A Foppish Youth in soiled Satin

[Ygrain]

Interesting observations. I didn't realize we have been given such a lot of hints towards Oldtown and Hightowers.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This could be one of the cases in which a theory has born by simply matching similar words... but I like it :P

Just two things: maybe.... and I'm risking a lot with this maaaaybeee... Satin's grace and prettiness isn't due to him being a boy prostitute but being noble born. Why is he posing as a former prostitute? No idea. OTOH, if he is indeed a prostitute and he is Baelor's son, how did he ended up in a brothel? Wouldn't Baelor have taken him home to raise? Or send him to Oldtown to be educated?

[Ygrain]

Methinks... what if daddy Hightower found out that his son was gay, and gave him Sam's choice? I just wonder about his restraint when he dances just with serving girls and doesn't dare to approach a lady, that sounds rather like someone of low birth trained to move in a better society, or pretending to be of lower origin.

[bemused]

I started a thread about Satin over a year ago in the ADWD forum , but my thoughts have solidified since then, so I thought the time might be ripe for a more in-depth version.

I think there's reason to SUSPECT that Satin may be the bastard of Baelor Hightower , Lord Leyton's heir.

It was GRRM's use of "pretty" and then "Oldtown" that first began to resonate for me. ... There are not many men besides Satin,across all 5 novels ,who are referred to as "pretty" - Jaime , Loras and Marillion .. young Bael Hightower (by Oberyn ), Archibald Yronwood ( by Daario ) and Aegon is a "pretty princeling" in the mind of Tyrion.

There's one more coming , that I know of, offhand - Raff the Sweetling in the "Mercy" chapter.

On only three occasions that I've found, Jon notes (in a matter-of-fact way) that Satin is pretty.

1) ...in his description of Satin in the four quotes given down-page..

2) ..Jon kicked the trapdoor shut, set the heavy iron kettle on top of it, and gave the boy with the pretty face a hard shake. “Retch later,” Jon yelled. “Come.” .. (ASoS)

3) ...Satin was loosing quarrels at the wildlings on the steps, then ducking down behind a merlon to cock the crossbow. He may be pretty, but he’s quick. .. (ASoS)

That's it. (Still, that seems unusual) ... Some take it as evidence that Jon is attracted to Satin, but I've come to think it's simply GRRM's way of reminding us of the fact that he is pretty, thus inviting us to perhaps compare or connect Satin with any of the other "pretty" men. ... In checking to see whether Jon called any other man pretty, or if any other character did .. and whether any of those characters could be similar to Satin in any way, one obvious commonality crops up - Satin and Baelor have Oldtown in common.

According to the wiki , Hightower and Oldtown can be, in some respects, synonymous : Members of the house are considered loyal and stalwart. The Hightowers can be legitimately referred to as being either "of Hightower" or "of Oldtown.".. (source : The Arryns and the Hightower, May 1999. So Spake Martin. )

In the text, GRRM goes out of his way to hammer it home to the reader that Satin and Oldtown should be inextricably linked . Between ASoS and ADWD , Oldtown is mentioned in conjunction with Satin no less than 12 times.. sometimes it comes as.. Satin - "from a brothel in Oldtown" .. sometimes it's "who had been a whore in Oldtown " ... but sometimes it's just "the boy from Oldtown" , or "the Oldtown boy". Of all the things we're told about Satin - whore, pretty, quick, sweet-voiced, graceful , etc. - what we're told most often , again and again, is that he's from Oldtown... Obviously , he's "of Oldtown" in the sense that he hails from there, but might he be "of Oldtown" in the "Hightower" sense?

Here are the 4 quotes that first stood out to me when I started that earlier thread...

1)... The only one who was even halfway presentable was young Baelor Hightower. A pretty lad, and my sister was half in love with him until he had the misfortune to fart once in our presence. I promptly named him Baelor Breakwind, and after that Elia couldn’t look at him without laughing. I was a monstrous young fellow, someone should have sliced out my vile tongue.”

