[TWOIAF Spoilers] The Truth about Qarth

[AzureOwl]

One of the funniest revelations of the book was learning that all the airs the Qartheen put on of being a great and powerful culture were nothing more than overcompensating for their pitiful history.

Until now, we had been under the impression that Qarth used to be a great power and that their warlocks may have been a match for Old Valyria. But now we now that the ancient Qaathi people were bitch-slapped out of the Grasslands and forced to settle in the least desirable piece of real state west of the Bone Mountains, which then started to turn into a desert, and then all their cities save Qarth got wiped out by the Dothraki. :lmao:

As a matter of fact, the Qaathi were on their way to collapse when the Doom of Valyria and the Century of Blood saved their sorry asses and gave them the chance to get control of the Jade Gates and its trade, for no other reason that no one else was paying attention. Qarth’s wealth and glory is less than 400 years old.

It really puts all their cultural posturing in the novels an whole new light, doesn’t it?

[David C. Hunter]

One of the funniest revelations of the book was learning that all the airs the Qartheen put on of being a great and powerful culture were nothing more than overcompensating for their pitiful history.

Until now, we had been under the impression that Qarth used to be a great power and that their warlocks may have been a match for Old Valyria. But now we now that the ancient Qaathi people were bitch-slapped out of the Grasslands and forced to settle in the least desirable piece of real state east of the Bone Mountains, which then started to turn into a desert, and then all their cities save Qarth got wiped out by the Dothraki. :lmao:

As a matter of fact, the Qaathi were on their way to collapse when the Doom of Valyria and the Century of Blood saved their sorry asses and gave them the chance to get control of the Jade Gates and its trade, for no other reason that no one else was paying attention. Qarth’s wealth and glory is less than 400 years old.

It really puts all their cultural posturing in the novels an whole new light, doesn’t it?

That...is teh funniest thing I have ever heard. Talk abotu bs eh?? :D

[Ser Lepus]

Yeah. Qarth isn't that old or that special. They never were one of the great empires of the ancient world, just a culture that was pressed south by the Sarnori and later by the Dothraki, and lacking fertile land turned to trade and got very rich. Qarth is younger that Old Ghis, than Lorath, than all those cities in Sarnor and Yi Ti...etc.

Of course, the Qartheen themselves may not even know that. They have been eating their own propaganda for centuries, and may really believe themselves the greatest and oldest city/state/culture/civilization in the world.

[Dornishwoman's Husband]

I didn't find anything about Qarth in TWOIAF book. Is there anything about it in some chapter?

[Ser Lepus]

I didn't find anything about Qarth in TWOIAF book. Is there anything about it in some chapter?

Beyond the Sunset Kingdoms - Beyond the Free Cities - The Grasslands.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Their race is ancient, Qarth on the other hand... is indeed younger than most of the other cities of the world.

[Ser Lepus]

Their race is ancient

Not really. The Andals, the First Men, the Rhoynar, the Valyrians, the Ghiscarians, the Summer Islanders, the Ibbenese, the Sarnori, the Jhogos Nai, the Leng, the Ti Yi...etc., all existed as races thousands of years ago. The Qartheen aren't special.

[Yukle]

Until now, we had been under the impression that Qarth used to be a great power and that their warlocks may have been a match for Old Valyria. But now we now that the ancient Qaathi people were bitch-slapped out of the Grasslands and forced to settle in the least desirable piece of real state west of the Bone Mountains, which then started to turn into a desert, and then all their cities save Qarth got wiped out by the Dothraki. :lmao:

It also finally laid to rest a question that I've had about them for ages: how could they be a trade power given their remote location?

They are a costal city, certainly, but they're not a central location. A city that is central to many trade routes has a massive advantage over other trading powers. If people were to trade only with other Essos city-states, then Qarth is useless. It cannot be the hub of trade since it'd be much faster to trade goods directly to any other city before reaching Qarth. Slaver's Bay is fairly central in what is known of Essos and the Free Cities are the midpoint of trade routes between Westeros and Essos.

