These are the Undisputed Reasons why Jaime is less than scum

[chrisdaw]

By the same token, nobody was going to punish Loras as they likely believed the RG he slaughtered were either party to, or covering for, Brienne's killing of Renly. Not many folk would have considered that anyone but her and/or Cat Stark could have been responsible.

Because it'd make so much sense that they'd kill Renly, send Brienne on her way and then just all stand around and wait for Loras to show up and kill them.

[Lady Meliora]

Due to the long but eloquent post, I will not quote it; however, I shall make it clear that it is for JonCon...

Cersei probably did tell Jaime that she wanted his kids, not Robert's. And yes, she did have kids from Jaime to spite Robert, but Jaime probably knew that and wanted Cersei to have his children. Also, I'm sure Jaime does have genuine fatherly feelings for his kids, but he knows that he mustn't show it.

Jaime and Cersei probably had sex a lot while she was already pregnant too, so Cersei would be unlikely to become pregnant again. They could've also used moon tea too, like you said.

To continue, Cersei was right when telling Jaime that he shouldn't hold Joffrey because it was too dangerous and she didn't want him to become too attach to him. Moreover, he shouldn't have had intercourses with Cersei because it was treason. I do not care if people are saying that he was in love with her, it's still wrong.

And the children were born because of Jaime, so it is his fault .

Jaime couldve easily said the children are not rightful heis, then run to the Wall and take the black, but that's the honorable thing to do, and Jaime is far from honorable.

That's a lot of assumptions to make (and an awful lot of probablys). We have no textual evidence that Jaime knew Cersei was trying to get pregnant by him. We can just as easily say that Cersei probably lied to Jaime about drinking moon tea and concealed her attempts to get pregnant until Joffrey was born looking like a tiny Lannister. We do know that Jaime is more invested in the relationship than Cersei is (she's his only partner, whereas she's slept with several men, which Jaime can't believe when Tyrion first tells him), so why can't we assume that she was the primary mover and shaker in that relationship? I'm not excusing Jaime, and I think it WOULD have been more honorable to have taken the black, but I also don't think it's fair to say that it's ALL his fault when Cersei is at least equally culpable, if not more so.

[Aemond's Eye]

Because it'd make so much sense that they'd kill Renly, send Brienne on her way and then just all stand around and wait for Loras to show up and kill them.

Whereas from a logical point of view, Loras would totally accept that they had no knowledge or involvement of what happened to Renly - either that or he'd assume they're incompetent. I'm not exactly arguing that they'd kill Renly and hang around - I've read the books so, y'know, I'm aware that's not what happens - but few folk are likely to not understand or even agree with what Loras did at that time.

Considering where the Rainbow Guard were positioned, it'd be hard to believe that someone could have killed Renly without having had to get past them or had some help from them. We know otherwise from reading the books and knowing about the 'shadow baby,' but few folk seem willing to believe Brienne. Loras doesn't even consider it possible until Jaime sends him to speak to her - at that point he seems full of remorse.

[Jehane]

I know I will get a shrapnel of criticisms from this example, but nonetheless I will say it. Adolfo Hitler was a terrible man without question, but I'm 100% sure he did some good deeds while he was in power. Was he a trouble soul who was confuse because he got rejected from an art school for Jew, or was he simply a crazy man who let his emotions get the better of him. I'm sure there is someone who can make a case for Hitler like people are making a case for Jaime.

Hitler killed loads of people, and Jaime did too (I know he's a fictional character). Jaime basically started the war of the five kings, and even when his hand got chopped off he still continued to fight for the imposter Baratheon, that's F up.

Sorry, but if you're going to compare a fictional character to Hitler, I can't take you seriously. That's ridiculous.

[Elia Sand]

I frankly believe that all of the affirmation have been and are quite disputable.

Starting with judging the morality of Jaime's love.

It is a very abusive behaviour, irrespective of both our time's morality and the feudal, chivalry times morality. From Tristano and Isotta to Lancelot and Geneve, every best knight of a king in any knigth-time chanson got in love with his liege's wife, and true love cannot be rejected, it gets to the heart of the loved one too, if it is true, in the mindset of the writers of those stories.

