Sansa to redeem Lady Stoneheart?

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

Ya I don't see how what she is doing could be called justice. LS acts out of vengeance first and foremost, and justice is happenstance if somebody that actually deserves it gets caught. Would Catelyn have hanged the young Lannisters that Rickard Karstark had killed for his vengeance? I think this is even worse than that instance as at least they were actual known participants in the war.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Nah.

More satisfying if Arya kills her. "The gift of mercy."

[Bright Blue Eyes]

So she's the true ruler of the North and Riverlands, ok. :rolleyes:

Nah. For the North, the regent. Not the ruler. Similar for the Riverlands, a caretaker until Edmure is freed.

No, it doesn't seem to be a norm in Westerosi society. Starks, Lannisters, Tyrells, Stannis etc. all take prisoners, and usually either keep them for an exchange or offer them pardon in exchenge for their support. The only ones who outright murder them are Gregor and Vargo, which is not the company LS should be aspiring at.

Stannis put the common men to the sword. Same as Lannisters and Tyrells. Even the Starks.

Not being able to buy nobles out of their crimes, that's not the norm. And what I call just.

So all it takes to randomly execute anyone you don't happen to like is a dubious claim to an illegitimate state? Yeah, that's a parody-- I mean paragon of justice there. :rolleyes:

Interesting. Do you condemn Robb Stark for ruling and judging?

Or Jaime Lannister in Feast, if you wish to play that angle? Or Stannis? Or Dany?

[bloodofwinterfell]

I don't condemn Lady Stoneheart for what she is doing because it's understandable from her point of view. I think Stoneheart IS different from Catelyn - and a natural result of the Red Wedding - but there is some sense to it. Brienne does look guilty, unfortunately, so I don't think it was irrational of Catelyn to see it that way.

However, I'm not exactly thrilled that Lady Stoneheart exists. While I love the ASOS epilogue and her role in the series from a literary point of view, as a fan of Catelyn she makes me sad. Catelyn was the voice of reason when she was alive and the only character who understood the futility of vengeance, a big theme in the books. But now that has been robbed from her and she is Lady Stoneheart, the creature most driven by vengeance.

I just hope she finds out that her children are alive so she can be at peace, finally. (And I hope this happens without any of her children encountering her - I think that would be traumatic both ways, but this is GRRM so it probably will happen.)

[Ramsay Gimp]

Now hold on Bright Blue Eyes. I agree that Lady Stoneheart's vendetta is generally a just one and she isn't some demonic kill-crazy monster or villain like some posters claim. But surely you don't think that killing Brienne and Pod would have actually been just, given everything we know? It's easy to see why Catelyn and the Brotherhood believed it was (and there was substantial evidence so I don't blame them) but that's a different question. Neither Brienne nor Pod truly deserve to hang

[Alistair Stark]

The Brotherhood has certainly become darker, true. Under Stoneheart they are much more cynical and ruthless than they were under Beric, but it's just not true to say that they kill indiscriminately or target the innocent. If we heard that they were robbing the smallfolk or something than it would be different

Well the High Sparrow revealed that the Saltpans was raided heavily and the Hound (the helmet worn by a member of the BwB) raped a young girl. They disguise themselves as the Hound to blame him for their own heinous crimes.

So yeah. They target the innocent.

[LordStoneheart]

What LS is doing is not always justice. Just look at Thoros, who remembers how they once dealt justice under different leadership.

Thoros is probably one of the worst examples of justice in the entire series. He doesn't miss justice. He misses Beric and the group convincing themselves that they are about justice.

[LordStoneheart]

Now hold on Bright Blue Eyes. I agree that Lady Stoneheart's vendetta is generally a just one and she isn't some demonic kill-crazy monster or villain like some posters claim. But surely you don't think that killing Brienne and Pod would have actually been just, given everything we know? It's easy to see why Catelyn and the Brotherhood believed it was (and there was substantial evidence so I don't blame them) but that's a different question. Neither Brienne nor Pod truly deserve to hang

I'm not BBE, but I have a response for you.

