Was Alyn Velaryon loyal to his wife Baela Targaryen?

[BaguastanSelmy]

Where was this?

another theory coming out from the board? I've already seen Alysanne x Corlys, Alysanne x Lucamore...

[Lord Varys]

On Jaehaerys/Alysanne:

I suggested something like that, although I'm more inclined to believe that Alysanne left Jaehaerys for another man than the other way around.

[Hardstone]

And my Lucamore suggestion was a joke. :-)

[BaguastanSelmy]

And my Lucamore suggestion was a joke. :-)

:devil: I almost believe! :)

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

That old quote about Alyn being 'married to another' comes from Elaena's description for the Amok portrait and has been superseded by the stuff GRRM wrote from TWoIaF (already in effect since TPatQ). Originally Alyn Velaryon was apparently not alive during the Dance, but rather a first cousin of the children of Aegon III (through Aegon's wife, Daenaera Velaryon), and most likely only a few years older than the Young Dragon.

In that scenario Elaena and Alyn would have fallen in love in the middle of their life, and Alyn's wife - whoever she would have been in that scenario - would have still been alive when that happened, effectively preventing a marriage.

We don't know when Elaena's children by Alyn were born, but it is entirely possible that he did not know she was pregnant and that the children were only born after he went missing. In fact, I assume that Alyn would have not gone on that sea voyage if he had known that Elaena was pregnant, or if she had already delivered his children. I guess they would have gone through with the marriage after her pregnancy was known in any case, to spare Elaena Daena's shame.

Thanks for clarifying the "married to another" quote thing!! I had actually sat down and tried to work out how Alyn was Elaena's cousin ( the Targs and Velaryons are obviously closely related but the "cousin" thing didn't strike me as obvious, unless it was being used very broadly). So thanks!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

another theory coming out from the board? I've already seen Alysanne x Corlys, Alysanne x Lucamore...

I had seen it as a theory, but Maia's post almost made it sound like a sure thing, so I got confused..

[Moondancer]

The marriage between Alyn and Rhaena seems to be a political match, devised by Corlys during his regency to assure that Alyn was not questions as heir to Driftmark when he died.

With that in mind, and having in mind that Baela ended "burned and battered" from his fight with Aegon II (presumably leaving scars for the rest of her life), I wouldn't blame Alyn too much for being ungaithful to his wife.

Alyn tried to ride a dragon, remember? He's burned as well.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Alyn tried to ride a dragon, remember? He's burned as well.

That was only on his back and his legs.

Exactly which body parts Baela burned, is still unclear.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

That was only on his back and his legs.

Exactly which body parts Baela burned, is still unclear.

I mean... I know Gyldayne (I do not know how to spell that name) is writing a hundred years after the fact so so maybe his sources are mixed, but it seems like a pretty horrific incident.

Sunfyre fried Moondancer full in the face, so I suppose she may have been shielding behind Moondancer's neck (and Moondancer was only the size of a horse), but she would have gotten a bit toasted. Is it said she also fell? I know Moondancer was still alive so she would have been struggling to stay aloft, thus slowing and softening the fall. I guess Baela may have gotten banged up, but let's say it wasn't worst case scenario, and she only broke things that could heal well.

But that blast of fire though...

So it seems odd she's scheming six months later and playing matchmaker a year and half after that.

Maybe her Targ "everybody gets one" fire resistance thing kicked in.

[Moondancer]

That was only on his back and his legs.

Exactly which body parts Baela burned, is still unclear.

He'd be an understanding partner, at least, regardless of the severity of the wounds; he idolises his brother, a great rider and Baela's fate is akin do Addam's.

What kind of rationalisation is this - ok, she's burnt, so good and ready for being disrespected/cheated on? Or the importance of the location of the scars?

Alyn has the forum's permission to cheat! (Hear that, Rhae Rhae?)

One understands a person's motive for cheating if the goods are damaged but if they cheat - heavens forbid - out of love, for necessity for personal happiness, then it's no, no, that's baaaad.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

He'd be an understanding partner, at least, regardless of the severity of the wounds; he idolises his brother, a great rider and Baela's fate is akin do Addam's.

What kind of rationalisation is this - ok, she's burnt, so good and ready for being disrespected/cheated on? Or the importance of the location of the scars?

Alyn has the forum's permission to cheat! (Hear that, Rhae Rhae?)

One understands a person's motive for cheating if the goods are damaged but if they cheat - heavens forbid - out of love, for necessity for personal happiness, then it's no, no, that's baaaad.

I wasn't justifying Alyn cheating on Baela.. ;)

[Moondancer]

I wasn't justifying Alyn cheating on Baela.. ;)

Well, the way you put it makes it seems so, especially in the context of the post I was addressing prior to quoting the one of yours.