Yes, Tyrion agreed silently. Baelor Hightower was no longer young, but he remained Lord Leyton’s heir; wealthy, handsome, and a knight of splendid repute. Baelor Brightsmile, they called him now. (ASoS)

2)... The boy claimed to be eighteen, older than Jon, but he was green as summer grass for all that. Satin, they called him, even in the wool and mail and boiled leather of the Night’s Watch; the name he’d gotten in the brothel where he’d been born and raised. He was pretty as a girl with his dark eyes, soft skin, and raven’s ringlets. Half a year at Castle Black had toughened up his hands, however, and Noye said he was passable with a crossbow.Whether he had the courage to face what was coming, though... (ASoS)

So far, "pretty" and Oldtown" are only slight clues ...but during the attacks by Styr, and Mance, he displays courage in spite of his fear and a growing proficiency with weapons ( beginning to show ability as a fighter)... and the subtle clues continue to accumulate...

3)... The turtle had a rounded top and eight huge wheels, and under the hides was a stout wooden frame. When the wildlings had begun knocking it together, Satin thought they were building a ship. Not far wrong. The turtle was a hull turned upside down and opened fore and aft; a longhall on wheels. (ASoS)

4)... “The Hightower must be doing something.”

“To be sure. Lord Leyton’s locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells. Might be he’ll raise an army from the deeps. Or not. Baelor’s building galleys, Gunthor has charge of the harbor, (AFfC)

I wouldn't rule out that Satin has seen something of shipbuilding, perhaps at close hand.

Now, I'd like to look at our very first introduction to Satin...

.... Ser Endrew Tarth was working with some raw recruits. ...This new crop consisted of a greybeard leaning on a staff, two blond boys with the look of brothers, a foppish youth in soiled satin, a raggy man with a clubfoot, and some grinning loon who must have fancied himself a warrior. ....

.... “Where did Conwy find them?”

“A lord’s dungeon near Gulltown,” the smith (Noye) replied. “A brigand, a barber, a beggar, two orphans, and a boy whore. With such do we defend the realms of men.”

“They’ll do.” Jon gave Sam a private smile. “We did.” (ACoK)

We aren't told his name at this point, but looking back at this scene, there are some things I think deserve considering. ... The word "satin" is used very often by GRRM , usually in describing the sumptuous attire or furnishings of the nobility, the very wealthy, or someone of elite status (e.g.,Mel) ... and "foppish" doesn't necessarily denote homosexuality (though it's always tempting to fall into that cliche) - it might equally be applied to someone who has led a sheltered , pampered, or even courtly existence. If "satin" is meant to suggest nobilty or something like it , "in soiled satin" could imply that he's been disgraced in some way (or perhaps just that he's a noble bastard).

We never hear Satin refer to growing up in a brothel. .. He was given to the watch by whatever "lord near Gulltown" had him in his dungeon. Donal Noye says he's "a boy whore" , but he's just repeating / reporting what Conwy told him, and that might have come from the lord who'd imprisoned him ( and we never hear what he was imprisoned for). ...Mind you, we never hear Satin deny it either .. and wouldn't he deny it if it wasn't true?... Well, maybe not, if he felt it would shame his family, or if he had been engaged on some political mission for someone that he didn't want to reveal. ... If he is connected to the Hightowers, remember their reputation of being stalwart and loyal.

Jon thinks he got his name in the brothel he was raised in, in Oldtown , but that might be a cover story... and we don't really know if Satin confirmed that to him or not.

Here are a number of things that could be misleading..

..the Oldtown boy wandered restlessly around the parapets, fussing with the clothes on straw men. Maybe he thinks they will fight better if they’re posed just right. Or maybe this waiting is fraying his nerves the way it’s fraying mine. (ASoS) ... Either or both of Jon's guesses could be true. But we do know that Satin is nervous and anxious before his first battle.

The snowflakes were melting on her (Alys Karstark's) cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, ADWD ... Satin probably got the lace through one of Selyse's servants ( I doubt it can have been his), and the Stewards (plural) had been tasked by Jon to produce the wedding cloaks. ... Jon told the stewards to improvise. He thought they had

done well. (ADWD)

Those bows were dangerous. Satin had torn off half his thumbnail on a bowstring. (AFfC) ...This is Sam's thought , Sam, who felt a bit faint when the raven pecked him, drawing blood. ...We've no reason to think Satin was much distressed by it. ( Except , it would fit the foppish cliche.) It conjures up a "girlish" picture (oooh, I broke a nail - which is another cliche itself).

