Issue with King Jon I Targaryen theory

[sj4iy]

I don't think Jon will become king.

1) He deserves better

I agree. But people don't get what they deserve in this story.

2) Despite being Rhaegar's son the important thing is that he is Lyanna's. He will always be Stark

I disagree. His Targaryen side is very important, as well. He's the balance of ice AND fire- not just one or the other.

3) He'd never betray his vows

He betrayed his vows when he tried to desert. He betrayed his vows when he slept with Ygritte. He will choose the realm over his honor any day- so this isn't true at all that he wouldn't betray his vows. We have proof that he would.

4) Unfortunately I think he will die a tragic death saving the Realm from the Others.

It could happen...but it's one of many possibilities for Jon.

[Arya Stark Rules]

Did you miss the first part of my sentence? Circumstances change- who's to say they will never know who Jon really is? They THINK he's Ned's bastard- but he's really Robb's cousin...if he's their only hope of survival against the Others, then I see no reason they wouldn't support him. And they have no reason to hate Jon because Lysa's dead.

And how is Jon's birth going to be accepted as gospel that easily?

And who said Jon is the only hope? If the White walkers launch war on Westeros everyone is going to fight back to protect themselves there is no such thing as Jon being a snowflake for everyone in Westeros. This isn't marvel super heroes.

[sj4iy]

And how is Jon's birth going to be accepted as gospel that easily?

And who said Jon is the only hope? If the White walkers launch war on Westeros everyone is going to fight back to protect themselves there is no such thing as Jon being a snowflake for everyone in Westeros. This isn't marvel super heroes.

You seem to think I'm saying something I never said. I'm giving hypotheticals- my POINT is that you can't say "it will NEVER happen" because you don't know how the story will change from here.

[Mithras]

Robert's ascension to the IT was the natural course of the events. Yes, he had the best claim by blood and he used that "technicality" but what really made him the king was that he was the leader of the rebellion, he killed Rhaegar single-handedly and generally he fought like a king should. Lord Borrell said that much.

My father sat where I sit now when Lord Eddard came to Sisterton. Our maester urged us to send Stark’s head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty. It would have meant a rich reward. The Mad King was open-handed with them as pleased him. By then we knew that Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown, though. Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. ‘This Baratheon is fearless,’ I said. ‘He fights the way a king should fight.’ Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, ‘In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it’s true … but what if we prevail?’ My father sent him on his way with his head still on his shoulders. ‘If you lose,’ he told Lord Eddard, ‘you were never here.’

ETA: This post was made to show the futility of reducing everything to whether Jon was legitimate or not, or will the lords/people be convinced or not.

[Lee-Sensei]

sji4y 1) I repeat. He murdered his own brother for the Throne and revealed that he regrets it. If he goes and bends the knee to Jon now, him murdering Renly becomes pointless.

2) No. Euron is. If he dies, the only options for leader of the IB are Aeron, Victarion, Theon and Asha. None of which would accept a Northern King. The IB had to be conquered by the Targaryens and the Greyjoys. I don't seem them going along with the Northmen (who they have a long and bad history with unlike the Targs and Baratheons), without a fight.

3) That's true.

4) That's debatable, but even if Edmure were to swear fealty to Jon (Brynden has a bad opinion of him), that's only 2 of the 9 Kingdoms.

5) Perhaps so she can save the Arryn heir and get back to her home? If Yohn Royce takes over the Vale as regent and gets rid of LF, seeing as he was a friend of Ned he'd probably take care of his daughter. Sansa doesn't want to be in the Vale and even if she did achieve a position of power, it would only be through her relationship with one of the Arryns.

6) My point is that Jon doesn't have anywhere near the necessary support for him being the King of Westeros.

[John Doe]

Stargaryen. It's called Stargaryen.

[sj4iy]

6) My point is that Jon doesn't have anywhere near the necessary support for him being the King of Westeros.

My point is that you are looking at it from the wrong side of the War for the Dawn. It's not about what Jon is now...it's about what he could potentially become. If he is the Prince that was Promised/Azor Ahai Reborn and is one of the major players in defeating the Others and saving humanity, then it's not about 'what's your bloodline?'- it's about 'you are the leader we need to help us rebuild our war-ravaged lands'.

