Double Standards: Who, How, and Why

[The Squisher Queen]

Here are a few more for consumption:

Sansa vs. Arianne: Both act behind their father's backs with decidedly negative consequences. Is it just the age difference that has us cutting Sansa more slack?

Catelyn vs. Rickard Karstark: One's a you-know-what. The other's a grieving father who deserves his vengeance. Discuss.

I cut Sansa more slack because she is young, but also she's Ned's daughter. He tries to shield her from the grimness of the world and that sort of backfired. She thought Cersei was someone she could trust.

Ariannae is older and though her dad kept his plans secret, she wasn't so naive when it came to the world. Even if she succeded in crowning Myrcella, she still put her danger and put others in danger if a war started because of it. She has every right to be bitter at the thought of being passed over for her brother simply because she's female, but working out that anger by crowning a sister over her brother and endangering innocent lives is not the way to go.

So Sansa acted out of innocense, innocense that Ned made efforts to safeguard, and Arianne used innocents to act out her own bitterness, I think. There was some actual malice behind Arianne's actions.

[mcbigski]

I completely agree.

Jaime, in particular, went from saint to sinner, it seemed, largely on the basis of a few one-liners.

If we find out that Aerys II was Westeros' version of Henny Youngman, I suppose we'll laugh off his atrocities, as well.

The reason Jaime is considered OK by my is from his POVs. It's a pretty powerful image when he's thinking about earning the Jaime Goldenhand moniker in place of Kingslayer and especially when he realizes that he can still write the rest of his story in the White Book. The reader knows that he's grown up, even if all of Westeros still sees him as having shit for honor. Initially in ASoS I came to like Jaime's wit, but once he tells Tywin once and for all that he won't take the Rock and will simply do his duty, he becomes worth rooting for.

[Lightsnake]

Not really. She's the one who asks Barristan to start telling her the truth.

ASoS, USPB, p. 992.

"'Was my father truly mad?' she blurted out. Why do I ask that? 'Viserys said this talk of madness was a plot of the Usurper's. . .'"

[barristan tells her that he feels Aerys II always had a little bit of madness in him, but that his lapses began growing more frequent. Here's how the convo ends. Barristan has already told her that Aerys was, in fact, mad. Perceptive old gent that he is, he seems about to fill her in on some pretty grisly details.]

"Dany stopped him. 'Do I want to hear this now?'

Ser Barristan considered a moment. 'Perhaps not. Not now.'

'Not now,' she agreed. 'One day. One day you must tell me all. The good and the bad.'"

Again, Dany hasn't been reading the series. All she's heard is what Viserys had to tell her. Do you think he painted a very nice picture of Ser Barristan? Is she supposed to throw him a party? You also seem to be ignoring the fact that she ended up accepting him into her service and listening to what he had to say. Does her saying a few harsh things cancel that out?

Again, the concept of "justly deposed" seems a bit lame here. In both instances there's going to be a lot of blood shed, little of it done by the ones who actually have a grievance or who stand to benefit.

That's a great point.

To me, one of the most poignant moments in the first book, was when Varys points out to Ned how many innocents suffer when the high lords decide to play their game of thrones. That point only hits home with Ned when the potential peril of an innocent he knows and loves, Sansa,

is brought to his attention.

Again, a lot of food for thought there. Seen in that light, a lot of actions can be viewed very, very differently.

One day. She does cut him off. And Barristan had just saved her life when he could have easily allowed her to be killed by Mero. oing further from that, Aerys was completely insane, the whole realm knew it. As far as anyone knew, his son was kidnapping and raping maidens while Aerys was slaughtering and torturing hundreds of people for no reason.

Aerys deserved to be toppled from the throne. What'd the Starks do that puts them on the level of despotism with the Targaryens?

[oba]

One day. She does cut him off.

After she welcomed Barristan in her service, Dany actually retires for the evening. Barristan's the one who comes by and starts the conversation. He picks that moment (the end of a pretty long, emotionally draining day) to decide that Dany should be privy to the truth.

And Barristan had just saved her life when he could have easily allowed her to be killed by Mero.

Considering he was there to pledge her his service, that would have been a rather bizarre move.

Going further from that, Aerys was completely insane, the whole realm knew it. As far as anyone knew, his son was kidnapping and raping maidens while Aerys was slaughtering and torturing hundreds of people for no reason.

