Why did the north not declare independence after the Dance/Death of the Dragons?

[Bironic]

Is this story in the Princess and the Queen?

No in TWOIAF, it's mentioned that Cregan marched an army to Kingslanding after the dance of dragons was (almost) over.

Because being a part of the seve kigdoms is good for the North and the Nights' Watch.

Explain that: how is it good? how is it good for the nights watch: when aegon conquered Westeros there were 10000 men in the NW, 300 years later less than 1000. So definitely not good for the NW.

For the north the situation is less clear: Aegon V helped the north/NW during the hard winter of 233 but he seems to be a quite unusual ruler. during the first 2 centuries AC the targaryens didn't seem to be of much help for the starks.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

There's no reason to think they weren't (especially seeing as the premise of this thread is asking why the Starks stayed in the Seven Kingdoms; Cregan obviously didn't think he'd gotten a raw deal).

I guess I don't think it was ever an option for Cregan to leave. I distrust Yandal, I don't know his leanings. Would we take a comment about Sansa being 'most generously treated' by Maester Pycelle at face value without knowing who Pycelle is?

From the description of the hour of the wolf, it seems Cregan was the type of man to take his compensation as he pleased and leave, while the Targs just wanted him gone. He had Kings Landing on its knees, shellshocked, and then left so quickly there could be no countering him.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

He became a kneeler .

[Lord Lannister]

I would assume the answer would be the same reason Robb's attempt at a Northern Kingdom failed: they can't fight the rest of Westeros by themselves.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Explain that: how is it good? how is it good for the nights watch: when aegon conquered Westeros there were 10000 men in the NW, 300 years later less than 1000. So definitely not good for the NW.

For the north the situation is less clear: Aegon V helped the north/NW during the hard winter of 233 but he seems to be a quite unusual ruler. during the first 2 centuries AC the targaryens didn't seem to be of much help for the starks.

There was also a hard winter after the Dance which greatly hurt the North. They were in no position to claim independence and they most likely got some help during the Winter from a grateful Aegon III and the Manderly who was his Regent.

Being independent against a united South is not worth the cost. They lose out on trade they now need to shoulder the entire cost of the Nights Watch as well as now supplying all the men needed to man it.

They also need a standing army in the South of their region and will also have to greatly improve their defenses on both coasts as well as maintain a Navy. These are all costly and money is needed in the North for more important things like surviving Winter.

Like the Ironborn, independence for the North is only good if every other region follows suit. If it is just those two small nations against a superpower then they doomed to fail.

[TheNinjaDC]

Times were relatively peaceful, and they were left alone for the most part save taxes.

Declaring independence would mean a long war, and thousands dead. Not to mention they would be breaking their vows, which they do actually take seriously. There really was no major trigger until Robert's rebellion that made the war for independence worth it, when Aery's essentially called for house Stark to be wiped out.

That said, the South could never take the North. A united Westeros with dragons couldn't take & hold Dorne. The North would be worse. Sure they would make inroads, take White Harbor, and have the IB attack the West coast, but there is no way you could reliably take the whole North before Winter comes, and the field of fire is forgotten for the fields of ice. Even show Cersei knows this. But like with Dorne, the costs would be high(astronomic), in silver and men.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

That said, the South could never take the North. A united Westeros with dragons couldn't take & hold Dorne. The North would be worse.

I don't know about this. Before Aegons Conquest you might have had a point, but the smallfolk of the North have had 300 years under a Southern King and have accepted it, there would not be the same resistance there was in Dorne(even Dorne would now be a lot easier to take).

You also have the richest and one of the most populated regions of the North, White Harbor, under Andal rule for the last 1,000 years.

And while the North can afford to have poor relations with one or two of their Southern neighbors, they can't afford to piss them all off as they rely on the South for harsh winters.

[Minstral]

I don't know about this. Before Aegons Conquest you might have had a point, but the smallfolk of the North have had 300 years under a Southern King and have accepted it, there would not be the same resistance there was in Dorne(even Dorne would now be a lot easier to take).

You also have the richest and one of the most populated regions of the North, White Harbor, under Andal rule for the last 1,000 years.

And while the North can afford to have poor relations with one or two of their Southern neighbors, they can't afford to piss them all off as they rely on the South for harsh winters.

Bear with me for a second... I my thought process has a little too much influence from alcohol. As I recall there was a lot of cheering form the peasants around winterfell were supplying a lot of cheers for the Starks all the way back in AGOT, it is possible they are entirley ignorant as to who is king half a continent away. They know the Starks much more intimately then the supposed king they answer too. Whereas places like White Harbor would be more familiar with the king who sits his ass on the Iron Throne because his influence is felt much more.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Bear with me for a second... I my thought process has a little too much influence from alcohol. As I recall there was a lot of cheering form the peasants around winterfell were supplying a lot of cheers for the Starks all the way back in AGOT, it is possible they are entirley ignorant as to who is king half a continent away. They know the Starks much more intimately then the supposed king they answer too. Whereas places like White Harbor would be more familiar with the king who sits his ass on the Iron Throne because his influence is felt much more.

