The Ironborn Paradox still not solved (TWoIaF spoilers of course)

[joluoto2]

Still no good explanation to iron (Ironborn,Iron Price, Greyirons etc.) references from pre- Andal times, just more questions. Sure, iron doesn't necessary mean the metal, but the hardness of the Ironborn, but why in Seven Hells would Westeros use a Ironborn word for the metal when the Andals introduced it?

We of course have other theories that are even more confusing. Could the Ironborn have used iron long before the Andals came over? This would have to mean there were no other iron in all of Westeros, since the First Men would have adopted it to fight the Ironborn, ust like they learned to use iron and thus became more equal in their fights against the Andals.

While the reference to iron is the most confusing one, there are some other really confusing things about the Ironborn. That Ironborn kings from the Age of Heroes fought Andal kings in the Riverlands can be handwaved. The Age of Heroes is a loose concept, that end at different times at different places (usually with the arrival of the Andals in one particular region). So yes, I consider it possible for the Iron Islands to be in the Age of Heroes while the Riverlands are already Andal dominated.

Then we have the theory put forward that the original Ironmen were not First Men, which is interesting (would explain why they have another religion). This theory have problems of course. Where would they have come from? The Drowned Priests claim they came from the bottom of the sea (which is stupid, I'm with the Maesters on this one). Another possibility is they came from the west. This still wouldn't explain their cultural alikenesses with the First Men (such as thralldom, which the early First Men also practiced).

Instead of solving the Ironborn Paradox, the World book made it even wider.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Iron has always existed, and the Iron Islands are proof enough of that. However the ironborn are probs first men.

Maybe the Andals bought steel?

[Waters Gate]

Some weird numeroligy i just want to point out, might not mean anything, but ill leave it to you to decide. From woiaf:

Mapmakers tell us that there are thirty-one Iron Islands in the main grouping off Ironman’s Bay west of the Cape of Eagles, and thirteen more clustered around the Lonely Light, far out in the vastness of the Sunset Sea. The major islands of the chain number seven: Old Wyk, Great Wyk, Pyke, Harlaw, Saltcliffe, Blacktyde, and Orkmont.

weirdly, this makes me think about the legend of Hugor of the hilln the legendary andal no less:

According to the Seven-Pointed Star, King Hugor is a major part of the Faith of the Seven. He was supposedly crowned by the Father himself who pulled down seven stars to make his crown. The Maid brought forth a girl supple as a willow with eyes like deep blue pools that Hugor took as his first wife. The Mother made her fertile, and she bore him forty-four mighty sons as foretold by the Crone. The Warrior gave each son strength of arms and the Smith wrought each a suit of iron plate. His realm was extensive, spreading from the hills of northern Andalos to the southern marches, now called the Flatlands, in the south."

Iirc the 7 came down himself to crown hugor, or he met all 7 first, and eitherway they gave him a seven pointed crown. Later came the 44 sons. i have thought about the significance of these numbers before, trying to find a parallel, though obviously while the number 7 reoccurs a lot the number 44 is rather uncoman in the books.

But i noticed that 31 islands + 13 islands do come down to 44 islands. And there are 7 main islands.

The idea that the warrior bore each a suit of iron plate possibly at their birth also fits neatly with the "ironborn", who are very much warriors too. However, this is an andal, faith of the 7 legend were talking about here, so that seems rather off.

The Iron islanders have theor own story regarding their origin:

In the Age of Heroes, the legends say, the ironborn were ruled by a mighty monarch known simply as the Grey King. The Grey King ruled the sea itself and took a mermaid to wife, so his sons and daughters might live above the waves or beneath them as they chose.

The Grey King was king over all the Iron Islands, but he left a hundred sons behind him, and upon his death they began to quarrel over who would succeed him. Brother killed brother in an orgy of kinslaying until only sixteen remained. These last survivors divided up the islands between them. All the great houses of the ironborn claim descent from the Grey King and his sons save, curiously, the Goodbrothers of Old Wyk and Great Wyk, who supposedly derive from the Grey King’s leal eldest brother.

The grey king had a 100 sons supposedly, instead of 44. It is to say that the number 100 is more often used symboligcly as "a lot", whereas 44 is afcourse far more specific. While it doesn't fit in numbers, it does surprize me that otherwise there are quite a lot of parrallels in their stories. First of all the story of hugor of the hill strikes as somewhat similar as that of Abraham in judaic religion, that is a figure that became the father of all the people trough his many sons. The grey king seems as much as the father of his people as Hugor the hill seems, save for a few ironborn who appear to be from the brother of the grey king. Both take a wive from their gods, and get these kids from that holy union. both kings also get a crown, Hugor his seven pointed one and the grey king his driftwood one.

