Whats up with House Tully?

[Crippledtank]

Agreed I can't stand cat or Lysa (both books and show)

I don't care what drives them, I don't care about their stupid petty boyfriend shit. Cat manipulates/betrays/belittles Rob during a war.

I know this is sexist but in the contexts of ASOIAF she was totally out of place. She just waltz in and decides she's a better military commander than her son (who would have been groomed to be lord/waeden of the north) like.... The fuck

I wanted to throw my book at GRRMs face whenever she disagrees leaving Robs war camp to go home or seagaurd. Cat you weren't wanted it's simple.

the nail in the coffin for me is she is the one character that defies death (seriously the death of catelyn stark made the RW totes worth it for me) then GRRM just goes lol and she back :,( murdering poor innocent freys because she has nothing better to do.

[barristan-b]

I agree with the OP about House Tully.

They have always just rubbed me the wrong way. They really have a misplaced smugness and a sense of what they call duty and honor that makes them unbearably stupid at times.

[Red Tiger]

I agree with the OP about House Tully.

They have always just rubbed me the wrong way. They really have a misplaced smugness and a sense of what they call duty and honor that makes them unbearably stupid at times.

That's kinda the problem with having things like honor and duty as your personal code, they're very vague and inconsistent virtues to live by.

I mean if you are dutiful and your king is an utter monster, how can you call yourself honorable? Also, what constitutes as honorable to begin with?

[HexMachina]

Agreed I can't stand cat or Lysa (both books and show)

I don't care what drives them, I don't care about their stupid petty boyfriend shit. Cat manipulates/betrays/belittles Rob during a war.

I know this is sexist but in the contexts of ASOIAF she was totally out of place. She just waltz in and decides she's a better military commander than her son (who would have been groomed to be lord/waeden of the north) like.... The fuck

I wanted to throw my book at GRRMs face whenever she disagrees leaving Robs war camp to go home or seagaurd. Cat you weren't wanted it's simple.

the nail in the coffin for me is she is the one character that defies death (seriously the death of catelyn stark made the RW totes worth it for me) then GRRM just goes lol and she back :,( murdering poor innocent freys because she has nothing better to do.

This would bother me a lot more if Robb and the other Northern Lords weren't all such a stubborn dunderheads, and if Cat actually gave bad advice all the time.

And :lol: at the innocent Freys. All of the Freys she hanged were participants (active participants) In The Red Wedding. Except Jinglebell, which I count separately to the post-RW killings

[hear me bore]

This house produced the sisters of destruction. At least Edmure and Blackfish are cool.

[barristan-b]

That's kinda the problem with having things like honor and duty as your personal code, they're very vague and inconsistent virtues to live by.

I mean if you are dutiful and your king is an utter monster, how can you call yourself honorable? Also, what constitutes as honorable to begin with?

Precisely. (Hey, my quote notifications are finally working!)

[NorthGirl]

I will preface this by saying that my feelings on the Tullys are completely the result of subjective information. I just don't like the "vibe" of the entire family. Certain things in their interactions with each other and others just rub me the wrong way and that's likely to never change. None of this is fact so much as how I feel about their actions and personalities. I realise that a lot of people feel differently, this is not me arguing why I am "right", this is me rambling trying to figure out why this family as a whole makes me grimace.

I'm not gonna lie, I also don't hold much love for Tullys in my heart and there is literally no particular reason why, just the vibe, I guess? While I appreciated Edmure's decision to help his subjects, most of the time we interacted with him, I wanted to punch him and I genuinely don't know why. Hoster Tully doesn't make me feel negatively but not positively either because Cat was acting male heir for the longest time and her patriarchal notions are so face palm-y and my guess is that came from him. The Lysa situation also doesn't help. I feel sorry for Lysa because I think she suffered from post partem psychosis or some other pregnancy complications related disorder but it doesn't really sound like I would've liked her that much before her break from reality. Blackfish kind of leaves me indifferent and I did side-eye him when he acted like Jon was the devil's span because it just seemed so ridiculous. Like, ok Cat didn't like him for being born, that's not a good reason to assume he's a traitor or something. He's been stuck at a 700ft structure of solid ice for the past two years (he of course doesn't know about Jon's trek beyond the Wall) so what shenanigans is he accusing an unsuspecting 16 year old of now? *Sigh* I know people say it's because he thinks Jon is in cahoots with the Lannisters and yet it doesn't really make much sense, Ned was his only parent, no way Jon works with them. Unless it was an act, but I never thought so.