And here are some that (to me) suggest a noble environment rather than a brothel ( If a brothel, it would have been very high class indeed )...

Jon’s rooms behind the armory were quiet enough, if not especially warm. His fire had gone out some time ago; Satin was not as diligent in feeding it as Dolorous Edd had been. (ADWD) ... I don't see this as a lack of diligence ; we see Satin light the fire , help Marsh & co. into their cloaks , and this, e.g...

Satin had his horse saddled and bridled and waiting for him, a fiery grey courser with a mane as black and shiny as maester’s ink. He was not the sort of mount that Jon would have chosen for a ranging, but on this morning all that mattered was that he look impressive, and for that the stallion was a perfect choice. (ADWD) ... Satin displays an ability to choose the right horse for the purpose, including awareness of making a political statement.

Satin was all grace, dancing with three serving girls in turn but never presuming to approach a highborn lady. ...ADWD... "Satin was all grace" speaks to me more of courtliness, than anything else. It's goes beyond just knowing how to dance .. and a whore might not have his sensibility in knowing who to approach . After all, clients come to brothels to be approached.

One thing Satin says, himself, is.. ".. I knew a girl in Oldtown who liked to ice her wine. That’s the best place for ice, I think. In wine...” (ASoS)

... I don't think , given Oldtown's location, that anyone but the elite could have afforded to ice their wine. It would have to be trekked a good long way. (They've been in a 10 yr. summer.) .. and note that it's a girl he knew , not a woman or a man , so she would have been very unlikely to be a client. ... Satin doesn't mention it as if it's something a whore was once treated to, but as if it's something the girl enjoys frequently , habitually, and he seems to be familiar with the practice himself.

And there's this very interesting reference to nobility in Oldtown brothels...

Sad to say, the three would-be informers proved no more useful than the Tyroshi. One said that the Imp was hiding in an Oldtown brothel, pleasuring men with his mouth. It made for a droll picture, but Cersei did not believe it for an instant. (AFfC) ... Odd that it should be an Oldtown brothel ... perhaps we should take a page from Cersei's book, and not swallow the report of Satin's background whole.

One other strange thing that takes us back to "of Oldtown". Mance tells Jon...

The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. (ASoS)

While Symon Silver Tongue tells Tyrion...

"... seven singers. Galyeon of Cuy, Bethany Fair-fingers, Aemon Costayne, Alaric of Eysen, Hamish the Harper, Collio Quaynis, and Orland of Oldtown will compete for a gilded lute with silver strings..." (ASoS)

And Jon notes in ADWD..

“Night gathers, and now my watch begins,” they said, as thousands had said before them. Satin’s voice was sweet as song ...

I think it's quite likely that Orland's "of Oldtown" is synonymous with "of Hightower"... Hightower has really taken a back seat, politically, since bending the knee to Robert , but I doubt any of us think they've been doing nothing. ("The Hightower must be doing something") ... We know Mance found the role of singer very useful in keeping tabs on what's going on politically. Orland may be doing the same. ... That Satin from / of Oldtown's voice is sweet as song while speaking his vow, may link him to Orland as well.

If Satin is a Hightower , I think it may show a developing loyalty to Jon that he took his oath before a heart tree and it would be a satisfying irony if he carves out a place for himself, and comes to feel comfortable in the north, after the following Hightower opinion...

...she (Lynesse Hightower) had confessed to Catelyn that the north was no place for a Hightower of Oldtown. ASoS

I think this is all enough to justify my supicion , until proof arrives, one way or another. I'm seeing it in a way that leans in favour of Satin's friendship and support of Jon , but I know certain things could lend themselves to an anti-Jon interpretation. .. Since this is already long, maybe we can discuss those as we go ahead.

(If you like...)

[aryagonnakill#2]

You clearly put a lot of time and effort into this so I will respond. I think you really reached on this, I mean nothing in the thread really made me go "wow how could I miss that". Its entirely possible, but I just don't think there's anything to the theory.

Edit: That being said, if your correct you sure get a nice big "TOLD YOU SO!"

