The Ironborn Paradox still not solved (TWoIaF spoilers of course)

[Mithras]

Iron swords remained inferior to bronze swords for a long time. I think the First Men didnot know how to work iron when they first came to Westeros but after the Pact, they started to use iron during the Age of Heroes. The use of iron was never limited to weapons. Iron use in tools and even as jewellery is known. Bronze weapons still should have been superior to any iron sword the First Men were able to make.

Andals came with much advanced steel technology and that is why they prevailed.

Still, this does not explain how the ironborn made advanced ships and settled on the Iron Isles.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

First Men use Bronze
Ironborn (First Men or merlings/squishers with thrall First Men hybrids) use Iron

Andals use Steel

Steel>Iron>Bronze

There is also variety of weapons. Swords would be mostly an Andal weapon, while axes and clubs used by First Men. Pole arms by both. Spears and pikes are of little use on ships, so Ironborn would uses axes etc.

[joluoto2]

First Men use Bronze

Ironborn (First Men or merlings/squishers with thrall First Men hybrids) use Iron

Andals use Steel

Steel>Iron>Bronze

There is also variety of weapons. Swords would be mostly an Andal weapon, while axes and clubs used by First Men. Pole arms by both. Spears and pikes are of little use on ships, so Ironborn would uses axes etc.

The thing is, steel is the useful version of iron.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

The thing is, steel is the useful version of iron.

Useful version of iron? Its an alloy of iron. Mixed with carbon. It is not a variety. Iron is an ingredient. Steel is the cake.

[jet199]

A bit crackpot but the black weapons that drink souls does remind me of Valyrian steel. Especially as the book more than hints that human sacrifice was involved in making VS and the Nissa Nissa legend suggests that lightbringer may have been made that way.

Now, it could be that the culture the Ironborn descent from was also a bunch of dragonriding, Asshia building, human sacrificing, black stone masons but they also could also just have been First Men but with boats (or a mixture of those two groups).

I do think the reason that the Ironborn have better sailing technology is just because they come from a seafaring culture while those on the mainland were mostly people who had come over the Arm of Dorne and so had no maritime culture. The greenlanders just make the Ironborn look a lot better than they are. Once the Ironborn had to deal with the Andels their ship skills weren't so special any more.

I am actually upset now that people shouted down the reading of Aegon's TWOW chapter. GRRM said it had some "seriously twisted stuff".

[Waters Gate]

Iron swords remained inferior to bronze swords for a long time.

They did? It sounds true for armor, because armor workign technique's for bronze were more perfected when iron working was developed, smiths could still shape bronze much easier to fit right and do that economical.

But for weapons, i suppose that the added hardness of iron would mean that it would easier penetrate, and thus would be much better for piercing weapons for ex.

The hittite's did use iron during the bronze age for weapons and build an empire trough it, afaik.

[Mithras]

They did? It sounds true for armor, because armor workign technique's for bronze were more perfected when iron working was developed, smiths could still shape bronze much easier to fit right and do that economical.

But for weapons, i suppose that the added hardness of iron would mean that it would easier penetrate, and thus would be much better for piercing weapons for ex.

The hittite's did use iron during the bronze age for weapons and build an empire trough it, afaik.

Unlike steel, cast iron is a hard, brittle material with very low shock absorbtion. Before the invention of steel, iron swords were subject to breaking and people only used them because iron is found almost everywhere and it was much cheaper than bronze.

[Waters Gate]

Unlike steel, cast iron is a hard, brittle material with very low shock absorbtion. Before the invention of steel, iron swords were subject to breaking and people only used them because iron is found almost everywhere and it was much cheaper than bronze.

But the iron isles is a source of tin. If anything, they should have had the best bronze too, even if you lacked copper i bet in the bronze age you could get plenty of it for a bit of tin trough trading. And having a monopoly on ships aint too bad neither for trading. if anything the ironborn should be able to set the price for tin around westeros like that, unless there are very good tin mines on land.

Iron is cheaper yes, it is also somewhat lighter. I guess though the advantage of it was that you could equip a significantly larger army with it, whereas in the bronze age the bronze weaponry was really more owned by an elite class of society usually, so many bronze age army's would only have a core of fighters well equiped in bronze, often the richer citizins than really the best soldiers, and the rest would be various different types of units, cavalry, lighter armoured spearmen, etc. Such army structure's might have been vulnerable to large armies that came clad in iron.

[Maia]

Old-school steel, i.e. not chromed or stainless, does look dark/black if not constantly polished. I remember my grandparents having knives like that.

And the Ironborn having steel against the First Men's bronze explains how they have been so successful before the coming of the Andals.

It also explains why Andals were eventually welcomed even in the places that may have been able to fight them off - for their technology.

A pity that we didn't get a story about how the Northmen got the iron-smelting and steel technology. Did Theon the Hungry Wolf capture some artisans during his raid? Did the Manderlies bring it with them, as part of the payment that convinced the Starks to give them rich lands?