If you would consider other story's of origin behind people or races, i guess noone would show as much simmilarity with that Andal legend of the father of his people, safe for the legends of the ironborn. The Andals themselfs became only really prominent in history when they invaded the eastern coasts of Westeros, with lots of ships i presume, and iron weapons.

[Jaak]

Besides, we have the obvious absurdity:

Even among the ironborn there are some who doubt this and acknowledge the more widely accepted view of an ancient descent from the First Men—even though the First Men, unlike the later Andals, were never a seafaring people.

Um. Iron Islands are not the only isles around Westeros.

On Sunset Sea, there are Arbor, Fair Isle and Bear Isle. On Narrow Sea, Greenstone, Tarth and Dragonstone archipelago. On Shivering Sea, Sisters and Skagos.

1) Who were the first men to settle those isles if First Men were not seafaring?

2) Why did none of these islanders become conquerors like Ironmen did?

[Ramsay Gimp]

"Bless him with steel..."

The Iron Islands have gone through many tumultuous and even revolutionary periods. We know their society has changed significantly in 8,000 years. Perhaps the islanders didn't call themselves "Ironborn" until after the Andals arrived, mixed with the natives, and started making use of all the iron there. Yes, I realize there were many Ironborn Kings in the days of the First Men, and they already had their basic culture, but their name may well have been different and current maestrers simply use "Ironborn" because the original FM name was lost.

[LordBloodraven]

"Bless him with steel..."

The Iron Islands have gone through many tumultuous and even revolutionary periods. We know their society has changed significantly in 8,000 years. Perhaps the islanders didn't call themselves "Ironborn" until after the Andals arrived, mixed with the natives, and started making use of all the iron there. Yes, I realize there were many Ironborn Kings in the days of the First Men, and they already had their basic culture, but their name may well have been different and current maestros simply use "Ironborn" because the original FM name was lost.

Probably. "Ironborn" might be a later name

[jet199]

Besides, we have the obvious absurdity:
Um. Iron Islands are not the only isles around Westeros.
On Sunset Sea, there are Arbor, Fair Isle and Bear Isle. On Narrow Sea, Greenstone, Tarth and Dragonstone archipelago. On Shivering Sea, Sisters and Skagos.

1) Who were the first men to settle those isles if First Men were not seafaring?
2) Why did none of these islanders become conquerors like Ironmen did?

Well the Sisters' mythology certainly shares aspects with the Ironborn (as does the Durrandon origin myth). I did think the reason for this was because they were not near the CotF so were able to keep some First Men gods but it could be because there were two separate groups of First Men.

If I remember my palaeoanthropology lectures correctly there were two groups who colonised Britain after the last ice age. The coastal people, who came first as travelling by sea was quicker and safer than by land, they went along the south and up the west coast. The their people who lived on the plains, who came over the land bridge. Then when the land bridge was gone the east coast got a dose of coastal people. Then when agriculture was invented it spread first through the plains people in Europe and then to the south and east of Britain, as their were still cultural links from when they were joined. This agricultural culture then took over most of the land but there were still some differences left over from the previous cultural divide.

How this would work in Westeros is than the coastal people, pre-Ironborn, would colonise South Dorne, the Arbour and the coast of the Reach, the Iron Islands, the Westerlands coast and the northern coast up to the Shivering Sea as well as going up the major rivers. They come across CotF but as they get most of their food from the sea they don't really come into conflict. They maybe learn CotF magic but keep their gods.

Then plains people, what we recognise as First Men and probably similar to the Dothraki but hunting mammoths, cross the land bridge and slowly move north colonising the inland areas of Westeros and the nicer bits of the east coast. They come up against the CotF, have a war and are made to give up their gods for peace.

During the war the arm of Dorne is smashed leaving the people on the east separated from their people in Essos. The more difficult parts of the east coast, the Stormlands and the Sisters, then get colonised by coastal people, who were from the same group as the west coast people (maybe even from the west coast) but worship the Storm God as well as the Sea God. These coastal people also colonise the north west coast of Essos.

The coastal dwellers intermingle with the plains people when agriculture appears and seem to disappear from everywhere but the edges when actually they have just mixed in. Westeros becomes a land of farmers but also a bit of a back water because the new technology now travels easiest across land, with one group teaching it's neighbours, so they have to rely on Essosian people coming over to share new ideas or sending people over. Over time the agricultural and weapons culture in Essos becomes much more advanced, they adopt a religion which fits with a farming and feudal society, but still includes some of the history of the people, then invade Westeros as the Andels (possibly because they have ancestral knowledge of it as well as ties they have with some of the Lords).