But if Qarth was able to reorganise itself effectively after the Valyrians and the Volantenes collapsed, and after the Rhoynar evacuated Essos, then it makes sense that Qarth could be such a trading juggernaut. They may not necessarily see most of the trade that they control, but they do wield influence over the ports of distant cities.

And, as it happens, their whole "history" of being the greatest city ever is nothing but garbage.

[Ser Lepus]

It also finally laid to rest a question that I've had about them for ages: how could they be a trade power given their remote location?

They are a costal city, certainly, but they're not a central location. A city that is central to many trade routes has a massive advantage over other trading powers. If people were to trade only with other Essos city-states, then Qarth is useless. It cannot be the hub of trade since it'd be much faster to trade goods directly to any other city before reaching Qarth. Slaver's Bay is fairly central in what is known of Essos and the Free Cities are the midpoint of trade routes between Westeros and Essos.

But if Qarth was able to reorganise itself effectively after the Valyrians and the Volantenes collapsed, and after the Rhoynar evacuated Essos, then it makes sense that Qarth could be such a trading juggernaut. They may not necessarily see most of the trade that they control, but they do wield influence over the ports of distant cities.

And, as it happens, their whole "history" of being the greatest city ever is nothing but garbage.

I think they owe their prosperity to their control of the Jade Gates, the chokepoint in between the Summer Sea and the Jade Sea.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Not really. The Andals, the First Men, the Rhoynar, the Valyrians, the Ghiscarians, the Summer Islanders, the Ibbenese, the Sarnori, the Jhogos Nai, the Leng, the Ti Yi...etc., all existed as races thousands of years ago. The Qartheen aren't special.

I never said they are the oldest and most special people of all. I just underlined that they are an ancient race, born around the Silver Sea ie Planetos' Cradle of Civilization.

[Dimples]

It also finally laid to rest a question that I've had about them for ages: how could they be a trade power given their remote location?

They are a costal city, certainly, but they're not a central location. A city that is central to many trade routes has a massive advantage over other trading powers. If people were to trade only with other Essos city-states, then Qarth is useless. It cannot be the hub of trade since it'd be much faster to trade goods directly to any other city before reaching Qarth. Slaver's Bay is fairly central in what is known of Essos and the Free Cities are the midpoint of trade routes between Westeros and Essos.

But if Qarth was able to reorganise itself effectively after the Valyrians and the Volantenes collapsed, and after the Rhoynar evacuated Essos, then it makes sense that Qarth could be such a trading juggernaut. They may not necessarily see most of the trade that they control, but they do wield influence over the ports of distant cities.

And, as it happens, their whole "history" of being the greatest city ever is nothing but garbage.

There's a lot of stuff east of Qarth, you know...

[Yukle]

There's a lot of stuff east of Qarth, you know...

Most of it isn't mapped, though, suggesting that there isn't a lot of contact between the peoples of eastern Essos and the rest of it. And they seem to trade with Slaver's Bay, which is a long way from their city and in a much better position to become trade juggernauts given a lot of the most valuable trading commodities exist in the remnants of Valyria's empire.

[Dimples]

Most of it isn't mapped, though, suggesting that there isn't a lot of contact between the peoples of eastern Essos and the rest of it. And they seem to trade with Slaver's Bay, which is a long way from their city and in a much better position to become trade juggernauts given a lot of the most valuable trading commodities exist in the remnants of Valyria's empire.

1. The information and maps in TWOIAF are based on what the Westerosi know about eastern Essos, which, logically, is quite a bit less than what the 'western' Essosi know.

2. Qarth has a very central position in Essos, if you include the eastern half. It also controls one of the few chokepoints between the two halves. Therefore, it's much, much more efficient for a trader from the west to stop at Qarth instead of traveling all over eastern Essos, and vice versa. Additionally, from what we know, the route through Qarth is the fastest and only sea route between east and west, so it you want to go that way by ship, you HAVE to stop at Qarth. To use your example, you don't have to stop and pay at Slaver's Bay if you were passing that way (damn, the rhyming). You could, but geography doesn't force you to.