From the standpoint of the smallfolk, Aerys gave them 20 years of peace and plenty. It's the high lords who were screaming bloody murder.

Aerys deserved to be toppled from the throne.

In the opinion of the Starks, Arryns, and Baratheons. In the view of the Tyrells and Martells he didn't. The Greyjoys don't seem to have cared all that much. The Tullys came round to that way of thinking after it was clear that Ned would marry Cat in Brandon's place and that Jon would marry Lysa. Plenty of other Houses stayed out of it completely. There was a war. There was not a unanimity of opinion on the need to depose Aerys. Rhaegar even had the bigger army at the Trident.

Remember the description of the Trident in one of Brienne's POV chapters. Do you think too many of the guys doing the fighting on either side had a strong opinion about Aerys one way or the other?

[Slinx]

In the opinion of the Starks, Arryns, and Baratheons. In the view of the Tyrells and Martells he didn't. The Greyjoys don't seem to have cared all that much. The Tullys came round to that way of thinking after it was clear that Ned would marry Cat in Brandon's place and that Jon would marry Lysa. Plenty of other Houses stayed out of it completely. There was a war. There was not a unanimity of opinion on the need to depose Aerys. Rhaegar even had the bigger army at the Trident.

Yes, the people who prospered under Aerys and didn't have their heirs/house heads killed would indeed support such a nut. Martells were going to end up on the throne after, so all in all I'd put down their 'keeping the faith' as a weak defense.

What'd the Starks do that puts them on the level of despotism with the Targaryens?

What's your answer on that?

[EHK for Darwin]

I don't think Barristan or any other Kingsguard is qualified to pass much of an opinion on Aerys. For Jamie to be told not to judge Aerys for raping his wife shows that ignoring the King's sins is a passed down event. They can't reflect too badly on the king's actions because it shows how low their character is to serve such a man.

They are the Kingsguard. Their only purpose, their only duty is to protect the king and his royal lineague. They are the secret service. The Praetorian Guard. Commanded by an oath so powerful that it prevents them from taking a wife, child, land, or titles. If that oath was simply disregarded every time there's a bad king, the entire foundation and purpose of the group would be crippled. While they may disapprove and cast judgment on a king's actions, to betray their oath would undermine the organzation potentially towards the point of irrelevance and besmirch their own honor, no matter the potential consequences of not betraying it. Jamie made a judgment call, his honor and reputation for all time, and potentially that of the whole Kingsguard, for the city and hundreds of thousands of people in Kings Landing. With that much on the line, perhaps it was the right one.

And remember, Aerys didn't start off insane.

As for Dany, when we met the Starks they already had their established rule, their land. A quaint, somewhat happy family. Firm, just upbringing. And they existed in that role for thousands of years. Dany and her kin were always usurpers and outsiders conquering from afar and using flying, firebreathing Dues Ex Machina's to do it. Her kin brought madness and instability about every third generation just so they could 'keep the bloodline pure'. She has done nothing to merit respect, shown little in the way of competence, yet feels that she's entitled to Westeros by right. Worse still, the way her story is being crafted suggests that she may actually achieve it to some degree. She is the closest thing to the stereotypical fantasy hero cliche, outside of maybe Jon.

And perhaps worst in my mind, is that she has done nothing to deserve the power and minions she currently possesses. She got dragons because Martin wanted her to have dragons. She took no great efforts reasonably calculated to achieving that end, her little death/fire/hatching birth bit worked the author wanted it too. Well, fair enough. Ok, not knowing how one would reasonably grab onto a trio of dragons, I can accept that...grudgingly.

But when she got her army of super soldiers I just wanted to vomit. What a horribly contrived set of unrealistic conveniences expedited at the author's whim to give the character something that none of her actions would ever reasonably lead too. I mean seriously, we'd have to believe that these sinister slavers and cutthroat traders are naive as little children to fall for something so silly. Or that they'd socially engineer these beasts to be the ultimate war machines and not implant a 'Don't ever attack us' suggestion in between their snipping and puppy murdering. There are too many unrealistic turns of events in this sequence that we're forced to swallow simply because Martin wanted her to have an army. So she gets dragons, an army, an apparent destiny to save Westeros and potentially rule it (or else die heroically), all through no competence of her own, and people wonder why the worthless twit is hated?

