Ser Greenseer Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 The Starks aren't Targs. And if so why was Brandon going to marry Catelyn? The Arryns are a powerful and ancient house plus having them located near is a great thing to have in an ally. Unless I'm mistaken the Tully's are first men they just converted to worshipping the seven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 1) I sincerely doubt that any House is pure. Certainly not for Houses as old as theirs. 2) The Starks and Arryns had been at war for a thousand years. One that they lost and ended with an Invasion of White Harbor and the Wolf Den being burnt down. The Arryns are a powerful House. Probably wealthier and secures the and right next to them. 3) It's highly unlikely that the Tully's are pure First Men given that they're surrounded by Andal Houses and have existed for thousands of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat of the Rivers Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Unless I'm mistaken the Tully's are first men they just converted to worshipping the seven. The Tullys probably have some Andal blood due to intermarrying with other noble houses. And like Lee Sensei said no House is completely, 100% pure. Only the Targs fussed about those matters and even then their blood isn't 100% pure either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greenseer Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 The Tullys probably have some Andal blood due to intermarrying with other noble houses. And like Lee Sensei said no House is completely, 100% pure. Only the Targs fussed about those matters and even then their blood isn't 100% pure either. Yeah the Tullys probably have some Andal blood but the Arryns have no first men blood or at least very little. I am not saying that marrying an Arryn is a bad thing I am just saying a possible reason why they wouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barty Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 1) I sincerely doubt that any House is pure. Certainly not for Houses as old as theirs. 2) The Starks and Arryns had been at war for a thousand years. One that they lost and ended with an Invasion of White Harbor and the Wolf Den being burnt down. The Arryns are a powerful House. Probably wealthier and secures the and right next to them. Thats just plain wrong. The war did not end with the Wolf's den - that was just one battle. The Starks IIRC replied by burning hundreds of Arynn ships in the Gulltown harbor. It might be argued that the Arynns won though the Maester clearly states that the case was of the Starks losing interest in fighting over what amounted to nothing but rocks. And this war is thousands of years old - before Brandon the burner burnt his fleet or White harbor was even founded. Hardly good enough reason to not marry into a powerful family. The Andal bloodline seems to be the much more likely for resisting this match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 House Royce is probably the second or third strongest House in the Vale and has been for thousands of years. Chances are that the Arryn's and Royces have married more than once. Aside from that, keeping "blood purity" is likely less important than geopolitical security. @Barty I know that, but the point is it lasted a long time and they eventually lost. An Arryn/Stark match is good for both families, despite both being "pure". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barty Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I actually have a crackpot theory about this marriage and the supposed Stark resistance to it. Torrhen's sons might be in on Jonos Arryn's rebellion. They were clearly anti Targ and plotting rebellion themselves. Maybe they wanted to find out how the IT would react and tried a test case with the Vale. They knew that Ronnel was about to die/be deposed so he was clearly not a good match Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greenseer Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 House Royce is probably the second or third strongest House in the Vale and has been for thousands of years. Chances are that the Arryn's and Royces have married more than once. Aside from that, keeping "blood purity" is likely less important than geopolitical security. If they had intermarried with first men houses like house Royce at all or even a few times they wouldn't be considered the purest Andal house. And keeping blood purity was important for a lot of people throughout history, you have to understand that how people think now and how people thought back then are very different, so in a lot of cases what we think is more important differs from what they would think is more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 It was important for a lot of people, but it never really happens. If you have people of different ethnicities or races living together, they're going to mix. The only way to keep it from happening is to completely separate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greenseer Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 It was important for a lot of people, but it never really happens. If you have people of different ethnicities or races living together, they're going to mix. The only way to keep it from happening is to completely separate them. In history it happened a lot, noble families wanted to keep their bloodlines pure so they wouldn't marry people different from them or from different ethnicities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 1) And? Again. Marrying an Arryn is one of the best possible matches for the Starks. 2) Giving them the New Gift is one thing the south did for the Watch. Besides that, aren't a good many of the Nights Watch people from outside the North. Pyke, Samwell Tarly, Donal Noye, Thorne... even the Frey's sent someone. 