[Lee-Sensei]

Even looking at it that way it doesn't add up. Even if he did save them from the Others, how would that translate into him being a competent King and administrator? Why would these people, many of whom have had traditional monarchies bend the knee to a foreign, teenaged (from their point of view) pagan.

[sj4iy]

Even looking at it that way it doesn't add up. Even if he did save them from the Others, how would that translate into him being a competent King and administrator? Why would these people, many of whom have had traditional monarchies bend the knee to a foreign, teenaged (from their point of view) pagan.

Just what sort of state do you think Westeros will be in at that point that they can be picky? Jon is a proven leader, commander and has the bloodlines that make him a desirable candidate for the job. It's very likely that the Baratheon line will be gone by that point- so who do you turn to? Well, if there are Targaryens around riding dragons who saved Westeros, that is probably where you look first. It's also not about convincing Westeros of who he is- it's about convincing those who would choose the next king...and I see no reason that it won't be known who Jon is by that point.

This is all one possible scenario, but I see it as one that very well could happen. I'm not quick to say that something can't happen...especially when it has been foreshadowed since book 1.

[Lee-Sensei]

The Targaryens were half mad and they aren't popular among the nobility of Westeros. The Baratheons are still around and even if they weren't, the Seven Kingdoms don't have to be united under Jon. They could just separate and be ruled by their respective Great Houses again.

[Arya Stark Rules]

Just what sort of state do you think Westeros will be in at that point that they can be picky? Jon is a proven leader, commander and has the bloodlines that make him a desirable candidate for the job. It's very likely that the Baratheon line will be gone by that point- so who do you turn to? Well, if there are Targaryens around riding dragons who saved Westeros, that is probably where you look first. It's also not about convincing Westeros of who he is- it's about convincing those who would choose the next king...and I see no reason that it won't be known who Jon is by that point.

This is all one possible scenario, but I see it as one that very well could happen. I'm not quick to say that something can't happen...especially when it has been foreshadowed since book 1.

But Jon is still part of the NW, why would they try to make a member of the NW a King? And even if he leaves for some reason he will be known as an oathbreaker and that won't give him any brownie points to be chosen as King.

There is no scenario that Jon that Jon becomes King of the seven kingdoms and it isnt in a forced way.

[OldGimletEye]

Even looking at it that way it doesn't add up. Even if he did save them from the Others, how would that translate into him being a competent King and administrator? Why would these people, many of whom have had traditional monarchies bend the knee to a foreign, teenaged (from their point of view) pagan.

Uh let me get this straight. Jon leads the NW and possibly the North against the Others and people are going to question whether he is competent administrator? Isn't that kind of like questioning whether Moltke or Chester Nimitiz were competent administrators?

But Jon is still part of the NW, why would they try to make a member of the NW a King? And even if he leaves for some reason he will be known as an oathbreaker and that won't give him any brownie points to be chosen as King.

There is no scenario that Jon that Jon becomes King of the seven kingdoms and it isnt in a forced way.

This assumes that NW will even exist at the end of the series. Even if the NW does exist, there might be a chance that it doesn't exist as we know it.

[Trickrs]

Parroting a guy from other Jon thread.

Jon's fans want him in the IT, want him to be KiTN or LP of the north, want him to ride a dragon and being AA reborn...why not to change the name of the books to 'a song of Jon and Snow'?

[David Selig]

The NW consists of about 1500 men these days, mostly green recruits and non-rangers. If they are the leading force which defeats the others and gets most of the credit, the Others would be the lamest fantasy villains ever.

[Arya Stark Rules]

Uh let me get this straight. Jon leads the NW and possibly the North against the Others and people are going to question whether he is competent administrator? Isn't that kind of like questioning whether Moltke or Chester Nimitiz were competent administrators?

This assumes that NW will even exist at the end of the series. Even if the NW does exist, there might be a chance that it doesn't exist as we know it.

And why should we assume it wont exist? They were the organization that helped end the Long Night the last time it happened I really see no reason for them to not exist at the end of the series.