And to Ned. I think some of the criticism of him is unfair. He didn't play the game well because he never intended to. He had no ambitions beyond justice, no goal beyond truth. The only thing that trumped those ideals was the safety of his family. He is a paragon of hard justice, discipline, and sensible righteousness. This may not serve him playing cloak n dagger games in the King's Court, but don't believe for a second that it doesn't have it's uses.

This sort of example commands the respect of friends and enemies alike. Inspires fierce loyalty of those like-minded, or those who simply believe they are. (which with chivalric notions tossed around in word often enough, though not often in deed, it'd still work to similar effect). When he calls, banner-men will come. Disputing rivals in his own land will respect and obey his judgment as arbiter, never suspecting him of favoritism or bias. His honor is well known and his word better than a dozen chests of Lannister gold. He could call on reasonable aid from any house during times of peace with no doubt that the debt will be repaid. And he knew his limitations. In the 15 years since the rebellion, he rarely mingled or messed with the Byzantine politics of the court, merely seeing to his own lands and giving it strong, firm rule. He only left, and did so unwillingly, because a dear friend appealed to his sense of duty and loyalty, and he was left with little choice but to comply. He was completely out of his element, but perservered and did his best. And for that we call him 'Ned the naive dunce'? Bah!

[cybroleach]

Catelyn vs. Rickard Karstark: One's a you-know-what. The other's a grieving father who deserves his vengeance. Discuss.

I'm glad you threw this one out here so i can point out Cat's true nature of Hypocratzy.

Sinario A) Jaime kills poor Rickard's two sons and he's stricken with grief and wants Jaime killed.

Cat's view "Lord Rickard, the Kingslayer's dying would not have bought life for your children. His living may buy life for mine."

Now lets fast forward...

Sinario THeon kills poor Cat's two sons and shes stricken with greif and wants Theon killed.

Cat's view "Hostage?" The word raised Catelyn's hackles. Hostages were often exchanged. "Lord Bolton i hope you are not suggesting that we free the man who killed my sons." But what about her noble sentiments of it Theon not bring back her sons think of his exchange value Robbet could get his two children plus his wife and likely the enitre Tallhart family but no when its her childern who were killed the hostage MUST die.

[Slinx]

As for Dany, when we met the Starks they already had their established rule, their land. A quaint, somewhat happy family. Firm, just upbringing. And they existed in that role for thousands of years. Dany and her kin were always usurpers and outsiders conquering from afar and using flying, firebreathing Dues Ex Machina's to do it. Her kin brought madness and instability about every third generation just so they could 'keep the bloodline pure'. She has done nothing to merit respect, shown little in the way of competence, yet feels that she's entitled to Westeros by right. Worse still, the way her story is being crafted suggests that she may actually achieve it to some degree. She is the closest thing to the stereotypical fantasy hero cliche, outside of maybe Jon.

And perhaps worst in my mind, is that she has done nothing to deserve the power and minions she currently possesses. She got dragons because Martin wanted her to have dragons. She took no great efforts reasonably calculated to achieving that end, her little death/fire/hatching birth bit worked the author wanted it too. Well, fair enough. Ok, not knowing how one would reasonably grab onto a trio of dragons, I can accept that...grudgingly.

But when she got her army of super soldiers I just wanted to vomit. What a horribly contrived set of unrealistic conveniences expedited at the author's whim to give the character something that none of her actions would ever reasonably lead too. I mean seriously, we'd have to believe that these sinister slavers and cutthroat traders are naive as little children to fall for something so silly. Or that they'd socially engineer these beasts to be the ultimate war machines and not implant a 'Don't ever attack us' suggestion in between their snipping and puppy murdering. There are too many unrealistic turns of events in this sequence that we're forced to swallow simply because Martin wanted her to have an army. So she gets dragons, an army, an apparent destiny to save Westeros and potentially rule it (or else die heroically), all through no competence of her own, and people wonder why the worthless twit is hated?

Heh, nicely said, but for that you gave a whole bunch of Targ fans hard ons. So expect the boohoo story, the she only had herself to rely on crap, and all the stuff about how everyone but the Targs were evil.

And to Ned. I think some of the criticism of him is unfair. He didn't play the game well because he never intended to. He had no ambitions beyond justice, no goal beyond truth. The only thing that trumped those ideals was the safety of his family. He is a paragon of hard justice, discipline, and sensible righteousness. This may not serve him playing cloak n dagger games in the King's Court, but don't believe for a second that it doesn't have it's uses.