[CJ McLannister]

It's interesting, and even a little bit plausible. I think, in general, people are a little too eager to apply some significance to Satin. The most likely explanation is that he is exactly what he appears to be. A man-whore from Oldtown. If he is a Hightower bastard... so what? Why does that matter? Will anyone ever find out or care?

[bemused]

You clearly put a lot of time and effort into this so I will respond. I think you really reached on this, I mean nothing in the thread really made me go "wow how could I miss that". Its entirely possible, but I just don't think there's anything to the theory.

Edit: That being said, if your correct you sure get a nice big "TOLD YOU SO!"

:) Yeah, that's why I said it's enough for a suspicion.. as opposed to a full blown theory.

Of course, Satin is far from a major character.

I suppose my interest in him developed out of my obsession with trying to understand what exactly was going on in Jon's last ADWD chapter - who is allied with whom - who played a part in setting Jon up for the assassination attempt, and so on.

At the same time, I think a lot is going to be revealed about the political scene in Oldtown through Sam's future POVs - what the Maesters are up to - what the Hightowers are up to, among other things.

The Hightowers are currently allied to the Tyrells, but with the return of "Aegon" and eventually Daenerys , what will they do, considering their historic close association with the Targaryens ? ...And if / when Jon's bloodlines are revealed, will that make a difference to them ?

Rickard Stark's Maester was reportedly the son of a Hightower girl and a Citadel maester (wiki, house Hightower) and supposedly, was the instigator and promoter of Rickard's "southron ambitions". If so , was Walys pushing a Citadel agenda or a separate Hightower agenda ? Or both ?

From a magical perspective, what's up with Lord Leyton and the Mad Maid ? What do they know, or believe ? ... Lynesse said the north was "no place for a Hightower of Oldtown" ... but should it be ?

If Satin is connected to the Hightowers, he may eventually prove integral to their side of the story. Otherwise , it's like a twisted version of Whack-a-Mole ... almost every time Satin pokes his nose out , GRRM whacks us with "Oldtown".

To my knowledge, he's never done this with any other character of similar (apparent) importance.

[Pod The Impaler]

.... “Where did Conwy find them?”

“A lord’s dungeon near Gulltown,” the smith (Noye) replied. “A brigand, a barber, a beggar, two orphans, and a boy whore. With such do we defend the realms of men.”

“They’ll do.” Jon gave Sam a private smile. “We did.” (ACoK)

We aren't told his name at this point, but looking back at this scene, there are some things I think deserve considering. ... The word "satin" is used very often by GRRM , usually in describing the sumptuous attire or furnishings of the nobility, the very wealthy, or someone of elite status (e.g.,Mel) ... and "foppish" doesn't necessarily denote homosexuality (though it's always tempting to fall into that cliche) - it might equally be applied to someone who has led a sheltered , pampered, or even courtly existence. If "satin" is meant to suggest nobilty or something like it , "in soiled satin" could imply that he's been disgraced in some way (or perhaps just that he's a noble bastard).

We never hear Satin refer to growing up in a brothel. .. He was given to the watch by whatever "lord near Gulltown" had him in his dungeon. Donal Noye says he's "a boy whore" , but he's just repeating / reporting what Conwy told him, and that might have come from the lord who'd imprisoned him ( and we never hear what he was imprisoned for). ...Mind you, we never hear Satin deny it either .. and wouldn't he deny it if it wasn't true?... Well, maybe not, if he felt it would shame his family, or if he had been engaged on some political mission for someone that he didn't want to reveal. ... If he is connected to the Hightowers, remember their reputation of being stalwart and loyal.

And here are some that (to me) suggest a noble environment rather than a brothel ( If a brothel, it would have been very high class indeed )...

Well, if you're interested in proving a Hightower connection to the boy, how about this one ? If Satin is a Hightower bastard, perhaps we should look to Lynesse, if Jorah were not her first man.

But Oldtown is probably crawling with Hightower bastards and their descendants, who have their look.

However, let me a different spin here, the one to do with Gulltown:

There is a certain noble of the Vale who has a famous taste for 3 things "Gold, boys, and killing."

Perhaps Satin was once a plaything of Lyn Corbray. Special delivery from Lord Baelish to one of his favourite murderous thugs allies - and included in that is also disposal to the Watch once the boy's usefulness has expired. Might also explain how Satin has some uncommon grace and manners, as well as his other *ahem* training.