[Yukle]

1. The information and maps in TWOIAF are based on what the Westerosi know about eastern Essos, which, logically, is quite a bit less than what the 'western' Essosi know.

2. Qarth has a very central position in Essos, if you include the eastern half. It also controls one of the few chokepoints between the two halves. Therefore, it's much, much more efficient for a trader from the west to stop at Qarth instead of traveling all over eastern Essos, and vice versa. Additionally, from what we know, the route through Qarth is the fastest and only sea route between east and west, so it you want to go that way by ship, you HAVE to stop at Qarth. To use your example, you don't have to stop and pay at Slaver's Bay if you were passing that way (damn, the rhyming). You could, but geography doesn't force you to.

There's mention made at Slaver's Bay of Sothyros, but never any of Ulthos. It may be that it's just never come up on conversation, but trading between Sothyros and Essos would never go via Qarth. The places east of Qarth aren't mentioned in the series at all, even when Dany was in Qarth. They also seem to have their fingers on the pulses of lots of what happens west of them.

It's not that Qarth is a terrible place to be, and they certainly have a key advantage in positioning themselves at the Jade Gates. It's that their position isn't central to Essos' most valuable areas. The World of Ice and Fire suggests that the Valyrians and Rhoynar invented most of the best and most useful things in the world. Their old foundations are both well west of Qarth. It's unclear if raw materials are traded from Essos' far east, which is entirely possible, through Qarth and then westwards. If that's the case then their position is still only somewhat justified.

I compare them to Slaver's Bay because that area has excellent land and sea ports. They have the Free Cities to their west, easily accessible by land or sea, the Dothraki Sea to their north, again accessible by land.

The books say that Qarth's rise came about with the Valyrian collapse, and that explains a great deal for me. I'd just always wondered how they managed to become influential at all.

Suppose, just a for a moment, that there are extremely valuable commodity trade networks between old Valyria and the far east of Essos. The problem lies that this expanse is SO VAST that it cannot possibly be worthwhile to send goods such a long way and still make a profit by the end of it. There's nothing that the Free Cities need that they cannot already get from much closer trade networks. When Dany is in Qarth it's never mentioned that there's anything on offer there that you couldn't find in Slaver's Bay - or even in Westeros. Nor is there any suggestion that they have goods so valuable that merchants would spend the required food and money to transport goods from Essos' far east all the way to the Free Cities.

And trade between Qarth and the Free cities (or Slaver's Bay) must happen if Qarth is to be a trading powerhouse. Trade powers need to be in a centrally superior location.

ETA: Although I did just think that perhaps Qarth makes its money getting goods from its eastern neighbours, then trading to Sothyros, which then trades with Slaver's Bay. It's ideally located for that, which kind of sticks a skewer through my ballooning argument. :P

[Ser Lepus]

Yi Ti's silk, Asshai's amethists, Leng's gems, Ulthos's saffron and Great Moraq's cinnamon, all make their way to the Narrow Sea. There is a profitable trade of luxury wares going between the Jade Sea and the West.

[Yukle]

Ulthos's saffron

Has Ulthos ever been mentioned other than the maps? I don't recall that.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Has Ulthos ever been mentioned other than the maps? I don't recall that.

Saffron Straits.

[AzureOwl]

Has Ulthos ever been mentioned other than the maps? I don't recall that.

No but the lands around the Jade Sea are mentioned constantly as a source of silk and spices, time and again.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

There was even a Silk Road that passed through the Bones [emoji3]

[Clueless Northman]

It's that their position isn't central to Essos' most valuable areas. The World of Ice and Fire suggests that the Valyrians and Rhoynar invented most of the best and most useful things in the world. Their old foundations are both well west of Qarth.

Except Yi Ti is basically China, the biggest and wealthiest empire around, with obviously a good technological level to boot - and was at the very least the equal of Valyria at its peak, like Han China was to the Roman Empire.

In this regard, Qarth would basically be where India is in our world.