What applies to the people of Winterfell and the far away Kings in Kings Landing applies to the people of the Dreadfort/Katstark/Skagos and their far away Overlords in Winterfell.

Your average smallfolk is not bothered about who they are serving.

The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are

[Talleyrand]

Why would he? Lord Paramounts are basically kings in all but name in their own domains, especially one as far away and insular as the North. And trade and travel is far easier with other places in the same country than it is with foreign nations. And this way they don't have a rather large and powerful possible enemy to the south.

[Lion of the West]

Because separatism is a recent phenomenon in the North. People are reading history backwards.

[David Selig]

That said, the South could never take the North. A united Westeros with dragons couldn't take & hold Dorne. The North would be worse.

That's because Dornish actually care about their independence a lot. And not just the high lords, but most people there. There are no indications of such spirit in the North at all. A few high nobles came with the idea of Robb proclaiming independence. None of the small folk seem to care. Nobody rebelled when Tohren bend the knee.

[Lee-Sensei]

1) Were they forced to marry an Arryn? Either way, that's actually one of the best matches a Stark could get.

2) I'd think that more than anyone else, the Northmen would want to help strengthen the Nights Watch.

Do you have any more examples of Northern "suffering" under the IT?

[Acnologia Targaryen]

well cregan did make a pack and most northerners honour those type of things. There was that horrible winter that the throne helped them out with too and why risk an unnecessary war.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Because separatism is a recent phenomenon in the North. People are reading history backwards.

No it isn't, there was a company of people so angry at Torrhen they left Westeros rather than submit. Torrhen's sons wanted to fight back too after he knelt. It seems like it was always uneasy. Cregan after all goes south and is angry he missed a war. Similarly, all those Northerners who didn't get to fight for their independence, its the northern way of things. I always think they were angry kneelers. Exemplified in Sansa's wedding, where she does not kneel to Tyrion. They are after all of the same basic historic culture as the wildings and the Ironborn.

1) Were they forced to marry an Arryn? Either way, that's actually one of the best matches a Stark could get.

2) I'd think that more than anyone else, the Northmen would want to help strengthen the Nights Watch.

Do you have any more examples of Northern "suffering" under the IT?

Rhaenys tried to force the Starks to marry and Arryn to 'bring them in to the rest of the Kingdoms', as the Northerners are isolationist and different. Likely she wanted some kind of religious conversion to happen as had happened with the Andal marriages in the south. Religion is one of the big ways they are separate.

They do want to strengthen the Nights Watch and they do, but the south does little to nothing for the Nights Watch. They send their undesirables there, not money, not food. The North sustains the watch anyway.

[Barty]

There were northerners who fought in the war. Why would they want indipendence?

Up until the fiasco with Lyanna and Rhaegar, and Rickard and Brandons executions the relationship between the North and the iron throne was not that bad. The North had years of peace under the Iron Thrones rule, other than losing a crown, house Stark had no reason to resent the Targaryens. They had brought peace and unity to the realm, the likes of which had never been seen before. None of Torren's men died when he surrendered to Aegon, and the dragon kings and queens treated the north fairly and respected their rights well enough.

I can't see any reason to want indipendence. It would basically mean fighting all six kingdoms.

The only realm that would want indipendence would be the iron islands.

It always suprised me that while raids took place during Targ rule, the Ironborn never rebelled.

No they werent. For most of the first century of Targ rule the relations between the North and the IT were uneasy. The Great Jaehaerys the Conciliator only made things worse apparently.

[Barty]

That's because Dornish actually care about their independence a lot. And not just the high lords, but most people there. There are no indications of such spirit in the North at all. A few high nobles came with the idea of Robb proclaiming independence. None of the small folk seem to care. Nobody rebelled when Tohren bend the knee.

Isnt there?? The company of the Rose is formed by the northerners who refused to bend the knee to the Targs.

[Lee-Sensei]

1) And? Again. Marrying an Arryn is one of the best possible matches for the Starks.

2) Giving them the New Gift is one thing the south did for the Watch. Besides that, aren't a good many of the Nights Watch people from outside the North. Pyke, Samwell Tarly, Donal Noye, Thorne... even the Frey's sent someone.

[Ser Greenseer]

1) And? Again. Marrying an Arryn is one of the best possible matches for the Starks.

Not really, the Starks like to keep that first men bloodline pure and marrying an Arryn (which is the purest andal house) will screw that up.

[Cat of the Rivers]

Not really, the Starks like to keep that first men bloodline pure and marrying an Arryn (which is the purest andal house) will screw that up.

The Starks aren't Targs. And if so why was Brandon going to marry Catelyn?

The Arryns are a powerful and ancient house plus having them located near is a great thing to have in an ally.