[bemused]

Pod.. Yep. I took my own earlier thread a bit sideways by musing on the alternative Lynesse possibilities, until some kind soul saved me by pointing out that the timeline wouldn't really work...

But yes, the Gulltown / Corbray possibility is interesting, though there are no other hints (yet) leading in that direction that I know of... and would that connection have implications for the twins, as well ?

ETA:

Lord Commander

Runcel Hightower attempted to leave the Watch to his bastard son some five hundred years ago. - TWoIaF , p. 146

...This little quote resonates with a few topics , including this one - perhaps just in the idea of a Hightower bastard being on a leadership path at the Wall ... but maybe some historic Hightower agenda coming around a second time .

[Sanset]

I think there's reason to SUSPECT that Satin may be the bastard of Baelor Hightower , Lord Leyton's heir.

I really like this theory!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I haven't paid a lot of attention to Satin quite frankly. But now that you've pointed it out is looks cool and reasonable. The Hightowers are up to something, that's for sure, so we get another Hightower character in the North, that could be awesome. Actually, I still have a lot of curiosity about that weirwood Isle of Ravens in the Citadel… And those sphinxes and words: "We Light the Way". I would be surprised if the Hightowers remain a hidden mystery after book seven. It is all set up for a fantastic story.

ETA:

I also like the theory because of the implications. Robert said in AGot that Rhaegar raped Lyanna hundreds of times. Followed by that "I don't think so" Eddard's reaction. The point is some people know of the possibility of a baby. And so curiously honor-freak Eddard appears with a baby, in the right time and the right place. Someone might be uncertain no matter what (no so honor-freak after all) Ned says. I guess some control-freak people might want to take a look, do a little bit of investigation. If we have another sign of the Hightowers meddling in the Northerners business it's got to be major. Love it!

[Buried Treasure]

If Satin were a noble bastard well treated enough to be around wealthy items like satin, wouldn't he be more noble-like? Raised with noble skills and education or at least trained to be martial, for a future as a knight or member of a household guard?

That he is 'foppish' makes him seem less likely to have a noble connection to me, and more certain he was raised in a high class brothel.

[bemused]

Well, foppish just means someone ( perhaps overly) concerned with their clothes and appearance. A dandy. I say perhaps overly concerned , because how he was perceived would depend on who was perceiving him... what is foppish to the NW might not be so foppish in Oldtown.

There are still ambiguities about Satin .. and of course, he might have been raised in a high class brothel and still be a Hightower bastard. Baelor is married to Rhonda Rowan, but we don't know if they have any children... Out of all Baelor's siblings we only know of sis Alerie's children with Mace Tyrell and sis Denyse's children with Desmond Redwyne... We don't know if Rhonda or any other Hightower wives would look any more kindly on their husbands' bastards than Cat did ... and maybe less.

There could be a wide range of possibilities between the way Jon was raised and say, Gendry.. It doesn't seem like Satin was raised with any idea of becoming a knight... but he may be able to read and write better than he lets on.

[Jon Flowers]

I've always found Satin's origin suspicious. He clearly shows a knowledge of etiquette, dance, etc. that would be out of place in all but the most high class of establishments and even then, how does one explain his literacy? In Kingslanding, the daughter of the Madame in the cities best brothel is teaching herself to read in her spare time it's true, but this seems more due to her special status than anything else. I think child protitutes being taught courtly manners and literacy is more than passing strange and it has always made me suspicious of Satin's true history. I don't however see any hint of what his family background may be beyond the vague notion of "noble".

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Satin is either the son of Walis the maester or the son of Brandon Stark . Why ? Attractive , had some schooling , even though from the Reach and claims to serve the Seven he took his oath in the weirwoods ,age is about right .

[the conquering bastard 25]

I started a thread about Satin over a year ago in the ADWD forum , but my thoughts have solidified since then, so I thought the time might be ripe for a more in-depth version.

I think there's reason to SUSPECT that Satin may be the bastard of Baelor Hightower , Lord Leyton's heir.

