karaddin Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 The PR wasn't particularly specific and probably isn't the right person, intimidating the victims, arranging financial payment to the victims or their family (as was happening in some of these cases according to upthread). It may well be that this is all handled by the lawyers which would render it all irrelevant anyway. I'm not writing the legislation, I'm expressing a sentiment of disgust and contempt and am aware there would be a ton of difficulties with any such law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athias Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 The reality is the vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults take place under circumstances where there simply won't be extrinsic evidence of the crimes. Even where evidence of a sexual encounter is available, this evidence usually leaves unresolved the central and most important question: was there consent to the sexual act? This often boils down, ultimately, to a "he said-she said" scenario. I think most of the people posting in this thread acknowledge that there is unlikely to be ANY real evidence presented of Cosby being a rapist OTHER THAN the word of Cosby's accusers. For some people, that's enough to convince them, by whatever standard it is that people adopt for purposes of their personal belief in something. And for some people, that's not enough. The problem with the "is there a fire?" scenario is that whether there was a fire or not is something that is readily ascertainable by reference to extrinsic evidence. You can see fire. You can smell fire. If a house burns down, you can see that it burned down, take pictures of it, etc. The evidence will likely persist for days, or weeks, or even years. When something is readily verifiable by reference to extrinsic proofs, people expect that the extrinsic proofs will be provided. When something is not readily verifiable by reference to extrinsic proofs, people don't necessarily expect it. I doubt that Cosby will ever be convicted in a Court of law of rape beyond a reasonable doubt. It's quite possible that no proof currently exists that would allow a reasonable jury to make that finding. If you put me in a jury box, I couldn't convict him beyond a reasonable doubt based on the accusations that have arisen. But as far as my personal belief in Cosby's guilt or innocence goes, I have very little problem believing the allegations against him. If any of these accusers take the stand against him in a criminal or civil suit, I'll look at their testimony under oath and perhaps revise my opinion. But as for right now, I'm quite comfortable in my belief that Bill Cosby is quite likely a serial rapist and dangerous predator, and I will never support a thing he does ever again. I suppose the metaphor is insufficient. I'm not trying to dictate the parameters to which one can or should express an opinion on this. I would never presume to tell anyone how they should feel about something. No one has to be 'formal' when constructing their opinions. Only as a matter of procedure, I find the prospect of condemnation in the absence of evidence concerning. I do find some opinions unfortunate--mostly because there's a McCarthyist element present--but, nevertheless, I wouldn't denounce their ability to make it. I have no emotional input in the outcome of all this, so I can't say that this changes my opinion of Bill Cosby. Unless there's any evidence to the effect on which these claims are based, I'm not likely to change my presumption. That's just how I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Only as a matter of procedure, I find the prospect of condemnation in the absence of evidence concerning. I do find some opinions unfortunate--mostly because there's a McCarthyist element present--but, nevertheless, I wouldn't denounce their ability to make it. I have no emotional input in the outcome of all this, so I can't say that this changes my opinion of Bill Cosby. Unless there's any evidence to the effect on which these claims are based, I'm not likely to change my presumption. That's just how I am. Would you allow your 18 year old daughter to go on an overnight camping trip with him? If say by chance you happened to have an 18 year old daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athias Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Would you allow your 18 year old daughter to go on an overnight camping trip with him? If say by chance you happened to have an 18 year old daughter. Whether I would allow for it is moot. My daughter would be the only one who could make that decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Whether I would allow for it is moot. My daughter would be the only one who could make that decision. Well, there's McCarthyism and then there's common sense. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Whether I would allow for it is moot. My daughter would be the only one who could make that decision. She's fifteen then. Decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Walker Texas Ranger Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 She's fifteen then. Decide.Or she's 17. Above the age of consent in most places, but still not an adult. ETA: Hell, you wouldn't even need to have legal authority over her. Would you object to such a trip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athias Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 She's fifteen then. Decide. Or she's 17. Above the age of consent in most places, but still not an adult. My answer wasn't based on the notion that she's 18. There may be some liability I risk as her legal custodian--that is, if he were proven to be a rapist--but, in the absence of all that, I would not hamper her ability to make her own decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 