TWOIAF Spoilers: Ice dragon

[Fae Boleyn]

I don't have this book yet, but what was the timeframe of the sightings of these "ice dragons" as mentioned above?

There didn't seem to be one, it was just things sailors saw when traveling extreme north, which could imply more recent recording of these sightings, but that's all. The sightings are given more credence by the fact that Yandel theorized that this one creature, caught only in glimpses that didn't fully reveal it, can also explain other things sailors believed they saw.

On a side note, maybe ice dragons are the ones that hatched from that second moon but didn't drink sun fire. ;) (I'm mostly kidding but I couldn't resist.)

[greenseer1109]

When it comes to who his riding the ice dragon it would have to be someone who would be very cold to the touch because as per "The Ice Dragon" these dragons are much more sensitive to any cooler temperatures and would begin to melt at the touch.

Would lead me to assume it would have to be an other or an undead Jon to qualify as a rider.

[Barrick Eddon]

I have read "The Ice Dragon". The description in TWOIAF matches the one in the story.

Spoilers of "The Ice Dragon":

The story is told in the point of view of a little girl, and talks about two kingdoms at war, and dragon riders were common in both sides.

The ice dragon in the story fights the "fire" dragons and win, but dies and melts just like mentioned in TWOIAF

Other references to ASOIAF that I found was that it says the ice dragon comes from the "land of always winter" and it proposes the discussion: is it the cold that brings the ice dragon or is the ice dragon that brings the cold. However, the seasons in the story are periodic, but it also talks of the winter getting colder and colder every year.

Yea I have read that story it was a good book.

The Ice Dragon was a myth just like The Others , The Ice Dragon was evil just like The Others , The Ice Dragon won against three Fire Dragons and saved many kingdoms :commie:

[rozemarijn]

Yea I have read that story it was a good book.

The Ice Dragon was a myth just like The Others , The Ice Dragon was evil just like The Others , The Ice Dragon won against three Fire Dragons and saved many kingdoms :commie:

That ending would be very bittersweet indeed.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

I think it's possible that there will be ice dragon(s).

Hardhome beyond the Wall got destroyed as suddenly as Valyria, and ash was flying in the air and there were flames. People who sailed to the ruins of Hardhome said they heard unhuman voices from the caves. There can be missing dragons, so may one or more went to Hardhome, destroyed it and started to live in the caves. Later the dragon living there died and as we know the deads like to walk beyond the Wall. Also Bloodraven telling Bran that he'll fly is not ordinary, I mean that I don't think Bran will fly only by warging ravens, but he will warg a dead dragon or wake up and warg a real ice dragon.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Jon Snow is the Ice Dragon...he will be 'woken' in the crypts of Winterfell when he finds the marriage cloaks used by Rhaegar & Lyanna in her tomb...along with Rhaegar's harp.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

The real Ice Dragon melted long ago...in a time when Old Nan was called Adara...the little girl from the story.

[Morgul-Blade]

Someone is going to blow the big horn that takes down the wall. There will be three Ice Dragons; one at Castle Black, one at Eastwatch, and the other at The Shadow Tower. The NW thinks they keep those open because of their locations, but it's been long forgotten the horrors buried there.

[joluoto2]

The interesting thing about The Ice Dragon being canon is that it certainly punch several holes in the "Valyrian blood needed to ride dragons" thing, since in that case we have people riding Fire Dragons long before the Valyrians. That is if the Ice Dragon is actually set in the past. It could also be set in the future of course. Perhaps during the next Long Night several thousands of years after ASoIaF.

[Ser Creighton]

I haven't read The Ice Dragon, but does this description match those dragons? There's a chance this could just be a reference to that.

But if they manage to take down and wightify Drogon, all bets are off.

Yes it seems a nod to the ice Dragon also 3 and 1 or 1 and 3. North and south, and of course that ends in water. Now while a nod to the Ice Dragon that does not mean it is not a clue about polarities vs. unity of opposites. I don't think it would be a bad idea to expand of JStars post.