In comparison he seems a lenient Stannis, but we don't know if Stannis used a personal executioner or did it himself, so I'd say Ned's standards were much harder. Also pretty much sums up my opinion on Ned as well.

[doc awesome]

How about Theon vs Jon?

Jon betrays the wildings and becomes a fucking hero and the fanbois drool

Theon betrays the Starks and he is 'Theon Turn cloak'

[The Young Lion]

as for Dany...for starters, she's completely blind to the idea maaaybe daddy wasn't such a great guy, after all the warfare in Westeros for an outside player to come in and sweep it all away would be extremely irritating. Not only that, Dany is hypocritcal, naive and utterly unsuited to ruling Westeros and the Targaryens were pretty much justly deposed. The Starks most certainly were not.

Look, I know i really hated Dany in the first 3 books, but at

the end of ASOS she did impress me by deciding to stay

and learn to rule.

What irritated me about Dany more than anything was the

constant 'I am the rightful ruler' justifications for anything

bad that happened.

I am the blood of the Dragon!

I am the blood of the Dragon!

I am the blood of the Dragon!

For what its worth, i always hated Littlefinger for what he

did to Ned. I will never trust the guy but i am starting to enjoy

him alot more since he has starting to take an interest in Sansa.

I just hope the girl wakes up, learns from the man and betrays

him and I can have my vengence on him for what he did to Ned.

The Young Lion

[doc awesome]

^^^ theres anouther one wile LF was a dick is it realy a good thing that he gets replaced by Cersei part 2?

[The Young Lion]

As for Dany, when we met the Starks they already had their established rule, their land. A quaint, somewhat happy family. Firm, just upbringing. And they existed in that role for thousands of years. Dany and her kin were always usurpers and outsiders conquering from afar and using flying, firebreathing Dues Ex Machina's to do it. Her kin brought madness and instability about every third generation just so they could 'keep the bloodline pure'. She has done nothing to merit respect, shown little in the way of competence, yet feels that she's entitled to Westeros by right. Worse still, the way her story is being crafted suggests that she may actually achieve it to some degree. She is the closest thing to the stereotypical fantasy hero cliche, outside of maybe Jon.

And perhaps worst in my mind, is that she has done nothing to deserve the power and minions she currently possesses. She got dragons because Martin wanted her to have dragons. She took no great efforts reasonably calculated to achieving that end, her little death/fire/hatching birth bit worked the author wanted it too. Well, fair enough. Ok, not knowing how one would reasonably grab onto a trio of dragons, I can accept that...grudgingly.

But when she got her army of super soldiers I just wanted to vomit. What a horribly contrived set of unrealistic conveniences expedited at the author's whim to give the character something that none of her actions would ever reasonably lead too. I mean seriously, we'd have to believe that these sinister slavers and cutthroat traders are naive as little children to fall for something so silly. Or that they'd socially engineer these beasts to be the ultimate war machines and not implant a 'Don't ever attack us' suggestion in between their snipping and puppy murdering. There are too many unrealistic turns of events in this sequence that we're forced to swallow simply because Martin wanted her to have an army. So she gets dragons, an army, an apparent destiny to save Westeros and potentially rule it (or else die heroically), all through no competence of her own, and people wonder why the worthless twit is hated?

Haha, that sums up exactly my feelings on Dany.

What a superb job, well done

The Young Lion

[bundtcake]

As for Dany,

And to Ned.

YES, keep fighting the good fight!

[Enguerrand]

Beyond that, I think Littlefinger holds a special appeal for most of us. Look back on that thread of ASOIAF as High School. Where everyone is a jock swirling the freshmen, or a gorgeous cheerleader looking down on the social misfits, Baelish is the uber-nerd done good. He's not strong, he's not athletic, nor courageous or heroic. But he is smart. Very smart. And he's got near-absolute control over all those others, using his brains alone. For those of us who couldn't beat up to the bully in high school, or couldn't get past the cheerleader's cold shoulder, Baelish is doing what we'd like to have done. We might not approve of his methods, but we kind of cheer him on anyway...

This is a very good point. I never seen it made before. The nerd who yearns for the cheerleader that threats him like a little brother and then he gets trashed by her jock boyfriend. Then takes on the system singlehandely and beats it.

