”The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess” a slightly worse grade than its fans thought it deserved. No one should receive tens of thousands of abusive messages within 24 hours just for a Kickstarter campaign proposing videos to criticize games. No one should have to discuss and defend their sex life in public because they once dared make a free game people didn’t like. And Felicia Day shouldn’t come under attack for admitting that the hatred filling gaming today, for the first time ever, made her cross the street to avoid a couple of guys wearing gaming T-shirts because being around gamers made her afraid. http://www.salon.com/2014/10/30/that_creepy_guy_from_the_internet_how_gamergate_shattered_faith_in_the_geek_community/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Most of it is.The threats are the number one concern of this topic IMO Human history boils down to "a bunch of douchebags". It's in the nuances, the tiny crevices between the rows of douchebags, that we can infer bits of wisdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 "It's right there in SEGA Genesis!"I lost it there too. That was inspired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyenon15 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Human history boils down to "a bunch of douchebags". It's in the nuances, the tiny crevices between the rows of douchebags, that we can infer bits of wisdom. Wisdom is subjective when two opposing sides are claiming to be the ones who have accumulated all the wisdom.I certainly don't think there's any mass wisdom being doled out courtesy of Twitter hashtags and 4chan rooms. Nor from game critics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Wisdom is subjective when two opposing sides are claiming to be the ones who have accumulated all the wisdom.I certainly don't think there's any mass wisdom being doled out courtesy of Twitter hashtags and 4chan rooms. No one is claiming all the wisdom. Sarkeesian certainly isn't. Go back to Nestor's post for a quick summation of Sarkeesian's critiques. And this is another time you try to draw a false equivalence between a single person making reasonable, well-supported points, and a group of people trying to shout her down. Maybe people have a tough time understanding you because you use sloppy language like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyenon15 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 No one is claiming all the wisdom. Sarkeesian certainly isn't. Go back to Nestor's post for a quick summation of Sarkeesian's critiques. Maybe people have a tough time understanding you because you use sloppy language like this.If you don't understand me then you don't have to respond.No one is forcing you to converse with a person you don't understand, you can move past it. It's quite alright.(If you don't understand this post, the problem is probably you. I'm being pretty clear here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Seemed to understand that one pretty well, you might just be getting better at this understanding stuff. So is Anita Sarkeesian claiming "all the wisdom?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyenon15 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 She certainly seems to wholeheartedly believe she is right about what she is saying.She seems just as confident in her views as anyone else who agrees or disagrees with her.She hasn't backed down or changed what she's been saying even after threats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 She certainly seems to wholeheartedly believe she is right about what she is saying.She seems just as confident in her views as anyone else who agrees or disagrees with her.She hasn't backed down or changed what she's been saying even after threats. And what do you think she is saying? Because I think she is just pointing out some fairly reasonable and easily observable instances of sexist portrayals of women in games. Do you disagree with the instances of sexism that she has pointed out? Are there any specific claims she has made that you find disagreeable? How do her critiques of specific instances of sexism in games amount to her claiming "all the wisdom?" Because somewhere in the muddle of your posts where you seemed to equate her with the people issuing threats against her, you seemed to suggest that you had trouble locating the point she was making in her "rants." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 [mod hat] Let's minimize the tit-for-tat style bickering please and get more on topic. [/mod hat] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyenon15 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 For one, when she says that a game having a female character presented in a sexualized way or a princess that needs rescuing reinforces in real life, the idea that women are sexual playthings and helpless,this requires a leap from the listener without anything provided to back up the claim.There's no clarity in what her goal is, does she want that no games with big breasted female characters or princess that need rescuing are allowed to be made? Is she demanding that someone make her a game where a princess rescues herself? If it's just about her and others receiving threats just for criticizing games, I'm behind that. Anyone should be free to criticize any game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 The way it's always phrased as a "demand" for better representation is interesting in the way it attempts to paint it as unreasonable. Customers providing feedback to media creators on the type of media they want to buy is fucking ubiquitous and hardcore gamers do it all the time. What the hell was the righteous fury around the end of Mass Effect if not a "demand" that BioWare do better? Hell GamerGate itself is just a glorified tantrum that developers continue to make the games they want and only those games. All the shit flung at Gone Home? Don't make games like that, we want these other games. Why the fuck is it supposed to be invalid for me, another gamer, to say to developers "actually I thought Gone Home was pretty awesome, I'd buy more stuff like that"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyenon15 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I for one, liked the mass effect ending, I probably did say fans demanded a change. I certainly recall thinking it if I never stated it to anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 For one, when she says that a game having a female character presented in a sexualized way or a princess that needs rescuing reinforces in real life, the idea that women are sexual playthings and helpless,this requires a leap from the listener without anything provided to back up the claim.There's no clarity in what her goal is, does she want that no games with big breasted female characters or princess that need rescuing are allowed to be made? Is she demanding that someone make her a game where a princess rescues herself?If it's just about her and others receiving threats just for criticizing games, I'm behind that. Anyone should be free to criticize any game. I think you have indeed lost the point she was making under a blizzard of your own hostility and resistance. Have you ever actually watched one of her videos? She points to tropes she finds problematic. She is not "demanding" anything, just trying to raise awareness of something she sees as an issue. But here you go again, advancing a stupid exaggeration that you will no doubt claim later means you're being misunderstood -- she is in no way saying no one should ever make games with helpless busty princesses. She's just asking for a little break from the monotony and a little more thought and sensitivity toward sexism from creators and consumers of games. If you don't see how the prevalence of female characters as helpless princesses to be rescued by a man reinforces real life sexual inequality, I don't think a series of web videos is going to help you understand. You may need to look elsewhere for the education and awareness you lack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyenon15 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 DG, I'm not interested in addressing your insults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigima Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 My read is that it's a call to be a little more thoughtful than we are now about our art form. No more, no less. It's art criticism, plain and simple. And if, in thinking about that, you notice certain tropes that are virtually omnipresent, maybe you also think a bit about why that is.Here's Arthur Chu in Salon. Worth a read. http://www.salon.com/2014/10/30/that_creepy_guy_from_the_internet_how_gamergate_shattered_faith_in_the_geek_community/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I also think eyenon15 is either deliberately mis-characterizing Sarkeesian's point by omission, or he hasn't watched her video on the topic of the damsel-in-distress trope. Sarkeesian traced the history of the trope in video games and offered a view of how so many video games in the 80s and 90s relied on this same scheme. The deliberate and unquestioned reptition is what makes this a trope, after all. And this trope is also evident in many SF/F literature, to the point where some authors set out deliberately to upend the tropes. Pointing out that video games fall victim to the same tropes by providing evidence of this happening is, apparently, according to eyenon, being unclear about the central thesis of the project. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 As I said last thread, if you wanted to sum up Sarkeesian's point in one pithy sentence it would be:"Holy shit this stuff happens ALOT in video games" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyenon15 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 So basically she's just a critic.Nothing wrong with that.I still disagree with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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