How does magic work in A Song Of Ice And Fire?

[Ratmancampidori]

Over the past few days I've repeatedly read over awoiaf, the wiki and parts of the book along with pages in this wiki but I can't figure out how magic seems to function in GRRM's world. Is it Genetic or is it learned? What types are there? How does religion play in to it? I can't seem to find any threads explaining it and I'm wondering if anyone on here can?

[Vikingkingq]

1. Genetic or learned - seemingly both. Valyrian sorcerers interbred to increase their magical potential, but there's sorcerers in dozens of cultures who don't have anything to do with Valyria, Mirri Maz Duur learned sorcery from Marwyn, etc.

2. Types - blood magic, fire magic (both Valyrian, although the first seems nigh-universal), water magic (Rhoynar), earth magic (the Children), warlock illusions (possibly the same thing as glamour, possibly not), necromancy, divination, whatever the glass candles are categorized as, shadowbinding, aeromancy, alchemy and black alchemy, greensight and skinchanging, R'hlloric magic, the Faceless Men's face magic, etc.

3. Religion seems to play a fairly big role in it, although not universally. The Qohoric god's blood sacrifice seems to be associated with their mastery of Valyrian steel, the cult of R'hllor clearly has working magic (and seemingly even non-initiates like Beric Dondarrion can invoke the magic on their own if R'hllor is with them), Patchface seems to be a prophet of the Drowned God even if Aeron is a fake, the Old Gods are indistinguishable from greensight, etc.

[Ratmancampidori]

Okay, does genetics play in to it for everything. Like did Marwyn and Mirri Maz Duur have to posses certain genetic traits first to learn or can anyone do it with enough patience?

[TheSovereignGrave]

I don't think we really know that yet.

[Lord Varys]

Some things seems to be genetic. For instance, as skinchanging and greenseeing seem to be a trait you inherit, possibly due to Chindren/human marriages in the past.

Valyrian dragonriding seems to be the result of a blood magic link going back into the age of the Freehold, suggesting that the original magical link was not a genetic trait.

Religion seems to using magic rather than actually causing magic. Thoros and Mel can work magical spells which, in turn, convince many people that their belief may actually match reality (just as Jesus' alleged miracle-working supposedly convinced a lot of people that he was special). But this does not necessarily mean that R'hllor (or any gods) actually exists and help those people to do this magic. It's actually much more likely (and seems to be the case) that generally magic is more like a craft you can learn if you have the talent.

[Free Northman Reborn]

It is all powered by blood magic. All of it.

The power comes from the life force sacrificed by living things, represented by their blood.

So any apparent genetic link to magical talent is just coincidental to the original bloodline to which a particular magical ability was "grafted", through a blood magic spell in the ancient past.

And where no magic was ingrained in a bloodline in the ancient past, spells can still be cast by making new blood sacrifices to power the magic. This can be done by someone who is a learned practitioner, even if they have no inherited magical bloodline.

Furthermore, while blood sacrifice powers magic, this power manifests in the many different branches of magic we see in the series, from Fire magic to Earth magic, Water magic, Shadow magic etc.

All of it powered by the life force of living things.

It is all blood magic.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I think it's mostly learned.

(Moqorro needed a silver or bronze knife and sang a song while "healing" Vic's arm.

Melisandre dissolved Mance's glamor with a word. IIRC she prayed something before looking into the fires.

Shade of the evening is a mix of various stuff.

Songs are often associated with magic...

and of course some kind of sacrifice is common, be it a bastard boy or extreme pain )

So songs, words, certain metals, sacrifice and some ingredients are needed for magical rituals/potions.

I think it's like an art. Hence Yandel says both bright and dark arts are seen in the Reach. "Bright arts" are poetry, singing, mummership, painting etc. "Dark arts" are all kind of magic.

GRRM says magic must be unpredictable, dangerous and mysterious.

As for types... the list is long tbh.

We have seen/heard about fire magic, blood magic, water magic, skinchaning and greensight, shadowbinding, shapechanging (faceless men trick), alchemy and black alchemy, aeromancy, dreamwalking, warlock's magic (can't fit an element here), divination, necromancy, dragonbinding... the list probably goes on.

[Mr Hodor]

Dragons said: "let there be magic"

[Vikingkingq]

Religion seems to using magic rather than actually causing magic. Thoros and Mel can work magical spells which, in turn, convince many people that their belief may actually match reality (just as Jesus' alleged miracle-working supposedly convinced a lot of people that he was special). But this does not necessarily mean that R'hllor (or any gods) actually exists and help those people to do this magic. It's actually much more likely (and seems to be the case) that generally magic is more like a craft you can learn if you have the talent.

Counter-example: Beric Dondarrion uses magic without being an initiate of R'hllor.

[jsberry]

All "magic" in ASOIAF appears to be either "wordly" like biology (dragons), technology (Valeryian steel), or slight-of-hand (fake wizards in Qarth); or directly related to two magical / "otherwordly" sources: (1) R'hllor the Fire God (whose magic is clearly very real as performed by Belric and Melisandre) and (2) something in the North (greensight, warging, ice zombies).

Is there any evidence that The Seven or the Drowned God actually exist or affect the world in any way?