Heh, nicely said, but for that you gave a whole bunch of Targ fans hard ons. So expect the boohoo story, the she only had herself to rely on crap, and all the stuff about how everyone but the Targs were evil.

Here comes the fire

Dany and her kin were always usurpers and outsiders conquering from afar and using flying, firebreathing Dues Ex Machina's to do it.

300 years is a long time, by your logic you should move back to Europe since you clearly is an outsider in America. To the people of Westeros they are the established royal dynasty, even the Baratheons tries to appeal to this when they usurp the throne. And you obviously don’t know what Deus Ex Machina is.

The Valyrians used dragons in combat for hundreds, if not thousands of years, the Targaryens didn’t pull them of their pockets when they conquered Westeros.

Deus Ex Machina is when an army appear from nowhere from the other side of the world just when you are about kill the enemy boss in the middle of his camp. Or when you warging stepbrother on a quest for finding the fairies, happens to pass by the polar circle when you are surrounded by murderous Eskimos.

Her kin brought madness and instability about every third generation just so they could 'keep the bloodline pure'.

It also brought unparralled unity and peace. Real life history has plenty of kings who were unhinged without incest. It’s a position with a lot pressure.

She has done nothing to merit respect, shown little in the way of competence, yet feels that she's entitled to Westeros by right.

You must skim her chapters or something, chances are you would lie sniffiling in a corner if you went trough half of what Dany experienced. Dany shows again and again how resourceful she is, no matter what life throws at her she just find another way to solve the problem. Rob had done nothing to merit the lordship of Winterfell, yet he claims in by right of blood and inheritance just like everyone else in Westeros. Why should Dany be the only one in Martinworld to cater to the modern concept of meritocracy?

(And if she did she surely would make a better job then Robert fucking Baratheon).

She took no great efforts reasonably calculated to achieving that end, her little death/fire/hatching birth bit worked the author wanted it too.

I admit that one is kind of corny. But that’s how magic appears in Martin’s world since he doesn’t bother to explain how it work. Renly’s death out of nowhere irks me too, No one can really say anything if Littlefinger keels over killed by a shadowbaby despite his smarts and planning.

I mean seriously, we'd have to believe that these sinister slavers and cutthroat traders are naive as little children to fall for something so silly.

Dany asks why no one attacks the slavecities when they really can’t defend themselves. Jorah answers that everyone profits from them being there. With her new army, Dany stand to make a huge profit out of the slavetrade so why eliminate the buyers? They just don’t count on Dany’s idealism. It also depends on the value of taking back the dragon, but the Astapori seems overcomed with the notion of gaining a dragon(why is not entirely clear, they don't seem expansionist and unsullied is the finished product.)

Or that they'd socially engineer these beasts to be the ultimate war machines and not implant a 'Don't ever attack us' suggestion in between their snipping and puppy murdering.

The whole concept of the unsullied is far-fetched to me, while the concept of slave-soldiers isn’t strange in the real world they should quickly turn into a power, realizing their value and capabilities. So I assume the Astapori use some advanced mind control, that just works one way.

So she gets dragons, an army, an apparent destiny to save Westeros and potentially rule it (or else die heroically), all through no competence of her own, and people wonder why the worthless twit is hated?

Still this Dany had to do things to get them. Why isn't Robb a worthless twit who despite being handed everything on a silverplatter manage to piss all away through petulance and ineptitude?

[Daemrion]

I'm waiting for Red Rex to show up and start his Drogo is as great as Genghis Khan spiel again

Enguerrand,

The Valyrians used dragons in combat for hundreds, if not thousands of years, the Targaryens didn’t pull them of their pockets when they conquered Westeros.

But you see, dragons were extinct before Dany came along. It was at the very least a blatant plot device. Dany suddenly becoming an 'expert' blood magician too. The Valyrians had used dragons, so had the Targaryens - but there were no dragons left.

It also brought unparralled unity and peace. Real life history has plenty of kings who were unhinged without incest. It’s a position with a lot pressure.

Nope, Dance of Dragons, the Blackfyre Rebellion, War of the Ninepenny Kings, the war btwn the Sword and the Stars and Maegor??

I would not say unparralled unity and peace.

Jon betrays the wildings and becomes a fucking hero and the fanbois drool

Theon betrays the Starks and he is 'Theon Turn cloak'

Jon was ordered to join the wildlings and betray them by a superior officer. And the wildlings were a threat and Jon was actually never trusted.