[OldGimletEye]

And why should we assume it wont exist? They were the organization that helped end the Long Night the last time it happened I really see no reason for them to not exist at the end of the series.

And how of an effective organization has it been lately? It kind of needs serious reform. Also, its possible that this might be the last and final long night.

ETA:

Also, I am pretty sure that Jon's influence will go beyond the NW, once the war for dawn occurs. As some have pointed out, it's not likely that the NW will be able to defeat the Others by itself. By the end of the series, it quite likely that Jon will be acting in a leadership capacity that goes beyond what NW LC's have traditionally done.

[Arya Stark Rules]

And how of an effective organization has it been lately? It kind of needs serious reform. Also, its possible that this might be the last and final long night.

Well that's the point of the story as Old Nan stated "As long as the NW stays true the realms of men will be protected" tossing away the NW isn't going to solve the problem it's about finding what the problem is and fixing it. The NW isn't just a political institution it also has a strong magical background the problem could be an ancient practice that isn't even being performed anymore.

Im sorry but there is no evidence in the text that this is the final Long Night, even if it is no one in the story is going to assume that, so the NW will continue to do it's job.

The fact that the Others returned for a second time it would be very silly to think they won't come a third time.

[sj4iy]

The Targaryens were half mad and they aren't popular among the nobility of Westeros.

Absolutely wrong. The Targaryens have reached legendary status amongst the Westerosi- especially the nobility. We have numerous passages from people like Tyrion, Bran, Jon and Arya all talking about their favorite Targaryen heroes. They are still revered in the present day even by people like the Starks- who should, for all intents and purposes, hate them. For every bad Targaryen, there are at least 2 or 3 who were good to legendary. Nor were they were they half mad' and unpopular, because we have Jaime Lannister, Barristan Selmy and Jorah Mormont (all from noble families) lamenting the fact that Rhaegar never became king.

I truly think you are projecting your own feelings of the Targaryens onto what the story actually says about them.

The Baratheons are still around and even if they weren't, the Seven Kingdoms don't have to be united under Jon. They could just separate and be ruled by their respective Great Houses again.

The Baratheon line is down to Stannis and his sickly daughter. Foreboding surrounds the both of them (such as Val calling Shireen 'the dead girl'), and it's very much looking like their line will fail before the end.

I don't see the Seven Kingdoms splitting up. For one, they will all have to unite if they are to defeat the Others. Someone will HAVE to unite them in order to do that, and my guess is that it will either be Jon, Dany, Aegon or a combination of any of the three.

[OldGimletEye]

Well that's the point of the story as Old Nan stated "As long as the NW stays true the realms of men will be protected" tossing away the NW isn't going to solve the problem it's about finding what the problem is and fixing it. The NW isn't just a political institution it also has a strong magical background the problem could be an ancient practice that isn't even being performed anymore.

Yeah, well, I don't know about all the magic stuff. What I do know is that the NW isn't able to attract enough quality recruits to carry out it's mission. Part of the problem is that too many people "own it", which means nobody does, which in turn means it's constantly short of men and resources.

Im sorry but there is no evidence in the text that this is the final Long Night, even if it is no one in the story is going to assume that, so the NW will continue to do it's job.

The fact that the Others returned for a second time it would be very silly to think they won't come a third time.

And there is little evidence that there will be a third. The bottom line is that we just don't know yet.

[sj4iy]

Well that's the point of the story as Old Nan stated "As long as the NW stays true the realms of men will be protected" tossing away the NW isn't going to solve the problem it's about finding what the problem is and fixing it. The NW isn't just a political institution it also has a strong magical background the problem could be an ancient practice that isn't even being performed anymore.

Im sorry but there is no evidence in the text that this is the final Long Night, even if it is no one in the story is going to assume that, so the NW will continue to do it's job.

The fact that the Others returned for a second time it would be very silly to think they won't come a third time.

'Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt she was born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned... and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end... death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn.'

It's very possible that this IS the last "Long Night" and that defeating the Others this time may actually 'reset' the world to what it was before when the world had predictable seasons.