The pièce de résistance: Cat. I have too many problems with her. Great character, not my type of person. Don't like the constant feeling of superiority I get from her POV. Maybe I'm just imagining it or the Show Cat had conditioned me or something but when I read her encounter with Brienne, it felt more like pity towards an infirm than fondness for someone who represents traits Cat admires. But that could totally be me reading her differently, in fact I think the point of this character is that people will feel very differently depending where they're coming from.

My biggest problem is her releasing Jaime, hear me out, it's probably not what you think. I don't care that it was a desperately bad political move when considering the bannermen's feelings on the matter. I care that she acts like she sees no way that it could go wrong the entire time she thinks back on it, she acts like Edmure is insane for sending a search party out... I was like "well what did you think was going to happen?" And that question pretty much sums up my thoughts on that plan. The RL are a war torn zone. How quickly does she think Brienne and Jaime will get to KL? How does she know he won't get captured by other Northmen (like he did)? Who did she think they would listen to? When she hears Tywin got KL secured, she doesn't think "oh now, it will be him making the decision not Tyrion. That might not good for me?"

Also she's trusting the man she suspected of attempting to kill her son and then kidnapped and almost got killed? She never considered the Kartstark would cause troubles once she (as far as they were concerned) screwed them over? That's what I don't understand about that decision, it's not like she weighed her options and thought it was worth it. She just ignored the very possible ramifications that would get in the way of having her daughter back safely. Screw politics, she did not consider how much it could affect Sansa. That's what pissed me off, just like when she kidnapped/ brought Tyrion to justice (under whose authority she considered that was justice, I don't freaking know), it was about her feeling better because she did something rather than making sure that what she's doing actually ups the chances of success for her children. I don't like that she's wailing about how she's a mother protecting her children and in both situations she acted rashly to feel pro-active, it caused bigger problems for her kids. The fact that she learned zilch from her first harebrained scheme is a big turn off for me.

Yes, I know there are reasons: in both cases, she was suffering from grief over the near or complete loss of her child(ren) but when it happens more than once especially after the disastrous consequences of her first "slip up" on the remaining kids she does have, it establishes something unpleasant about the character. I can't imagine her pain but what I can see is the damage on the people she's supposed to protect.

The worst is, she never expresses doubts over her actions. Nope, she blames Tyrion, Brienne, etc. and no introspection whatsoever. She herself sees that it was difficult to navigate the RL on her way to the Twins and yet doesn't consider two fugitives, one of which is a prisoner might have a problem moving quickly? I don't like cognitive dissonance and most of her actions after her trip to KL reek of it. Saying "I'm looking out for my kids" while cooking up some half-assed plan that could result of her daughter being in more danger if things go awry is simply ignoring the reality if the situation, I just couldn't sympathise.

I genuinely don't understand any of her reasoning after releasing Jaime. And she liked to play the victim "Oh, I am the poor old woman the young men find boring to have around...boohoo". No Cat, you're the mother of the king who put her son in a difficult position after spitting in the face of his bannermen. It's like she was disconnected from reality and could never look at it from another person's perspective, it was jarring to read and frankly, the more it went on, the less I liked her.

All in all, the biggest problem with her is that it didn't feel like there was any growth, she didn't learn from her experiences, she just doubled down on her stubborn ideas. When things aren't the way she likes them, she gets upset and then acts like it doesn't make sense for people to act like it's established they would act.

Ex: asking Ned multiple times to send Jon away, as if Ned is going to wake up one day and not feel the same way about his son. It's like periodically asking "still want your son around?" What is the point of that? One try, sure. Multiple? What's the point of potentially pissing Ned off.

Ex: Bringing a prisoner Tyrion to the Eyrie, accusing him of crimes and not expecting her panicked and spooked sister who believes her husband was murdered by Lannisters to want to try and kill him. Really?

Ex: Not thinking Edmure would send out a search party after she released a prisoner without Robb's or his consent.

To the character's credit, I think it's wonderful that depending on a person's perspective or experiences, they take away something completely different from her POVs and read her differently. I don't know why I read her as haughty and condescending but maybe if I read her chapters again, I will change my mind...Yeah, no, that's a lie.

[Jak Scaletongue]

I will preface this by saying that my feelings on the Tullys are completely the result of subjective information. I just don't like the "vibe" of the entire family. Certain things in their interactions with each other and others just rub me the wrong way and that's likely to never change. None of this is fact so much as how I feel about their actions and personalities. I realise that a lot of people feel differently, this is not me arguing why I am "right", this is me rambling trying to figure out why this family as a whole makes me grimace.