Theon on the other hand, was put in a full position of trust. And the Starks were no threat to the Greyjoys.

[A wilding]

Sinario A) Jaime kills poor Rickard's two sons and he's stricken with grief and wants Jaime killed.

Cat's view "Lord Rickard, the Kingslayer's dying would not have bought life for your children. His living may buy life for mine."

Now lets fast forward...

Sinario THeon kills poor Cat's two sons and shes stricken with greif and wants Theon killed.

Cat's view "Hostage?" The word raised Catelyn's hackles. Hostages were often exchanged. "Lord Bolton i hope you are not suggesting that we free the man who killed my sons." But what about her noble sentiments of it Theon not bring back her sons think of his exchange value Robbet could get his two children plus his wife and likely the enitre Tallhart family but no when its her childern who were killed the hostage MUST die.

There is a subtle distinction between the two cases though. The Karstarks were adults, killed in fair and open battle. Bran and Rickon were children and prisoners, "killed" in what was basically murder (analogous to Rickard Karstark killing those squires in fact).

I think that the average Westeros person would see a significant difference there. Theon's own sister says scornfully to his face, "Which one gave you the more trouble? The cripple or the babe?"

Sansa vs. Arianne: Both act behind their father's backs with decidedly negative consequences. Is it just the age difference that has us cutting Sansa more slack?

How about Arianne vs Cersei? Both seduce men to get them to do what they want.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Theon on the other hand, was put in a full position of trust.

Yet Catelyn still saw the potential dangers of sending Theon back to Pyke. The fact that Theon was being so trusted by Robb over this is simply a reflection of Robb being so hideously naive. The Wildings were not that naive with Jon.

[A Time for Wolves]

Yet Catelyn still saw the potential dangers of sending Theon back to Pyke. The fact that Theon was being so trusted by Robb over this is simply a reflection of Robb being so hideously naive. The Wildings were not that naive with Jon.

The wildlings did not grow up with Jon since they were five years old, looking up to Jon as if he were an older brother. Cat could only be objective because she had no feelings for Theon clouding her judgement. Look how she behaves when her resentment over Jon clouds her judgement of him. When you grow up with someone you look upon as a sibling, you tend to trust them. Robb made the mistake of trusting Theon, yes, but didn't Cat make the same mistake of trusting Littlefinger? I don't think you're being quite fair to Robb.

[oba]

And perhaps worst in my mind, is that she has done nothing to deserve the power and minions she currently possesses. She got dragons because Martin wanted her to have dragons. She took no great efforts reasonably calculated to achieving that end, her little death/fire/hatching birth bit worked the author wanted it too. Well, fair enough. Ok, not knowing how one would reasonably grab onto a trio of dragons, I can accept that...grudgingly.

And the Stark kids worked so hard to get their direwolves and warging abilities. Wait, I forgot, Robb found them in the snow.

[side note: Every character gets everything because Martin wants them to get it.]

There are too many unrealistic turns of events in this sequence that we're forced to swallow simply because Martin wanted her to have an army. So she gets dragons, an army, an apparent destiny to save Westeros and potentially rule it (or else die heroically), all through no competence of her own, and people wonder why the worthless twit is hated?

You mean sort of like the sequence of events which enable Jon to become LC of the Night's Watch?

That aside, I must applaud your brilliant defense of Ned Stark. Bravo.

Robb made the mistake of trusting Theon, yes, but didn't Cat make the same mistake of trusting Littlefinger? I don't think you're being quite fair to Robb.

That's a very, very good point. Sometimes my pro-Catelyn bias causes me to forget her trusting LF based upon their childhood relationship.

[Red Sun]

The wildlings did not grow up with Jon since they were five years old, looking up to Jon as if he were an older brother. Cat could only be objective because she had no feelings for Theon clouding her judgement. Look how she behaves when her resentment over Jon clouds her judgement of him. When you grow up with someone you look upon as a sibling, you tend to trust them. Robb made the mistake of trusting Theon, yes, but didn't Cat make the same mistake of trusting Littlefinger? I don't think you're being quite fair to Robb.

That is indeed a very good point, but then I'm not someone condemning Robb for making errors. I just think it's unfair to lay his mistakes at the feet of other characters. I feel quite sorry for Robb, because he caught that "my mistakes have always the worst possible consequence" syndrom from both his parents.