The reason that the Ironborn seem different to the First Men might be because there were two very different types of first men but that difference got lost in Westeros when agriculture came in and every region amended their culture to go with it except for the Ironborn who maintained a seafaring lifestyle and just included raiding so they could benefit from other people's farming.

Of course this relies on GRRM having read all the same books that I have.

As for why the only the Ironborn became conquerors, they have a lot of push factors to make them want to leave and conquer elsewhere while many of the other islands are relatively comfortable.

In regards to the Ironborn being called so before iron was known, the fact that metals came out of stone was known before people started making it into things. Using ore stones as the base of a fire would lead to the metal leaking out. In societies which don't use metals for tools or weapons it is still known and often seen as having spiritual properties and used for ornament. I would probably assume that the reason the Ironborn called themselves so was because they knew that the rocks on their islands were a bit different and so used than to mark themselves out, maybe they were even wearing iron long before the Andels brought steel weapons over.

[Hrafntýr]

@Waters Gate: You might add to your numerological speculations the 44 "ribs" of Nagga that make up the Grey King's Hall. I've always thought they were dead weirwoods, with the Seastone Chair an old greenseer's seat, the Grey King having been a greenseer (the marriage to a mermaid being the greenseer's "marriage" to the trees, and helping to account for the 1000 year reign). But the myth could, I suppose, combine what came before (the old gods) with those who destroyed it.

But I don't know what to make of the interesting numerological overlap with the Andal origin myth you cite, which is interesting.

Also: 31 weirwoods at High Heart, though I don't believe we see them paired with a 13.

[Maia]

"possessed of _foul black weapons_ that drank the very souls of those they slew."

It seems pretty evident to me that the Ironborn used iron/steel before the Andals came, while the rest of Westerosi still used bronze. Which is what, in part gave them such an edge and made them so relatively powerful. I mean, they don't even have copper deposits on the islands. Nor is it implausible that they would have been able to keep the technology secret, by keeping all the smelters and smiths back on the islands. It was the same situation with continental First Men as with the wildlings "now" - they know that steel exists, but they can't make any on heir own.

[Ran]

This is me just being a fan, no inside info...

So, the ironborn say their name _doesn't_ come from the ore, but from their nature as hard men.

So take the back into the distant, pre-Andal past, before the smelting of iron was discovered. They didn't call their isles the "Iron Isles" -- they called them the "*Hard Isles" in the early ironborn dialect of the Old Tongue. When iron's discovered, they apply the same word to it in the Old Tongue, and then in later centuries the Andals conquer the Isles and bring their language and transliterate. The "*Hard Isles" become the "Iron Isles".

[Mithras]

I was about to open this thread.

It was surprising to hear that Pyke was an ancient castle with unknown origins along with the Seastone Chair. It is also heavily implied both in ASOIAF and TWOIAF that Pyke was hit by the Hammer of the Waters once (relentless hammering of the waves) and it will be hit again.

The Grey King supposedly defeated a sea dragon and enthralled her living fire. Considering the unnatural origin of dragons, maybe the Grey King was the first person to create dragons and start his dynasty.

Iron was not an unknown material in Bronze Ages in Real World. It was very hard and expensive. It was used similar to jewellery stuff. Developing the technology to produce steel with a lower cost and make tools took a long time. So, it is quite possible that the First Men tribes much before the arrival of the Andals might have called themselves ironborn even without the technology to produce steel.

However, there is still the mystery of how the First Men reached the Iron Islands and managed to live there considering that the First Men were not seafaring people. Same thing is also valid for Skagos.

I think likely possibilities are either both these islands were connected to mainland but seperated due to some catastrophy or the sea froze during the Long Night and people simply walked there.

[Hrafntýr]

"possessed of _foul black weapons_ that drank the very souls of those they slew."

It seems pretty evident to me that the Ironborn used iron/steel before the Andals came, while the rest of Westerosi still used bronze. Which is what, in part gave them such an edge and made them so relatively powerful. I mean, they don't even have copper deposits on the islands. Nor is it implausible that they would have been able to keep the technology secret, by keeping all the smelters and smiths back on the islands. It was the same situation with continental First Men as with the wildlings "now" - they know that steel exists, but they can't make any on heir own.