It was GRRM's use of "pretty" and then "Oldtown" that first began to resonate for me. ... There are not many men besides Satin,across all 5 novels ,who are referred to as "pretty" - Jaime , Loras and Marillion .. young Bael Hightower (by Oberyn ), Archibald Yronwood ( by Daario ) and Aegon is a "pretty princeling" in the mind of Tyrion.

There's one more coming , that I know of, offhand - Raff the Sweetling in the "Mercy" chapter.

On only three occasions that I've found, Jon notes (in a matter-of-fact way) that Satin is pretty.

1) ...in his description of Satin in the four quotes given down-page..

2) ..Jon kicked the trapdoor shut, set the heavy iron kettle on top of it, and gave the boy with the pretty face a hard shake. Retch later, Jon yelled. Come. .. (ASoS)

3) ...Satin was loosing quarrels at the wildlings on the steps, then ducking down behind a merlon to cock the crossbow. He may be pretty, but hes quick. .. (ASoS)

That's it. (Still, that seems unusual) ... Some take it as evidence that Jon is attracted to Satin, but I've come to think it's simply GRRM's way of reminding us of the fact that he is pretty, thus inviting us to perhaps compare or connect Satin with any of the other "pretty" men. ... In checking to see whether Jon called any other man pretty, or if any other character did .. and whether any of those characters could be similar to Satin in any way, one obvious commonality crops up - Satin and Baelor have Oldtown in common.

According to the wiki , Hightower and Oldtown can be, in some respects, synonymous : Members of the house are considered loyal and stalwart. The Hightowers can be legitimately referred to as being either "of Hightower" or "of Oldtown.".. (source : The Arryns and the Hightower, May 1999. So Spake Martin. )

In the text, GRRM goes out of his way to hammer it home to the reader that Satin and Oldtown should be inextricably linked . Between ASoS and ADWD , Oldtown is mentioned in conjunction with Satin no less than 12 times.. sometimes it comes as.. Satin - "from a brothel in Oldtown" .. sometimes it's "who had been a whore in Oldtown " ... but sometimes it's just "the boy from Oldtown" , or "the Oldtown boy". Of all the things we're told about Satin - whore, pretty, quick, sweet-voiced, graceful , etc. - what we're told most often , again and again, is that he's from Oldtown... Obviously , he's "of Oldtown" in the sense that he hails from there, but might he be "of Oldtown" in the "Hightower" sense?

Here are the 4 quotes that first stood out to me when I started that earlier thread...

1)... The only one who was even halfway presentable was young Baelor Hightower. A pretty lad, and my sister was half in love with him until he had the misfortune to fart once in our presence. I promptly named him Baelor Breakwind, and after that Elia couldnt look at him without laughing. I was a monstrous young fellow, someone should have sliced out my vile tongue.

Yes, Tyrion agreed silently. Baelor Hightower was no longer young, but he remained Lord Leytons heir; wealthy, handsome, and a knight of splendid repute. Baelor Brightsmile, they called him now. (ASoS)

2)... The boy claimed to be eighteen, older than Jon, but he was green as summer grass for all that. Satin, they called him, even in the wool and mail and boiled leather of the Nights Watch; the name hed gotten in the brothel where hed been born and raised. He was pretty as a girl with his dark eyes, soft skin, and ravens ringlets. Half a year at Castle Black had toughened up his hands, however, and Noye said he was passable with a crossbow.Whether he had the courage to face what was coming, though... (ASoS)

So far, "pretty" and Oldtown" are only slight clues ...but during the attacks by Styr, and Mance, he displays courage in spite of his fear and a growing proficiency with weapons ( beginning to show ability as a fighter)... and the subtle clues continue to accumulate...

3)... The turtle had a rounded top and eight huge wheels, and under the hides was a stout wooden frame. When the wildlings had begun knocking it together, Satin thought they were building a ship. Not far wrong. The turtle was a hull turned upside down and opened fore and aft; a longhall on wheels. (ASoS)

4)... The Hightower must be doing something.

To be sure. Lord Leytons locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells. Might be hell raise an army from the deeps. Or not. Baelors building galleys, Gunthor has charge of the harbor, (AFfC)

I wouldn't rule out that Satin has seen something of shipbuilding, perhaps at close hand.

Now, I'd like to look at our very first introduction to Satin...

