The Ironborn Paradox still not solved (TWoIaF spoilers of course)

[Waters Gate]

This is good. Like I further up, the people we call Ironnmen today weren't necessarily called that in the days of the First Men. They speak a different language for drowned god's sake!

Well people were wondering how the people that are now called he ironborn came to settle the islands in the first place if the first men didn't seem naval going. But maybe driftwood is the sollution there, someone maybe fell in some water, held to some wood, and got beached there., and then you get an abrahamic like storey of a "great father of the people", and a driftwood crown. Although he would afcourse then have required a wife.

[Hrafntýr]

I was really hoping the "weirwoods can't grow on the isles" thing would kill this theory. The idea that people can't tell the difference between petrified rib bones and petrified trees (which have a root system, branches, and bark on them) is silly if you ask me.

Thing is, though, I think this "weirwoods can't grow on the isles" thing is rather like Cat's "no weirwoods in the south" thing, insofar as both concern weirwoods and both are called into question by information in TWoIaF. Even though the Iron Isles section contains that conventional statement about weirwoods, and the rocky, crappy soil of the Isles, it also says the following, "In the dawn of days, there were extensive forests on Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont, but the shipwrights of the isles had such a voracious need for timber that one by one the woods vanished." (176-7) I tend to believe this statement, rather than the assumption that just because weirwoods don't grow there now means they never did.

But this is rather far away from the topic of the "iron" of the Ironborn!

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Thing is, though, I think this "weirwoods can't grow on the isles" thing is rather like Cat's "no weirwoods in the south" thing, insofar as both concern weirwoods and both are called into question by information in TWoIaF. Even though the Iron Isles section contains that conventional statement about weirwoods, and the rocky, crappy soil of the Isles, it also says the following, "In the dawn of days, there were extensive forests on Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont, but the shipwrights of the isles had such a voracious need for timber that one by one the woods vanished." (176-7) I tend to believe this statement, rather than the assumption that just because weirwoods don't grow there now means they never did.

But this is rather far away from the topic of the "iron" of the Ironborn!

also:

The greatest of the priests was the towering prophet Galon Whitestaff, so-called for the tall carved staff he carried everywhere to smite the ungodly. (In some tales his staff was made of weirwood, in others from one of Nagga’s bones.)

[Hrafntýr]

That's a very good one, LordToo-Fat! It makes the weirwood=Nagga's bones identification explicit.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I was a believer in the Naggas bones= weirwood as well, but I believe there is a line about a master from the Iron Isles comparing the base of the Hightower to the sea stone chair, indicating the sea stone chair at least was black.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

I was a believer in the Naggas bones= weirwood as well, but I believe there is a line about a master from the Iron Isles comparing the base of the Hightower to the sea stone chair, indicating the sea stone chair at least was black.

the seastone chair was never said to be weirwood... i think you are mixing the throne of the grey king and the seastone chair.

[Hrafntýr]

^^That might have been in response to one of my posts above, in which I posited Grey King on Seastone Chair=greenseer "enthroned" in weirwoods.

But you're quite right that the Grey King's throne is gone.

[RumHam]

That's a very good one, LordToo-Fat! It makes the weirwood=Nagga's bones identification explicit.

I really don't think it does. It gives two possible materials this white staff could have been made from. The Others are said to ride dead horses or ice spiders. That doesn't meant dead horses and ice spiders are the same thing.

[cgf]

That quote made me too believe that the Ironborn had independently developed (crude) iron smithing technology. That and the crown that Theon wears after he takes Winterfell. I don't have the books to look it up, but he's wearing it and someone notes how ugly and crude it is and says something like, "What, did you make that yourself?"

If I'm not mistaken, in the real world, there is evidence that several cultures probably developed iron smelting technologies independently (for example the Haya in northwest Tanzania, whose development of this technology seems distinct from the development of iron smelting in Egypt and the Near East).

But this seems plausible, too, albeit a very maesterly sort of an explanation!

Ran is our Maester, of course his answers will be maesterly ;)

also:

That's the one that sold me on Nagga's ribs being weirwood trees once.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

I really don't think it does. It gives two possible materials this white staff could have been made from. The Others are said to ride dead horses or ice spiders. That doesn't meant dead horses and ice spiders are the same thing.

maybe not, but it reinforces a preexisting link.. to me serves as aditional evidence for the theory.. certainly not confirmation, but a hint.

i mean, thats why no one notices Nagga as Weirwood, because this kind of trees don´t grow in the Iron islands (at least not any more)

even though it seems like petrified tree, no one asociates it with wierwood, because that would be impossible..

[H0X0]

here is just an idea:

the sea dragon was actually a volcano in the water. Volcano's can emerge from the sea and create islands, and maybe the slewing of the dragon myth refers to the creation of the islands. The volcano spewed hot lava all around but the sea god extinquished the fire with water.

The black type of stone that the seastone chair has been made of, has a good potential to be made of a volcanic type of stone. maybe it was created indeed sorta by fusing water with fire. one thing about all that black stone around is that it's near water.