I've had the same thought myself. In fact, TPatQ might provide a hint about this. Specifically when Daemon Targaryen and Aemond One-Eye battle over the Gods Eye. Daemon's dragon, Caraxes, is red like the Targaryen sigil. Yet, despite that sigil, red does not seem like a common color for dragons. The only other one that we know of is Meleys the Red Queen, the dragon of Princess Rhaenys, the Queen Who Never Was.

On the other side of the battle was Aemond Targaryen, who was known for, among other things, wearing a sapphire in the socket of his missing eye. Right away this reminded me of the Ice Dragon constellation. It contains a blue star that is either said to be the dragon's eye, or, the eye of the dragon rider. Aemond Targaryen was a dragon rider with a sapphire blue eye. An unlikely coincidence, I say. That means, in the battle over the Gods Eye between Daemon and Aemond Targaryen, GRRM showed us a red (=fire) dragon fighting the Ice Dragon constellation come-to-life, figuratively speaking.

Nice catch. Maybe it can be expanded upon a bit, Aemond One eye seems a direct connection to the Dragon Rider constellation. Like the Ice Dragon both end in water. Aemond was said to wear Night Black Armor. You also have the connection of the leaders of the Dance, male and female.

Also of note is the Gods, where the pact was signed between Man and Children. Is that of any significance? We have another One eyed Targ in the books as we speak. Though his eye is red, the inverse of the blue. Aemond lost his right eye Bloodraven his left. At least in the pictures I have seen. Interesting enough Bloodraven is of course with the children, but part of a tree, in fact you might say he is the tree and the tree is described as being armored in ice. Not sure what it all means, but it could be fun to extrapolate on.

If this was just a nod to the Ice Dragon, a nice little read, why would Martin do it repeatedly unless there was some significance. If the way I look at history is correct, that it repeats with an inverse or something close enough to it. It's almost as if his history is repeating like something is trying to happen and it's been getting close but not just right. Is it trying to get to the ultimate form of the unity of opposites or total destruction by opposing forces? Either way I have and will suggested it will end with water, which is the natural unity of fire and ice. That said how it gets there and what is left is a different matter.

ETA. Jon I just also wanted to note the significance of the river lands and the Trident again. No just in tPatQ, but there are hints of a battle of Ice and fire in the river land along the trident. The trident of course we have discussed not just for the colors but 3 becomes 1. Dany' comment that this is how it is suppose to be also rings to polarities vs. unity of opposition, as even in that vision it ends in water.

[D150]

If you've read your Asimov you realize that "opposites" don't always have to be what you think they are. The opposite of Terminus was Trantor. The Heart of winter does not have to be some Pole.

I just found out about the Ice Dragon story. Definitely believe they are real now. Don't know how GRRM is going to fit all this into 2 books.

[greenseer1109]

The interesting thing about The Ice Dragon being canon is that it certainly punch several holes in the "Valyrian blood needed to ride dragons" thing, since in that case we have people riding Fire Dragons long before the Valyrians. That is if the Ice Dragon is actually set in the past. It could also be set in the future of course. Perhaps during the next Long Night several thousands of years after ASoIaF.

This may actually be the case. Wasn't there a reference to the origin of the crossroads inn in the books and then it was also mentioned in the ice dragon short story. If this is in fact the same inn, it would only make sense the story is occurring after ASOIAF.

[Ser Muradin the Small]

It is mentioned that Ice dragons supposedly have wings that are so transparent that the moon and stars can be seen through them. And they melt after their death/ Which got me thinking, are they really a race of different type dragons? Or are they just wingless"wight" dragons, made when the some Valyrian dragon lord was exploring the northern lands, got taken down by the Others, and then reanimated? SInce reanimated men can move, why can't reanimated dragons fly?

Of course, this is purely speculative and quite on the brink of crackpot, as they might just turn out to be myths....

[Ser Creighton]

If you've read your Asimov you realize that "opposites" don't always have to be what you think they are. The opposite of Terminus was Trantor. The Heart of winter does not have to be some Pole.

I just found out about the Ice Dragon story. Definitely believe they are real now. Don't know how GRRM is going to fit all this into 2 books.