It is definitely not 'just' that Brienne should hang. (Hunt can go fuck himself for all I care, honestly.) It is obviously a bad thing since we as the readers know for a fact that Brienne is trying to keep true to her oath. But the evidence is what my Lady has to go by. And she does not immediately see these things and decide to kill Brienne. The group tells Brienne that she looks quite like a Lannister supporter now and give her a chance to prove her words by taking the sword. She refuses because, bless her naive little heart, she thinks Jaime has changed into a different man. She defends Jaime and then refuses an order from the person she's trying to convince she is still in service of, and then is hanged. It's quite unfortunate but a lot of it is Brienne's own doing. If she could take a step back from her Jaime crush, she might have been more pragmatic in this situation, but alas, that is not what happened. (I love Brienne btw, so this isn't coming from an anti-Brienne stance, mind you.)

[Knight Of Winter]

Thoros is probably one of the worst examples of justice in the entire series. He doesn't miss justice. He misses Beric and the group convincing themselves that they are about justice.

It's the other was around, I think. Under Beric Thoros didn't need convincing. Under LS, he tried convincing himself and failed.

It's doubtful how much can robnihoodesque group of vigilantes be about morality and justice, but they were definitely trying under Beric. With LS taking the wheel, they've become revenge association against everyone remotely associated with Lannisters and their mother.

I'm not BBE, but I have a response for you.

It is definitely not 'just' that Brienne should hang. (Hunt can go fuck himself for all I care, honestly.) It is obviously a bad thing since we as the readers know for a fact that Brienne is trying to keep true to her oath. But the evidence is what my Lady has to go by. And she does not immediately see these things and decide to kill Brienne. The group tells Brienne that she looks quite like a Lannister supporter now and give her a chance to prove her words by taking the sword. She refuses because, bless her naive little heart, she thinks Jaime has changed into a different man. She defends Jaime and then refuses an order from the person she's trying to convince she is still in service of, and then is hanged. It's quite unfortunate but a lot of it is Brienne's own doing. If she could take a step back from her Jaime crush, she might have been more pragmatic in this situation, but alas, that is not what happened. (I love Brienne btw, so this isn't coming from an anti-Brienne stance, mind you.)

It's not just about Brienne. LS had sufficent evidence to think her guilty, although I think she's overly hasty to condemn her. Pre-death Cat would at least find strange that Brienne, probably the most loyal character in the series, would switch sides so easily and question her. It's that she wantonly and senselessly hangs two other characters whose only crime was accompanying Brienne and fighting for the wrong side. Again, those two were not a threat and were not guilty of any actual crimes; and killing them will achieve nothing.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Now hold on Bright Blue Eyes. I agree that Lady Stoneheart's vendetta is generally a just one and she isn't some demonic kill-crazy monster or villain like some posters claim. But surely you don't think that killing Brienne and Pod would have actually been just, given everything we know? It's easy to see why Catelyn and the Brotherhood believed it was (and there was substantial evidence so I don't blame them) but that's a different question. Neither Brienne nor Pod truly deserve to hang

That's a difficult question. Because personally, I despise the death penalty, like the notion of juvenile courts in contrast to adult ones and am a bit uncomfortable with LS lacking information.

On the other hand, Brienne definitely committed treason. She is guilty in two cases. And can be convinced in a lot more cases. Even Pod can be convinced. Them being treated just the same as commoners is what I call just: "All are equal before the law." That's my focus.

Well the High Sparrow revealed that the Saltpans was raided heavily and the Hound (the helmet worn by a member of the BwB) raped a young girl. They disguise themselves as the Hound to blame him for their own heinous crimes.

So yeah. They target the innocent.

Nope. That was Rorge. Who was hunted down and punished by the BWB. Lem Lemoncloak took the helmet afterwards.

[Knight Of Winter]

On the other hand, Brienne definitely committed treason. She is guilty in two cases. And can be convinced in a lot more cases. Even Pod can be convinced. Them being treated just the same as commoners is what I call just: "All are equal before the law." That's my focus.

Yes, they should not have been hanged - whether they're nobleborn or commoners. That's both equal treatment and just. Hanging both commoners and nobles is just non-discriminatory injustice.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

What about Arya?

They both have revenge quests, so what if Arya meets LS, and sees what revenge has done to her mother?

But I do like the idea that LS' redemption comes from been reunited with her daughters, since that was what she always wanted.