Iron rich ores (on earth at least) are found in sedimentary formations, occurring after photosynthetic life when atmospheric oxygen fixed most of the iron in the sea. Volcanic island (I think) are usually iron poor.

ETA: I am wrong. TIL there are significant iron deposits found in certain volcanic flows.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_ore Magmatic magnetite ore deposits

[Waters Gate]

Having played some dwarf fortress from time to time, i can confirm both, usually volcanic rock is rather poor for iron ore, but in certain circusmtances it can be rather rich of it. I think it depends on the circumstances in which it forms, i'm no geologist though.

I was trying to find reference to the color of the stone that the island mainly has. I couldn't find that so easily, but what does seem apparent though is that the islands have very few of a soil layer above the rock, which i guess would be rather logical for young islands formed by volcano's.

[H0X0]

Great Wyk/Old Wyk does have a Santorini/Fernandina-Isabela shape to it. Might be something to the volcanic origin hypothesis.

[Waters Gate]

The iron islands are said to produce, besides iron, also lead and tin.

Tin, at 2 ppm is the 49th most "abundant" element in the earth crust. It's actually not that abundant in the sense that it was in ancient times sometimes difficult to obtain, and that to travel from some distance, stimulating trade in ancient times. lead is at 14 ppm. iron is 50.000 ppm. So Tin is somewhat rare, and is usually associated with granite, not sure if it occurs much beyond that or in any viable quantity's atleast. Iirc the only viable source one would have in that time for tin would be Cassiterite which would be found in granite.

Granite is an felsic intrusive igneous rock , so says wiki. the igneous as you might know stands for the fact that it was formed out of lava, intrusion is about how the lava pushed up from under the surface, and felsic about the elements it contains.

and from wiki:

"Occasionally granite and ultrapotassic igneous rocks segregate magnetite crystals and form masses of magnetite suitable for economic concentration. A few iron ore deposits, notably in Chile, are formed from volcanic flows containing significant accumulations of magnetite phenocrysts."

on cassiterite:

"Most sources of cassiterite today are found in alluvial or placer deposits containing the resistant weathered grains. The best sources of primary cassiterite are found in the tin mines of Bolivia, where it is found in hydrothermal veins."

hydrothermal veins:

"Hydrothermal circulation in its most general sense is the circulation of hot water. Hydrothermal circulation occurs most often in the vicinity of sources of heat within the Earth's crust. In general, this occurs near volcanic activity, but can occur in the deep crust related to the intrusion of granite, or as the result of orogeny or metamorphism."

In conclusion, the occurance of large iron deposits + tin deposits might strongly suggest to the main stone of the iron islands being granite, but not nessecarily formed by volcanic erruption.

[AtomixIGN]

Before this I had a little theory I that Naga's Ribs was a weirwood grove which barely survived some tragedy like the Children's flooding of the Neck. Or that tradgedy was the Flooding of the Neck and the Children had nothing to do with it. In the wake of that - survivors or travelers carved the grove into ribs and they petrified - meanwhile the Riverlands by the Ironman's coast were wiped out and all that was left was a muddy mess - which led to the founding of House Mudd.

[Ser Lepus]

While the Iron Islands and the Ironborn have always existed, that doesn't mean that they were always called the same way. When the Andals introduced ironsmithing into Westeros, the Ironborn probably slowly incorporated it into their religion and mythology, and eventually took it as their own name.

[joluoto2]

While the Iron Islands and the Ironborn have always existed, that doesn't mean that they were always called the same way. When the Andals introduced ironsmithing into Westeros, the Ironborn probably slowly incorporated it into their religion and mythology, and eventually took it as their own name.

But we do have iron references from before the arrival of the Andals, such as House Greyiron.

[Ser Lepus]

But we do have iron references from before the arrival of the Andals, such as House Greyiron.

Good point. I guess ironworking arrived to the Iron Islands before the Andal Invasion, then.

[Maia]

But we do have iron references from before the arrival of the Andals, such as House Greyiron.

Heh, I always read it as "Grey_rion_ for some reason, and never saw the connection ;). But yea, this in addition to the reports of the Ironborn wielding powerful _black_ weapons hints that they had known ironworking way before continental Westeros did. Which was one of the components of their successes against the First Men.

IIRC, historically ironworking had been discovered much earlier than the "Bronze Age" ended in some places. If the Ironborn had particularly rich and easily accessible iron deposits and no copper ones, it would make perfect sense. Not to mention all the legends of them originating from a different people - one who may have already had the technology.

[Lord Varys]

Could we perhaps go with the Deep Ones connection of the First Men, i.e. they being descended from some other (human) race that only became First Men due to the saltwives and thralls they captured on the mainland? If they are a people with different origins than the First Men in Westeros, they could have began to work iron much more earlier than men of Westeros did (who learned this stuff only when the Andals came).

There is a pretty big hint in the book that both the ships of the Ironborn as well as their superior weaponry gave them a huge advantage over the First Men prior to the coming of the Andals.