Was not really going that far into science fiction, but rather philosophy Heraclitus and Anaximander to be exact. Anaximander of course for his use of elements. It is called a Song of Ice and fire not Terminus vs. Trantor. While the name has many meanings of course it is but are I chose to explore. Also Martins own words relate them as opposite, fire is love and passion and such and Ice is hate and bitterness. I don't have the exact quote but many people here know it. I did write a theory on it siting several examples between Dany and Jon having both literal and symbolic inverse parallels. It's not perfect but the broad strokes exist, and it seems to be a common theme in the books and ties into the cyclical themes of both history repeating itself and the characters themselves doing this always the inverse. It also partly ties into Quaithe telling Dany about going north and south and all that. Don't want to write the whole speech down, sorry.

Something else to consider, and most of the opposition I got stems from people not wanting to be Ice. Although my thoughts on it are always symbolic and people always translate it to him being literal ice and getting upset. "He's not going to be a Wight or an Other!" More like how Dany isn't fire but closely tied to it's symbolism. So looking at that, I wonder, what would happen to Jon if he warged an Ice Dragon. Much the way Dany craves the cold and is drawn to blue to an extent. Would Jon crave warmth? Or you can say Bran or Bloodraven, whoever. It's not so much about him being a literal this or that, just symbolism. Now we know that skinchangers can take on some of the properties of the animals they merge with. Not really physical although perhaps a bit a shaggy warg, things like that, but rather the aggressive nature of a wolf, certain desires to hunt and kill. Perhaps an ice dragon seeks to eliminate fire. Or maybe they have a natural hate for their counterparts. I am sure you get the broad strokes of what I am saying. You could end up with 2 forces that are a little unstable, to much or to much ice is not a good thing.

There is also a symbolic nature to water in the books that I wrote about, which is a classical symbol for life and cleansing. A woman's water, the womb of the world, bathing, Nymeria. There is also a symbolic nature to the stagnation of life in the books, Dany often described as the Mother, can't have kids. Jon is in an order that does not allow. Trios with the dead bodies in it's mouth, Trios is a classical symbol of rebirth and the washing away of sins. Mythology of course, but it's all death right now.

Blackfyre and Targ, the inverse sigil, constantly in opposition, and chances are you need not look much farther than Aegon to see it happening again. I kind of go into this whole male female aspect, I don't want to bother you with it. Both human but the genders inverse, that's kind the basics of it, parallels with symbolic or literal polarities that are constantly being drawn together.

ETA. If love and hate can mate, then ice can burn fire. Drink from the cup of ice, drink from the cup of fire. Pretty much anything significant that has come out of the Reeds mouths hint at both the polarities and unity. Why can't it be both love and hate. People pick sides, I choose the big picture, life all of it good and bad, and that's really what you need. Fire and Ice, hot and cold, love and hate, night and day, Dawn and Dusk, east and west, north and south.

[J. Stargaryen]

Nice catch. Maybe it can be expanded upon a bit, Aemond One eye seems a direct connection to the Dragon Rider constellation. Like the Ice Dragon both end in water. Aemond was said to wear Night Black Armor. You also have the connection of the leaders of the Dance, male and female.

Also of note is the Gods, where the pact was signed between Man and Children. Is that of any significance? We have another One eyed Targ in the books as we speak. Though his eye is red, the inverse of the blue. Aemond lost his right eye Bloodraven his left. At least in the pictures I have seen. Interesting enough Bloodraven is of course with the children, but part of a tree, in fact you might say he is the tree and the tree is described as being armored in ice. Not sure what it all means, but it could be fun to extrapolate on.

If this was just a nod to the Ice Dragon, a nice little read, why would Martin do it repeatedly unless there was some significance. If the way I look at history is correct, that it repeats with an inverse or something close enough to it. It's almost as if his history is repeating like something is trying to happen and it's been getting close but not just right. Is it trying to get to the ultimate form of the unity of opposites or total destruction by opposing forces? Either way I have and will suggested it will end with water, which is the natural unity of fire and ice. That said how it gets there and what is left is a different matter.

I don't think that the location of the battle was a coincidence either. First Harrenhal, then the Gods Eye. Daemon marking the weirwood tree thirteen times. One for each day he waited for Aemond. All of that stuff is likely to be significant. Also, and I don't think I mentioned this any of the other times I posted about Aemond = Ice Dragon imagery, is it gives us a red, blue and green color grouping. The Gods Eye is home to the Isle of Faces, which is home to the green men.