That quote made me too believe that the Ironborn had independently developed (crude) iron smithing technology. That and the crown that Theon wears after he takes Winterfell. I don't have the books to look it up, but he's wearing it and someone notes how ugly and crude it is and says something like, "What, did you make that yourself?"

If I'm not mistaken, in the real world, there is evidence that several cultures probably developed iron smelting technologies independently (for example the Haya in northwest Tanzania, whose development of this technology seems distinct from the development of iron smelting in Egypt and the Near East).

This is me just being a fan, no inside info...

So, the ironborn say their name _doesn't_ come from the ore, but from their nature as hard men.

So take the back into the distant, pre-Andal past, before the smelting of iron was discovered. They didn't call their isles the "Iron Isles" -- they called them the "*Hard Isles" in the early ironborn dialect of the Old Tongue. When iron's discovered, they apply the same word to it in the Old Tongue, and then in later centuries the Andals conquer the Isles and bring their language and transliterate. The "*Hard Isles" become the "Iron Isles".

But this seems plausible, too, albeit a very maesterly sort of an explanation!

[Mithras]

Tin ores are very important because that is the limiting material in bronze. Disruption in tin supply was one of the reasons of Late Bronze Age Collapse.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Well maybe another Hammer of the Waters did in for the Iron Islands? The Neck Hammer would not affect the Isles, but if the CotF tried to cleanse them of merlings or something... Idk

I see First Men influence, but that seems much weaker now. Perhaps the ironborn truly are their own race. Which takes my back to merlings.

[RumHam]

This is me just being a fan, no inside info...

So, the ironborn say their name _doesn't_ come from the ore, but from their nature as hard men.

So take the back into the distant, pre-Andal past, before the smelting of iron was discovered. They didn't call their isles the "Iron Isles" -- they called them the "*Hard Isles" in the early ironborn dialect of the Old Tongue. When iron's discovered, they apply the same word to it in the Old Tongue, and then in later centuries the Andals conquer the Isles and bring their language and transliterate. The "*Hard Isles" become the "Iron Isles".

So were the Yronwoods called something else at one point? Or is that not supposed to be read Ironwoods.

[Waters Gate]

I was about to open this thread.

It was surprising to hear that Pyke was an ancient castle with unknown origins along with the Seastone Chair. It is also heavily implied both in ASOIAF and TWOIAF that Pyke was hit by the Hammer of the Waters once (relentless hammering of the waves) and it will be hit again.

The Grey King supposedly defeated a sea dragon and enthralled her living fire. Considering the unnatural origin of dragons, maybe the Grey King was the first person to create dragons and start his dynasty.

here is just an idea:

the sea dragon was actually a volcano in the water. Volcano's can emerge from the sea and create islands, and maybe the slewing of the dragon myth refers to the creation of the islands. The volcano spewed hot lava all around but the sea god extinquished the fire with water.

The black type of stone that the seastone chair has been made of, has a good potential to be made of a volcanic type of stone. maybe it was created indeed sorta by fusing water with fire. one thing about all that black stone around is that it's near water.

[Mithras]

Nagga's ribs were definitely weirwoods. Maybe the Iron Islands were a single and larger land mass connected to the mainland and heavily forested enough to allow weirwood growth. However, a volcanic catastrophy shattered the land and created the islands. This might have happened before the arrival of the First Men.

[RumHam]

Nagga's ribs were definitely weirwoods. Maybe the Iron Islands were a single and larger land mass connected to the mainland and heavily forested enough to allow weirwood growth. However, a volcanic catastrophy shattered the land and created the islands. This might have happened before the arrival of the First Men.

I was really hoping the "weirwoods can't grow on the isles" thing would kill this theory. The idea that people can't tell the difference between petrified rib bones and petrified trees (which have a root system, branches, and bark on them) is silly if you ask me.

[Ramsay Gimp]

This is me just being a fan, no inside info...

So, the ironborn say their name _doesn't_ come from the ore, but from their nature as hard men.

So take the back into the distant, pre-Andal past, before the smelting of iron was discovered. They didn't call their isles the "Iron Isles" -- they called them the "*Hard Isles" in the early ironborn dialect of the Old Tongue. When iron's discovered, they apply the same word to it in the Old Tongue, and then in later centuries the Andals conquer the Isles and bring their language and transliterate. The "*Hard Isles" become the "Iron Isles".

This is good. Like I further up, the people we call Ironnmen today weren't necessarily called that in the days of the First Men. They speak a different language for drowned god's sake!

[joluoto2]

Regarding the colonization of islands by the First Men. Even if they were not a seafaring people they might still have had some small vessels, and the islands close to Westeros are not that far from the coast.