[Vikingkingq]

All "magic" in ASOIAF appears to be either "wordly" like biology (dragons), technology (Valeryian steel), or slight-of-hand (fake wizards in Qarth); or directly related to two magical / "otherwordly" sources: (1) R'hllor the Fire God (whose magic is clearly very real as performed by Belric and Melisandre) and (2) something in the North (greensight, warging, ice zombies).

Is there any evidence that The Seven or the Drowned God actually exist or affect the world in any way?

Uh...Valyrian steel isn't worldly. It involves magical spells and quite possibly human sacrifice.

And you're leaving out a lot of sources besides your two "otherworldly." Rhoynish water magic, for example.

And the main evidence for the existence of the Drowned God is Patchface.

[H0X0]

* or directly related to two magical / "otherwordly" sources: (1) R'hllor the Fire God (whose magic is clearly very real as performed by Belric and Melisandre) and (2) something in the North (greensight, warging, ice zombies).

*

This doesn't really follow. What about persons of clearly different faiths practicing with the same magic (e.g. Mel and FM both do glamours)

[Lord Varys]

Vikingkingq,

actually, no. Beric Dondarrion does exactly the same thing as Thoros usually does when he resurrects Catelyn. The only difference with him is that he passes on the fire magic that revived (and possibly sustains) him rather than creating new fire magic to resurrect Catelyn. Apparently the magical framework there is that you can pass on this magic.

I imagine Beric either wanted to die, and the magic granted him that wish, or Beric did not use the right prayer (which should essentially be a spell rather than a prayer) to create the necessary fire magic to resurrect Catelyn while staying himself alive.

That the R'hllor stuff Thoros can suddenly do are actually spells disguised as or mistaken for prayers is obvious, as Thoros is neither a learned sorcerer nor a pious Red Priest. He is just some guy who has memorized certain prayers, nothing more. And this fire magic most likely only is suddenly working because the dragons are back (just as other pyromancy stuff - wild fire - is now much easier made).

[Vikingkingq]

Vikingkingq,

actually, no. Beric Dondarrion does exactly the same thing as Thoros usually does when he resurrects Catelyn. The only difference with him is that he passes on the fire magic that revived (and possibly sustains) him rather than creating new fire magic to resurrect Catelyn. Apparently the magical framework there is that you can pass on this magic.

I imagine Beric either wanted to die, and the magic granted him that wish, or Beric did not use the right prayer (which should essentially be a spell rather than a prayer) to create the necessary fire magic to resurrect Catelyn while staying himself alive.

That the R'hllor stuff Thoros can suddenly do are actually spells disguised as or mistaken for prayers is obvious, as Thoros is neither a learned sorcerer nor a pious Red Priest. He is just some guy who has memorized certain prayers, nothing more. And this fire magic most likely only is suddenly working because the dragons are back (just as other pyromancy stuff - wild fire - is now much easier made).

Beric Dondarrion can do the blood-into-fire spell as well as resurrecting Catelyn. And at no point do we see him learning the specific prayers that Thoros knows.

[SeanF]

Human sacrifice, preferably by live burning, seems to generate great magical power, whether in the hands of adepts, like Melisandre and Moqorro, or in the hands of an amateur who performs the right spell instinctively, like Dany. Arguably, the Valyrians burned slaves to make their own magic work.

[jsberry]

So Patchface survived a shipwreck, how does that prove the existence or powers of the Drowned God (who has not intervened on behalf of the Ironborn who actually worship him)?

And is there any evidence The Seven are real at all?

[TheSovereignGrave]

So Patchface survived a shipwreck, how does that prove the existence or powers of the Drowned God (who has not intervened on behalf of the Ironborn who actually worship him)?

And is there any evidence The Seven are real at all?

Well he constantly talks about things below the sea, and while it could just be the rambling of a madman even Melisandre knows there's something more to Patchface than that. And at present, the Drowned God is really the most likely candidate for a fool drowning and coming back a mad prophet.

[Lord Varys]

We don't know whether Beric learn the spells/prayers Thoros used to bring him back. But it is very likely, as he has hung out with him for months. Even if he did not, Beric managed to pass on the fire magic keeping him alive to Catelyn's corpse, suggesting that every 'fire wight' has effectively passing on this 'gift' by kissing a corpse with intent...

[Mithras]

1. Blood sacrifice (live burning etc.): We saw several examples of this.

2. Sacrificing seeds: We didnot see it directly. The first example is the Night's King who sacrificed his seeds to the Others. Patchface is said to sacrifice his seeds in order to breath under the sea. Varys' castration is another form of sacrificing seeds. There was also a rumour about Rohanne Webber that she sold her newly born children for dark arts.

[SeanF]

1. Blood sacrifice (live burning etc.): We saw several examples of this.

2. Sacrificing seeds: We didnot see it directly. The first example is the Night's King who sacrificed his seeds to the Others. Patchface is said to sacrifice his seeds in order to breath under the sea. Varys' castration is another form of sacrificing seeds. There was also a rumour about Rohanne Webber that she sold her newly born children for dark arts.

Many cultures have viewed the sacrifice of one's own children as being particularly desirable. The Canaanites would bury newborn babies alive in clay pots as gifts to the gods. The Phoenicians and Carthaginians burned children alive, to obtain the favour of Moloch. The Aztecs sacrificed children to Tlaloc By giving up one's own child, one is giving up something precious.

Craster gives up his sons to the Others. Dany gave up Rhaego.