I'm not gonna lie, I also don't hold much love for Tullys in my heart and there is literally no particular reason why, just the vibe, I guess? While I appreciated Edmure's decision to help his subjects, most of the time we interacted with him, I wanted to punch him and I genuinely don't know why. Hoster Tully doesn't make me feel negatively but not positively either because Cat was acting male heir for the longest time and her patriarchal notions are so face palm-y and my guess is that came from him. The Lysa situation also doesn't help. I feel sorry for Lysa because I think she suffered from post partem psychosis or some other pregnancy complications related disorder but it doesn't really sound like I would've liked her that much before her break from reality. Blackfish kind of leaves me indifferent and I did side-eye him when he acted like Jon was the devil's span because it just seemed so ridiculous. Like, ok Cat didn't like him for being born, that's not a good reason to assume he's a traitor or something. He's been stuck at a 700ft structure of solid ice for the past two years (he of course doesn't know about Jon's trek beyond the Wall) so what shenanigans is he accusing an unsuspecting 16 year old of now? *Sigh* I know people say it's because he thinks Jon is in cahoots with the Lannisters and yet it doesn't really make much sense, Ned was his only parent, no way Jon works with them. Unless it was an act, but I never thought so.

The pièce de résistance: Cat. I have too many problems with her. Great character, not my type of person. Don't like the constant feeling of superiority I get from her POV. Maybe I'm just imagining it or the Show Cat had conditioned me or something but when I read her encounter with Brienne, it felt more like pity towards an infirm than fondness for someone who represents traits Cat admires. But that could totally be me reading her differently, in fact I think the point of this character is that people will feel very differently depending where they're coming from.

My biggest problem is her releasing Jaime, hear me out, it's probably not what you think. I don't care that it was a desperately bad political move when considering the bannermen's feelings on the matter. I care that she acts like she sees no way that it could go wrong the entire time she thinks back on it, she acts like Edmure is insane for sending a search party out... I was like "well what did you think was going to happen?" And that question pretty much sums up my thoughts on that plan. The RL are a war torn zone. How quickly does she think Brienne and Jaime will get to KL? How does she know he won't get captured by other Northmen (like he did)? Who did she think they would listen to? When she hears Tywin got KL secured, she doesn't think "oh now, it will be him making the decision not Tyrion. That might not good for me?"

Also she's trusting the man she suspected of attempting to kill her son and then kidnapped and almost got killed? She never considered the Kartstark would cause troubles once she (as far as they were concerned) screwed them over? That's what I don't understand about that decision, it's not like she weighed her options and thought it was worth it. She just ignored the very possible ramifications that would get in the way of having her daughter back safely. Screw politics, she did not consider how much it could affect Sansa. That's what pissed me off, just like when she kidnapped/ brought Tyrion to justice (under whose authority she considered that was justice, I don't freaking know), it was about her feeling better because she did something rather than making sure that what she's doing actually ups the chances of success for her children. I don't like that she's wailing about how she's a mother protecting her children and in both situations she acted rashly to feel pro-active, it caused bigger problems for her kids. The fact that she learned zilch from her first harebrained scheme is a big turn off for me.

Yes, I know there are reasons: in both cases, she was suffering from grief over the near or complete loss of her child(ren) but when it happens more than once especially after the disastrous consequences of her first "slip up" on the remaining kids she does have, it establishes something unpleasant about the character. I can't imagine her pain but what I can see is the damage on the people she's supposed to protect.

The worst is, she never expresses doubts over her actions. Nope, she blames Tyrion, Brienne, etc. and no introspection whatsoever. She herself sees that it was difficult to navigate the RL on her way to the Twins and yet doesn't consider two fugitives, one of which is a prisoner might have a problem moving quickly? I don't like cognitive dissonance and most of her actions after her trip to KL reek of it. Saying "I'm looking out for my kids" while cooking up some half-assed plan that could result of her daughter being in more danger if things go awry is simply ignoring the reality if the situation, I just couldn't sympathise.

I genuinely don't understand any of her reasoning after releasing Jaime. And she liked to play the victim "Oh, I am the poor old woman the young men find boring to have around...boohoo". No Cat, you're the mother of the king who put her son in a difficult position after spitting in the face of his bannermen. It's like she was disconnected from reality and could never look at it from another person's perspective, it was jarring to read and frankly, the more it went on, the less I liked her.

All in all, the biggest problem with her is that it didn't feel like there was any growth, she didn't learn from her experiences, she just doubled down on her stubborn ideas. When things aren't the way she likes them, she gets upset and then acts like it doesn't make sense for people to act like it's established they would act.