What has it done to her mother? It wasn't revenge that made her the way she is now.

Vengeance would be a better word by the way.

Yes, they should not have been hanged - whether they're nobleborn or commoners. That's both equal treatment and just. Hanging both commoners and nobles is just non-discriminatory injustice.

Is that about the death penalty or about any duly administered punishment?

[Knight Of Winter]

Is that about the death penalty or about any duly administered punishment?

It's about specific instance of LS hanging Brienne, Pod and Hyle where it was unjust; regardless of their birth.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It's about specific instance of LS hanging Brienne, Pod and Hyle where it was unjust; regardless of their birth.

Given the information that court had, it was entirely justified. If you accept the death penalty.

[Lord Lannister]

Given the information that court had, it was entirely justified. If you accept the death penalty.

It wasn't a court. None of her victims even got a farce of a trial like Tyrion did in the Vale and KL. It was a band of vigilantes out to kill anyone even vaguely associated with those they don't like. If you want to defend LS and try and divert attention from the fact she's a cold blooded murderer with talks of trials, somehow being a regent, talks of death penalty and duly administered punishment that's fine, but all that is, is a smokescreen trying to divert attention away from the issue. LS isn't about justice, she's about vengeance to her very core.

[Cas Stark]

It wasn't a court. None of her victims even got a farce of a trial like Tyrion did in the Vale and KL. It was a band of vigilantes out to kill anyone even vaguely associated with those they don't like. If you want to defend LS and try and divert attention from the fact she's a cold blooded murderer with talks of trials, somehow being a regent, talks of death penalty and duly administered punishment that's fine, but all that is, is a smokescreen trying to divert attention away from the issue. LS isn't about justice, she's about vengeance to her very core.

yes they did. more trial than most in westeros.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It wasn't a court. None of her victims even got a farce of a trial like Tyrion did in the Vale and KL. It was a band of vigilantes out to kill anyone even vaguely associated with those they don't like. If you want to defend LS and try and divert attention from the fact she's a cold blooded murderer with talks of trials, somehow being a regent, talks of death penalty and duly administered punishment that's fine, but all that is, is a smokescreen trying to divert attention away from the issue. LS isn't about justice, she's about vengeance to her very core.

More of a court than Robb Stark trying Lord Karstark. More of a court than Ned Stark trying the Mountain. More of a court than Ned Stark trying Gared.

The difference? We witness it from the (guilty) accused PoV!

By the way, if LS wasn't about justice, why do they let Septon Merribald go or hunt down the Bloody Mummers? Or even hold trials in the first place? Or sponsoring orphanages?

[Knight Of Winter]

The difference? We witness it from the (guilty) accused PoV!

The difference is how all the men you listed committed actual crimes: Gared deserted NW, Karstartk killed children POV (actually, that's exactly what LS is also doing) while we all know what Mountain did.

As for other thing, BWB hasn't completely lost its pro-smallfolk agenda (which is admirable), but it's become heavily muddled with vengeance-against-Lannister idea, even in the cases where parties involved are guilty of no crime (like Pod).

[Bright Blue Eyes]

So did Brienne. Treason, refusing orders. So did Hyle Hunt. Killing PoWs. So did Pod, to a certain extent. Aiding and abetting.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't think Arya killing her makes much sense for multiple reasons.

First of all she wanted to have a parent raised from the dead. She asked if a man without a head could be revived. So the notion she would find her a abomination is no guarantee.

Second she has to start killing people who matter. So far LS is killing irrelevant Freys and I'm sure Jamie and Brienne will somehow get away from her. So she kills LS and? So what...

& LS is doing what Arya wants. She is killing Freys so Arya would only be going against something she wants. Freys dead.

Finally I see no reason why it should have the desired effect that some have of her seeing that LS is terrible and wanting to redeem herself. Based on what the Ghost of High Heart told us about Arya she's not going to stop killing LS or no. There are other reasons to think she might not stop killing. Plus, wolves are at their predatory height during winter and it's not like coming across Nymeria and being linked with her would make her less murderous.

ETA:Oh, and Arya has that whole gift of mercy thing in her arc but if you evaluate her behavior it's not actually merciful or else she would have spared those people not killed them. Killing to end suffering is not her motivation.