My answer wasn't based on the notion that she's 18. There may be some liability I risk as her legal custodian--that is, if he were proven to be a rapist--but, in the absence of all that, I would not hamper her ability to make her own decisions. I sincerely hope you don't have a daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athias Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I sincerely hope you don't have a daughter. Well, your "hope" is eight years overdue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee baby Shamus Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I sincerely hope you don't have a daughter. And how is he really going to stop her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray the Enforcer Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 [mod] Discuss the topic, not each other. Thank you. [/mod] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorMakhnosLovechild Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Nestor - would such a trial then alter your personal opinion? Given the eloquently stated reasons why a conviction would be extremely difficult I wouldn't let the failure to attain the legal standard change my personal opinion. I would accept it as the correct legal decision even as I thought it was an injustice. All things being equal, I wouldn't be swayed by a failure to convict in a criminal proceeding beyond a reasonable doubt. If the accusers were able to bring some kind of civil lawsuit and a jury found that they couldn't make their case by a preponderance of the evidence... I might think differently. Maybe not, but I might. I'd probably have to take a look at the actual testimony and judge it for myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorMakhnosLovechild Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I suppose the metaphor is insufficient. I'm not trying to dictate the parameters to which one can or should express an opinion on this. I would never presume to tell anyone how they should feel about something. No one has to be 'formal' when constructing their opinions. Only as a matter of procedure, I find the prospect of condemnation in the absence of evidence concerning. I do find some opinions unfortunate--mostly because there's a McCarthyist element present--but, nevertheless, I wouldn't denounce their ability to make it. I have no emotional input in the outcome of all this, so I can't say that this changes my opinion of Bill Cosby. Unless there's any evidence to the effect on which these claims are based, I'm not likely to change my presumption. That's just how I am. Eyewitness testimony - the testimony of the accusers / alleged victims - is evidence. Eyewitness testimony, in fact, is often considered (for better of worse) incredibly compelling evidence. In a sexual assault/rape case where the fact of sexual contact is not in dispute and the only issue is whether the victim consented, the testimony of the victim might be the only evidence that will ever be available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athias Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Eyewitness testimony - the testimony of the accusers / alleged victims - is evidence. Eyewitness testimony, in fact, is often considered (for better of worse) incredibly compelling evidence. In a sexual assault/rape case where the fact of sexual contact is not in dispute and the only issue is whether the victim consented, the testimony of the victim might be the only evidence that will ever be available. Fair enough. Perhaps I was being too broad. Evidence being evidence is not susceptible to my qualifications of said evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 And how is he really going to stop her? How about "you're not going". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athias Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 How about "you're not going". My telling her,"you're not going," wouldn't necessarily stop her from going. (Though, it could.) At the very least, it would serve the purpose of voicing my objection to this camping trip with Bill Cosby in particular--which would necessitate, at least on my part, knowledge or a presumption of his guilt. Given what you've seen thus far, it's fair to assume that any objections made on my part would not be derived from such presumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Well said. I also think that at a certain point (i.e. 20 accusers coming forward), the burden of proof outside the legal arena can safely be shifted to the accused to show that the allegations, are in fact, untrue.Out of curiosity, how would you be able to prove the accusations were false? Having alibis would be the only way I would think. Because if it's he said/she said then proving it is gonna be difficult for either person wouldn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Out of curiosity, how would you be able to prove the accusations were false? Having alibis would be the only way I would think. Because if it's he said/she said then proving it is gonna be difficult for either person wouldn't it? If you can't prove some sort of connection between all those people so that attacking one case discredits the others then there's pretty much nothing you can do. If you're that unlucky that so many competent people hate you or independently want you dead (and I can't recall anyone ever getting screwed this hard)...well, that's just the cost of doing business. Nothing to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee baby Shamus Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 How about "you're not going"? It's pretty obvious that you do not have a teenage daughter. And I fixed your question for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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