.... Ser Endrew Tarth was working with some raw recruits. ...This new crop consisted of a greybeard leaning on a staff, two blond boys with the look of brothers, a foppish youth in soiled satin, a raggy man with a clubfoot, and some grinning loon who must have fancied himself a warrior. ....

.... Where did Conwy find them?

A lords dungeon near Gulltown, the smith (Noye) replied. A brigand, a barber, a beggar, two orphans, and a boy whore. With such do we defend the realms of men.

Theyll do. Jon gave Sam a private smile. We did. (ACoK)

We aren't told his name at this point, but looking back at this scene, there are some things I think deserve considering. ... The word "satin" is used very often by GRRM , usually in describing the sumptuous attire or furnishings of the nobility, the very wealthy, or someone of elite status (e.g.,Mel) ... and "foppish" doesn't necessarily denote homosexuality (though it's always tempting to fall into that cliche) - it might equally be applied to someone who has led a sheltered , pampered, or even courtly existence. If "satin" is meant to suggest nobilty or something like it , "in soiled satin" could imply that he's been disgraced in some way (or perhaps just that he's a noble bastard).

We never hear Satin refer to growing up in a brothel. .. He was given to the watch by whatever "lord near Gulltown" had him in his dungeon. Donal Noye says he's "a boy whore" , but he's just repeating / reporting what Conwy told him, and that might have come from the lord who'd imprisoned him ( and we never hear what he was imprisoned for). ...Mind you, we never hear Satin deny it either .. and wouldn't he deny it if it wasn't true?... Well, maybe not, if he felt it would shame his family, or if he had been engaged on some political mission for someone that he didn't want to reveal. ... If he is connected to the Hightowers, remember their reputation of being stalwart and loyal.

Jon thinks he got his name in the brothel he was raised in, in Oldtown , but that might be a cover story... and we don't really know if Satin confirmed that to him or not.

Here are a number of things that could be misleading..

..the Oldtown boy wandered restlessly around the parapets, fussing with the clothes on straw men. Maybe he thinks they will fight better if theyre posed just right. Or maybe this waiting is fraying his nerves the way its fraying mine. (ASoS) ... Either or both of Jon's guesses could be true. But we do know that Satin is nervous and anxious before his first battle.

The snowflakes were melting on her (Alys Karstark's) cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, ADWD ... Satin probably got the lace through one of Selyse's servants ( I doubt it can have been his), and the Stewards (plural) had been tasked by Jon to produce the wedding cloaks. ... Jon told the stewards to improvise. He thought they had

done well. (ADWD)

Those bows were dangerous. Satin had torn off half his thumbnail on a bowstring. (AFfC) ...This is Sam's thought , Sam, who felt a bit faint when the raven pecked him, drawing blood. ...We've no reason to think Satin was much distressed by it. ( Except , it would fit the foppish cliche.) It conjures up a "girlish" picture (oooh, I broke a nail - which is another cliche itself).

And here are some that (to me) suggest a noble environment rather than a brothel ( If a brothel, it would have been very high class indeed )...

Jons rooms behind the armory were quiet enough, if not especially warm. His fire had gone out some time ago; Satin was not as diligent in feeding it as Dolorous Edd had been. (ADWD) ... I don't see this as a lack of diligence ; we see Satin light the fire , help Marsh & co. into their cloaks , and this, e.g...

Satin had his horse saddled and bridled and waiting for him, a fiery grey courser with a mane as black and shiny as maesters ink. He was not the sort of mount that Jon would have chosen for a ranging, but on this morning all that mattered was that he look impressive, and for that the stallion was a perfect choice. (ADWD) ... Satin displays an ability to choose the right horse for the purpose, including awareness of making a political statement.

Satin was all grace, dancing with three serving girls in turn but never presuming to approach a highborn lady. ...ADWD... "Satin was all grace" speaks to me more of courtliness, than anything else. It's goes beyond just knowing how to dance .. and a whore might not have his sensibility in knowing who to approach . After all, clients come to brothels to be approached.