(I feel the need to add that as far as romantic triangles go, frictional or not, I have a great deal of understanding for all the parties. The one who cheats simply made their choice, their priorities are clear if withheld. I personally value honesty above the singular/popular notions of fidelity and loyalty but I also can see that life isn't that simple and what may seem straightforward to me is difficult for the others. What I cannot and will not comprehend is someone giving they-ugly-but-I-totes-understand-you and they-gorge-how-cloud-you-not-hit-that reasons for such occurrences.)

I guess rationalisations are rational, duh. :D

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, the way you put it makes it seems so, especially in the context of the post I was addressing prior to quoting the one of yours.

I was just providing a fact, to show that their burns are seemingly of a different category, as I felt you thought Alyn was burned all over. Alyn can hide his burns. But we don't know about Baela's wounds, and that was the second thing I was trying to get across. Perhaps Baela's face is reasonably unharmed (it's a natural reflex to try and cover your face, to shield your face from harm, though, since she was in dragon's fire, on the back of a dragon, chained and thus limited in moving, shielding her face with her arms and hands might not have been enough).

Speaking of the possible burns on her face.. With the facts that she was influental, and appeared in public at a ball hosted by her half-brother... No where is it mentioned that Baela had been blinded by the fire, or such.. And dragon's fire is hot, and eyes are vulnerable, so damage there is easy. Yet no word about anything like that (though, of course, it might have been left out). Did her dragon take most of the fire, thus shielding her from the worst of it? If she indeed was shielded from the worst of it, how much fire exactly did she take? Perhaps the scarring was only minimal.

Does scars/burns equal "right to cheat"? No, of course not.

I think that Alyn's possible cheating, and then the reason as to why, is rather difficult to establish when we know so little of both their characters.. Did Alyn value appearance above all else in a spouse? We don't know, so no one can state with certainty that Baela's wounds, which we know nothing about, except that they were there (but where...), were the reason.

I would like to point out, though, that Alyn valued loyalty, very highly. Loyalty does not only appear in battle and war, when fighting for a King or Queen. Loyalty also appears in a marriage. That would be an argument against Alyn cheating, possibly.

What I've also not yet seen anyone say, is that perhaps Alyn and Baela had an understanding. Most likely, their marriage was a political one, not one out of love. So perhaps, they made an understanding, like Rhaenyra and Laenor seem to have had. "Birth me a few heirs, and then have your pleasures as long as I am at sea, but take your moon tea", or something like this.

And, Princess Aliandra "showing great favor" to Alyn when he visited Sunspear (both times), would be saying more about her, than about him. The fact that she showed favor (which might not even have been flirting, or more) says nothing about Alyn having done anything with that. Did he respond to her "favor"? It doesn't say.

So is it possible he cheated? Yes, if only because this is Westeros/asoiaf that we're speaking of, and men seem to father bastards quite frequently. Do we have any hints? Not really. The Elaena thing, but it sounds, like has been said here before, that Baela had been dead by that point. The rest is all pure speculation.

[Moondancer]

I was just providing a fact, to show that their burns are seemingly of a different category, as I felt you thought Alyn was burned all over.

I said he was burnt as well, to subtly point out the underlying hypocrisy of the poster without being argumentative, for the man is burned. The post was factual - I didn't mention scars or give further implications.

Alyn can hide his burns. But we don't know about Baela's wounds, and that was the second thing I was trying to get across. Perhaps Baela's face is reasonably unharmed (it's a natural reflex .

He can hide little from the people who know him intimately, like a wife would. And what if she's really scarred? The argument becomes less shitty?

They are both marked by the dragons. And perhaps that too was part of their attraction/union. They are alike.

[The hairy bear]

I said he was burnt as well, to subtly point out the underlying hypocrisy of the poster without being argumentative, for the man is burned.

As the "underlying hypocrite", perhaps I should start by stating the obvious and say that I don't consider that having a scarred or unattractive wive can't be used as am ethical justification to cheat on her.

I just wanted to point out that, generally, ugly people tend to prefer beautiful people than ugly people like themselves. And I don't think it's anything inherently wrong with that. :)

And what if she's really scarred? The argument becomes less shitty?

The main argument was that the marriage was political. The scarring issue is only a plus. And the fact that he's also scarred would also add to the argument rather than detract from it: once they've produced a healthy amount of heirs, why would you force them to continue being sexually active if they physically dislike each other? ;)

We can't judge their marriage with current standards. In our medieval times many couples stopped having sex after having some children due to the high risk of dying in childbirth, and we know of noble women who personally choose their husband's lovers.

[Moondancer]

I appreciate your response, the hairy bear. Shall we agree then that the post execution was poor? :) (It reads terribly.)

[The hairy bear]

Sure! :cheers:

[Acnologia Targaryen]

honestly it wouldn't surprise me if he did. Heck i think Rhaenys knew corlys stepped out on her too, but as long as he didn't show his bastard in her face or disrespect her she was cool. I imagine baela her grand daughter and daemon's daughter expects these things from men.

[belladeuil]

Well, if Alyn Velaryon did stray from Baela, I suppose she could stray from him too. She is Lord Corlys's granddaughter and Prince Daemon's daughter after all...