ETA. Jon I just also wanted to note the significance of the river lands and the Trident again. No just in tPatQ, but there are hints of a battle of Ice and fire in the river land along the trident. The trident of course we have discussed not just for the colors but 3 becomes 1. Dany' comment that this is how it is suppose to be also rings to polarities vs. unity of opposition, as even in that vision it ends in water.

I'm guessing the major battle will happen at the Blue Fork. The other two forks have already been used by GRRM as locales for major political events: Torrhen Stark bent the knee to Aegon at the Red Fork, and Robert slew Rhaegar at the Green Fork.

I've speculated that the Trident represents the past, present, and future dynasties of Westeros. But, it could (also) represent the three heads of the dragon, especially if Tyrion is one of them. Since the color green is pretty strongly associated with usurpers, and (by extension) the Baratheon-Lannister dynasty. Robert is called the Usurper literally dozens of times in the books, mostly by Dany, though he acknowledges that some in the 7K still call him that. And of course the Lannisters quite literally stole the throne. Dany would be represented by the red, as she is a noted "true Targaryen." Jon by the blue. The hidden, northern dragon, also symbolized by the blue rose. Then again, there is a pretty strong connection, via the Ice Dragon constellation, with the color blue.

[Ser Coffee The Bold]

While reading the world book, I did not see any evidence affirming that ice dragons exist... The maester isn't speaking of confirmed sightings... just sightings by sailors and storytellers from far off in the frozen sea... and then further explaining why evidence of such beasts is scarce... I can see why wild speculation is popping up, and they could prove useful to GRRM as a plot device, but I think there's all too much excitement about this kind of thing that the maesters of the citadel know nothing about...

They'll talk like the Others don't exist except as haunts in imagination, but that ice dragons may exist... but wait!

We've seen the mythical Others through POVs... yet no ice dragons... WE know things the maesters don't... lets not confuse what we really know with what we really don't.

I'm not arguing that they can't exist, but merely pointing out the fallibility of our source which is plainly obvious

[Senatus]

Ice dragons certainly have me interested.. I have to read "The Ice Dragon" now.

Anyway, on GRRM's own website it does state the following.

The Ice Dragon marks the highly anticipated children’s book debut of George R.R. Martin, the award-winning author of the New York Times best-selling series A Song of Ice and Fire and is set in the same world. Illustrated with lush, exquisitely detailed pencil drawings by acclaimed artist Yvonne Gilbert, The Ice Dragon is an unforgettable tale of courage, love, and sacrifice by one of the most honored fantasists of all time.

It does seem to be set in the same universe in which case there would be little doubt that Ice Dragons have (or will) at some point existed.

[SevasTra82]

Just to keep things in perspective here....

"The Ice Dragon" was written in 1979, over a decade before George RR Martin even started to create ASOIAF. I'm not sure how it can be "set in the same world", considering Westeros wasn't even created or design for another dozen years. IMO, publishers and reviewers are simply trying to sell books by making any connection to "A Game of Thrones" that they can.

Now, is it possible Westeros was created based ON "The Ice Dragon"? Sure.

Lets just think logically about it. I highly doubt GRRM would make a direct connection between a book intended for 8-10 year old children and a series of books filled with rape, murder, and savagery.

I know its fun to theorize things, but lets be careful before we start connecting dots that don't need to be connected.

Now, I'm sure GRRM could could find a way to shoe-horn and write "The Ice Dragon" into ASOIAF (like an old childrens tale Old Nan used to read?), but based on the timeline of things, I would assume "The Ice Dragon" is unrelated.

[RumHam]

Lets just think logically about it. I highly doubt GRRM would make a direct connection between a book intended for 8-10 year old children and a series of books filled with rape, murder, and savagery.

I haven't read it, but apparently someone was raped in the original printing of The Ice Dragon.

[J. Stargaryen]

I haven't read it, but apparently someone was raped in the original printing of The Ice Dragon.

Yes. I was surprised, too, since I had heard it was a children's story. But then I read he changed up some things to make it more suitable for children. I'm guessing that was one of them. ;)