Re: the Deep Ones, if they are even real in ASOIAF, I see more obvious links with the Sistermen, who even have that Dunwich look ;). The Borrels at least. And whoever the first Ironmen used to be, due to children of thralls becoming free Ironborn and all the saltwives, as well as the Andal conquest, they are now pretty much the same as the rest of the Westerosi by blood blood. Perhaps, with more Essosi admixture than everybody bar Dorne.

[toffeejay]

Regarding the chapter.

Disapointed with the map included, it's always been said of 7 islands (plus Loney Light - being Ironborn but not technically part of Iron Islands). To hear there are 31 is interesting but then the map just has the 7 on it. Even if most of them are small rocks it would have been nice to have seen them.

Virtually nothing on Dagon Greyjoy, who it seems led them when they were last successful. Hoping that this has been left for a future Dunk & Egg story as he's been mentioned in all three so far?

The Hoares are strange, they seem more open to trade and Westeros than the rest - their Andal "black blood", some embrasing the seven yet then are even more violent and subjugating than the rest of the Ironborn. Their arms showing their captured prizes surrounded in chains. Quite contrasting.

Preety cool to hear that Balon wasn't in power during the Rebellion, finally explains why he didn't take part and then brooded for 5 years for his own rebellion.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

The deeds attributed to the Grey King by the priests and singers of the Iron Islands are many and marvelous. It was the Grey King who brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God until he lashed down with a thunderbolt, setting a tree ablaze. The Grey King also taught men to weave nets and sails and carved the first longship from the hard pale wood of Ygg, a demon tree who fed on human flesh.

is this weirwood???

[Waters Gate]

is this weirwood???

I thought ygg to be a reference to yggdrasil, an immense tree from norse mythology.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

I thought ygg to be a reference to yggdrasil, an immense tree from norse mythology.

I don´t know much of Norse mythology, but in some threads i recall people saying Weirwoods are inspired in yggdrasil.

if so, that line could be a hint that there were weirwoods in the Iron islands at some point.

[Waters Gate]

I don´t know much of Norse mythology, but in some threads i recall people saying Weirwoods are inspired in yggdrasil.

I'm not a specialist neither. Although norse mythology kinda befits the ironborn. Eitherway afaik yggdrasil is an extremely important tree in norse ythology, something like the mothertree, a tree which even carries whole realms in her branches and typicly is enourmous and reaches up to the sky, and from which other trees branch off to carry other realms, something like that.

if so, that line could be a hint that there were weirwoods in the Iron islands at some point.

If it were really a tree of the significance of yggdrasil, you could just aswell think that weirwoods originiated from the iron islands, and that its removal should have significant effects on the world. Yggdrasil tends to be that important.

[Hrafntýr]

Unlike steel, cast iron is a hard, brittle material with very low shock absorbtion. Before the invention of steel, iron swords were subject to breaking and people only used them because iron is found almost everywhere and it was much cheaper than bronze.

I think that the quality of the iron vis-a-vis bronze would depend upon what iron smelting techniques they developed, and I suppose the ore sources that they were using. There's not reason not to think that they might have used the bloomery process, and apparently, even in fairly primitive smelteries this process can produce steel if the smith has sufficient control of temperature, air flow and quality of ore (it's about controlling the carbon-carbon dioxide ratio in the furnace). However, this goes right back to the issue of trees: the charcoal required for smelting would have required lots of timber, so once again the IB would need to look elsewhere for timber, once they'd depleted the trees on the islands. But in any case, it's not a given that the iron produced would have been inferior to bronze.

I thought ygg to be a reference to yggdrasil, an immense tree from norse mythology.

It most certainly is, but I think there's enough Yggdrasil imagery associated with the weirwoods (like old One Eye and ravens and even the little "squirrel" people) to make this (especially the fact that Ygg's wood is hard and pale) another little hint that the IB or the Iron Isles might have had something to do with weirwoods in the past.

ETA: @Waters Gate: I don't think we need to see the IB one as THE Yggdrasil, however, since I think that any weirwood with a greenseer would be a Yggdrasil, given that they are all connected. But now that there is a "last greenseer" (though I don't know that's the case, given that we've seen other enthroned figures elsewhere in the caves), it could be that the one where Bran is might stand as "the" Yggdrasil.

[Waters Gate]

yggdrasil i thought was an Ash tree, which doesn't look all that white, not like say an aspen tree.

[H0X0]

It's the smelting of iron from ore that is difficult and made it a less popular material through the bronze age. It could be found in small quantities from meteorites.

Working iron in a wood fired forge basically turns it into steel. But it's very poor steel. It still harder and holds an edge better than bronze, making it better for weapons (and many other things). But until smelting iron ore is possible, bronze is king.

[RumHam]

I am actually upset now that people shouted down the reading of Aegon's TWOW chapter. GRRM said it had some "seriously twisted stuff".

Probably nobody wanted to hear about a guy being molested by his brother at a convention.