One thing Satin says, himself, is.. ".. I knew a girl in Oldtown who liked to ice her wine. Thats the best place for ice, I think. In wine... (ASoS)

... I don't think , given Oldtown's location, that anyone but the elite could have afforded to ice their wine. It would have to be trekked a good long way. (They've been in a 10 yr. summer.) .. and note that it's a girl he knew , not a woman or a man , so she would have been very unlikely to be a client. ... Satin doesn't mention it as if it's something a whore was once treated to, but as if it's something the girl enjoys frequently , habitually, and he seems to be familiar with the practice himself.

And there's this very interesting reference to nobility in Oldtown brothels...

Sad to say, the three would-be informers proved no more useful than the Tyroshi. One said that the Imp was hiding in an Oldtown brothel, pleasuring men with his mouth. It made for a droll picture, but Cersei did not believe it for an instant. (AFfC) ... Odd that it should be an Oldtown brothel ... perhaps we should take a page from Cersei's book, and not swallow the report of Satin's background whole.

One other strange thing that takes us back to "of Oldtown". Mance tells Jon...

The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. (ASoS)

While Symon Silver Tongue tells Tyrion...

"... seven singers. Galyeon of Cuy, Bethany Fair-fingers, Aemon Costayne, Alaric of Eysen, Hamish the Harper, Collio Quaynis, and Orland of Oldtown will compete for a gilded lute with silver strings..." (ASoS)

And Jon notes in ADWD..

Night gathers, and now my watch begins, they said, as thousands had said before them. Satins voice was sweet as song ...

I think it's quite likely that Orland's "of Oldtown" is synonymous with "of Hightower"... Hightower has really taken a back seat, politically, since bending the knee to Robert , but I doubt any of us think they've been doing nothing. ("The Hightower must be doing something") ... We know Mance found the role of singer very useful in keeping tabs on what's going on politically. Orland may be doing the same. ... That Satin from / of Oldtown's voice is sweet as song while speaking his vow, may link him to Orland as well.

If Satin is a Hightower , I think it may show a developing loyalty to Jon that he took his oath before a heart tree and it would be a satisfying irony if he carves out a place for himself, and comes to feel comfortable in the north, after the following Hightower opinion...

...she (Lynesse Hightower) had confessed to Catelyn that the north was no place for a Hightower of Oldtown. ASoS

I think this is all enough to justify my supicion , until proof arrives, one way or another. I'm seeing it in a way that leans in favour of Satin's friendship and support of Jon , but I know certain things could lend themselves to an anti-Jon interpretation. .. Since this is already long, maybe we can discuss those as we go ahead.

(If you like...)

While I like your evidence and everything but there's some things that you missed.

Satin is noble born, raised to fill a certain role and the answer is right under our nose.

Satin is Leywn Martell bastard. The age is right, his mother was a beautiful courtesan and his very birth would have soiled his father's name.

Think about it Obyrena is pissed at the Hightowers so much so she wants to make Oldtown her fathers funeral pyre.

Then what is an old town whore doing in the dungeons all the way in the Vale, he's a long way from home. He can read and write, hes better at swordplay than he let on and he acts as a noble who is playing the past or a peasant, look at the way he talks definitely not base born.

Then there is the widows peak, the Martelle are the house that has such, both Nymeria,Adrianne and Obyren have them along with long spiral curly black hair the same as Satin.

Him being raised in Old town would have been a boon between brothers of the KG.

[Ygrain]

Huh? Some forum hex made me an author of this thread?

[Ser Leftwich]

Satin could act a very good body double for Jon. If say, someone needs a dead body that looks enough like Jon to pass off, Satin would be a good candidate.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Satin could act a very good body double for Jon. If say, someone needs a dead body that looks enough like Jon to pass off, Satin would be a good candidate.

That's a good observation...

Huh? Some forum hex made me an author of this thread?

I think this was a double topic before and got mixed up.

[bemused]

I'll have to report this again.. There was a glitch ( probably mine) that duplicated the thread ..both had replies. I asked them to amalgamate, but they added to the top of the thread ,not the bottom .. so the OP is at post #4... :dunno:

[Hrafntýr]

Huh? Some forum hex made me an author of this thread?

Lol, it didn't really seem like your usual style of OP! I figured I was just too thick to get some sort of deep implication of the title thread and read properly between the lines. bemused has explained the issue: post 4 is the OP!