Ex: asking Ned multiple times to send Jon away, as if Ned is going to wake up one day and not feel the same way about his son. It's like periodically asking "still want your son around?" What is the point of that? One try, sure. Multiple? What's the point of potentially pissing Ned off.

Ex: Bringing a prisoner Tyrion to the Eyrie, accusing him of crimes and not expecting her panicked and spooked sister who believes her husband was murdered by Lannisters to want to try and kill him. Really?

Ex: Not thinking Edmure would send out a search party after she released a prisoner without Robb's or his consent.

To the character's credit, I think it's wonderful that depending on a person's perspective or experiences, they take away something completely different from her POVs and read her differently. I don't know why I read her as haughty and condescending but maybe if I read her chapters again, I will change my mind...Yeah, no, that's a lie.

I appreciate this - well reasoned, no attacks, just simply pointing out her flaws *as you saw them* (that's the part that gets some people, I think - they didn't see it that way, so you must be "wrong"). You are welcome to your opinion, and welcome to ramble. Just because someone is presenting their own opinions doesn't mean that they are automatically trying to prove someone else's opinion as "wrong." Just like in real life - different characters cause different reactions in people. Just look at RL world leaders - they've got their hard core fans, their hard core haters and the indifferent (and varying shades in between). Others need to remember that an opinion is not cut and dry, they differ from person to person - if everyone here had the exact same opinion, we'd all be very, very bored. Cause it sometimes feels like some people are getting stomped on for simply having their own opinion (not always, but sometimes). Opinions are neither right nor wrong - though sometimes the facts the opinion is based on can be wrong. But how someone "feels" about a character isn't usually based on facts - if someone gives you a "creepy" vibe, there's probably a reason for it, even if their resume looks like they were sent by god. But just because you get a "creepy" vibe from so-and-so, doesn't mean your boss/co-worker/parent/child will - which is why it's important to keep an open mind when confronted with other people's opinions; maybe they noticed something you didn't (ex: "creepy" vibe).

[David Selig]

The worst is, she never expresses doubts over her actions. Nope, Nope, she blames Tyrion, Brienne, etc. and no introspection whatsoever.

This is factually incorrect. Very much so.

[Jak Scaletongue]

This is factually incorrect. Very much so.

Would you be so kind as to show us the facts that prove them incorrect?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Would you be so kind as to show us the facts that prove them incorrect?

She frequently expresses doubt and blames herself. After she talks to both Stannis and Renly and is unable to convince them to team up and focus on the Lannisters she blames herself.

I have failed Robb as I failed Ned, Catelyn thought. "My lord," she announced. "If you are set on battle, my purpose here is done. I ask your leave to return to Riverrun."

Edmure plans to attack the advancing Tywin, Cat thinking her brother a failure councils against it mentioning how he was defeated by Jaime in his only ever battle. When told that Bracken, Blackwood and Mallister all agree with him she doubts her own opinion.

"Be that as it may." She was suddenly weary. Perhaps she was wrong to oppose him. Perhaps it was a splendid plan, and her misgivings only a woman's fears."

After she has arrested Tyrion she begins to doubt her rash actions

"...and yet Tyrion betrayed no hint of fear. Could I be wrong? Catelyn wondered, not for the first time. Could he be innocent after all, of Bran and Jon Arryn and all the rest? And if he was, what did that make her? Six men had died to bring him here."

She realizes she has done wrong after she has let Jaime go.

"He had seen Lord Hoster's little Cat become a young woman, a great lord's lady, mother to a king. And now he has seen me become a traitor as well."

After Karstark kills the two Lannister hostages she takes responsibility for Robbs loss of the Karstarks

Lost by me. By me, may the gods forgive me. Catelyn did not need to be a soldier to grasp the trap Robb was in.

They are just some off the top of my head, I'm sure there were other times she has doubted her actions

[Jak Scaletongue]

Thanks! Catelyn's arc is one I haven't focused on, so some of those I hadn't particularly noticed. The Tyrion one definitely rang a bell, though!

I'm curious about other's opinions, but such definitive statements as the one I was responding to seem to discourage someone from having an opinion. If the facts influencing their opinion are incorrect, correct them (as you did) rather than stating they are wrong. Not everyone can remember everything, and the Catelyn chapters are often overlooked and under-read (something I'm guilty of). One or two examples would have sufficed, maybe they could have inserted it after stating the poster was factually incorrect.

[Bustard]

I won't dispute Edmure being "kind of stupid" but somehow that makes him even more endearing to me