1) Andals are the Andal-ist house in Westeros. While talking blood politics can get a bit 'master race'-ish the Starks like to keep to First Men houses. I don't believe they did this because they were like Targs and believe all others are impure, rather they marry those who will respect the religion and culture of the North they fought to preserve. The Arryns may have Royce and Redfort blood now but their culture is in no way affected by the First Men. The Eyrie doesn't have a Weirwood for that reason symbolically (narratively it was about the height). I do wonder how they got the Weirwood throne, was it King Robar Royce's? 2) The New Gift was Stark land the Starks were 'encouraged' to give away. Bit of a cheek when the Northern Lords share their harvests with the watch and their sons. How is Samwell Tarly an example of the south sending their best and brightest? His dad wanted him dead. Compare that to King Theon Stark volunteering to go to the Watch to live out his days battling wildings after a life crushing Andals or Benjen's words about the watch. Benjen was right about the Watch and Jon is learning that. It is a noble institution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 No. It really didn't. It was talked about, but mixing did happen. Certainly among ethnicities and even races. 1) So did the Arryns. The point is marrying an Arryn is politically one of the best matches for the Starks. Far more than blood purity, and seeing as a medieval wife is subordinate to her husband, it doesn't necessarily have to change anything. 2) Again, if the Starks love the Nights Watch they should be totally willing to help it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 No. It really didn't. It was talked about, but mixing did happen. Certainly among ethnicities and even races. 1) So did the Arryns. The point is marrying an Arryn is politically one of the best matches for the Starks. Far more than blood purity, and seeing as a medieval wife is subordinate to her husband, it doesn't necessarily have to change anything. 2) Again, if the Starks love the Nights Watch they should be totally willing to help it. 1) That hasn't mattered. That is how the south became Andalised. The old houses married Andal women. The women influence the children, the children marry more Andals, and slowly their heritage faded away. They took the religion of their wives and their mothers, not of their fathers and forefathers. We know the Tullys are First Men who fought with the Blackwoods for the preservation of the Old Faith in the Riverlands even though they didn't follow it. The Starks don't really do politics. 2) And they do. But when you and your friends are doing 90% off the giving and others give spare change every now and again you are going to get annoyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 1) Um... nope. Lan's female descendant married an Andal man. 2) The Nights Watch is a Northern thing primarily. 3) Do they give 90%. Aren't most of the recruits from outside of the North? Did Northmen come to the Watches aid or was it Stannis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat of the Rivers Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 In history it happened a lot, noble families wanted to keep their bloodlines pure so they wouldn't marry people different from them or from different ethnicities. In the books the Targaryens married the Arryns and the Martells yet people still refer to them as "the blood of the dragon". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrick Eddon Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 1) Um... nope. Lan's female descendant married an Andal man. 2) The Nights Watch is a Northern thing primarily. 3) Do they give 90%. Aren't most of the recruits from outside of the North? Did Northmen come to the Watches aid or was it Stannis? Starks have always been good to the NW as we see in AGOT . No Northmen come to the Watches aid because there's no Starks to lead them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 2) And they do. But when you and your friends are doing 90% off the giving and others give spare change every now and again you are going to get annoyed. The Wall benefits the North the most, it is not surprising that they contribute more than any other region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 1) Um... nope. Lan's female descendant married an Andal man. 2) The Nights Watch is a Northern thing primarily. 3) Do they give 90%. Aren't most of the recruits from outside of the North? Did Northmen come to the Watches aid or was it Stannis? 1) And all the rest? One example doesn't negate a pattern and actually supports it, don't marry Andals, your cullture will go kaput. 2) The Nights Watch 'Protects the Realms of Men'. It was built after the Long Night, to guard against Others massacring everyone. Not wilding raids. 3) From what we are told the Nights Watch gets convicts and unwanteds from South of the neck. Besides Waymar Royce who seems to have been sent by Royce tradition as a third son, similar to the Stark tradition. The Royce words being 'We Remember' and no, one house doesn't make a pattern. They are sustained by money made from taxing residents of the Gifts and they are thinning due to wildings. The Northerners sustain the watch when the money runs out with their own food. It is not fair to bring up the reaction to the Watch's call, the North had that little thing called the Red Wedding and their Lord and King have been murdered. There is no Stark in Winterfell to answer the call. The Wall benefits the North the most, it is not surprising that they contribute more than any other region. We have no evidence of other regions giving anything but their menaces to society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 2) The Nights Watch 'Protects the Realms of Men'. It was built after the Long Night, to guard against Others massacring everyone. Not wilding raids. No one has believed in the Others for thousands of years. The Others have not been a threat, Wildlings have. Brandon Stark built the Wall, it benefits the North more than it does Southern Kingdoms so they contribute more to it than say Dorne does. It is hardly surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 @ANV 1) We don't know about all of the rest, but they probably married Andals repeatedly over several thousand years. And again, geopolitical security is far more important. Even the Targs married non-Valyrians. 2) And primarily defends Northmen. The North is almost as big as the rest of Westeros combined. The Others would have to get through them first before getting to the rest of the Kingdoms so, yes... it is primarily defending the North. 3) So what if they send criminals? A good many of them turn out to be good Watchmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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