Jaime is too the product of a chivalrous society, and he really didn't do anything to his king that Lancelot didn't first to his.

Jaime has the bad luck to having born in Westeros, where moral challenges are a bit steeper, and he got in love with his sister. Bu he is in a consensual relationship with an adult. That's not a crime. It is a crime to beat your wife because you are the king. And we must admit that Jaime had instincts of respecting his duty of protecting women, even from their husbands, in the case of at least one of Aerys's rapes of his wife.

As all the Kingsguard, Jaime had an oath as a knight before being able to take his ones as a kingsguard. We don't knwo what exactly do the Kingsguard swear, but we do know that knightly oaths of service, in normal cases, do include a clause for the liege lord not to give to the serving knight tasks that would dishonor them. We saw that when Brienne took her oath of service with Catelyn. It is difficult to argue then that a king could ask any behaviour from his kingsguard that would ashame a knight. To make a totally unrelated example, I believe it is quite clear that no king could ask to the kingsguard to beat a girl in public for being a sister of an enemy. Or to kill her. Or to kill thousands of boys, girls, men and women, old and youngs, totally unrelated to any action taken by anybody against the King, and being at that moment under the King's protection.

Not to recognize this simple fact would mean, for a character inside of the narrative, to choose his position of privilege and respect inside a famous, rich institution that grants prestige to yourself and your House over your (sacred) oath and duties. It would mean to uphold your social privileges over your ethical behaviour. There is actually no way - for omniscent readers - to condemn Jaime for his behaviour stopping the king from burning the city. It was his duty as a knight and it was the right thing to do. Jaime protected the innocent, no matter what the personal cost. He did pay with a stain on his name, because of both the lack of omniscence of the in-world characters and Jaime's shyness on enlightening other people about his late king's miseries, protecting his name and memory in a way. In this light we could condemn Jaime for his behaviour with the king, though. For not stopping Aerys's rapes of his wife: voicing with his fellow kingsguards was not enough, it would have been his duty to up the stakes against them, if needed, to stop the king or die trying. No metter how much hipocrisy was going on into "the best kingsguard ever" about their role as knights. I'm with Tyrion when he said to Meryn Trant that it is their duty to protect the king from himself also.

Someone above exposed a point of view I share about the Bran businnes. I don't agree with the voices giving the faults just to Cersei, abusive relationship or not. Jaime wouldn't also: it is a trait of his character to take responsibility for his gestures, even when they are misunderstood. When Catelyn asks him why did he push Bran, he said: "because I wanted him to die". Jaime pushed Bran slowly, deliberately and after a moment of thinking. "I heard you when you said it the first time" he said. And he agreed, and pushed the boy. I really wish to myself and to any of my readers here to never ever find themselves in the position to choose between the life of an innocent and the life of three children. Of yours. And yourself and the love of your life, and all of the innocents that would end up dieing in a war between the Throne and the Westerlands. Pushing, you are responsible of a murder, not pushing you are indirectly allowing of a greater number of disgreaces, but not committing them yourself directly. A very small quantity of hipocrisy would allow you to sleep well by night. Jaime chooses, and chooses to bear the burden of direct responsibility instead of seeing his love and her children die, and his father fighting a civil war he is bound to lose against tthe rest of the continent. And there is people finding hipocrisy in "the things he does for love".

But omniscent readers shouldn't be happy with this reconstruction of what happened in that tower. People goes on saying that "everybody could have caught Jaime and Cersei". It is not true, they were hiding on the top of an abandoned tower, with no chance to be seen from anywhere into or outside of the castle. For what we know, with closed doors and loudy stairs to separate themselves from the outside space. How did Bran get there? "Just" climbing like no one climbs in his lands? There is not a parkour community in Westeros, and if it was just a coincidence... Bran was there because the three eyes crow pulled him to go there. To see what he saw. To put in motion what happened. It is quite relevant to understand who the three eyed crow is. Because if the three eyed crow was Bloodraven (I don't think so, but he could be) Jaime and Cersei would have been framed by a sorcerer they don't know anthing of to push the boy from a window to help him opening the boy's third eye, for the sorceror's own needs. If the Three Eyed Crow is a personification of the Morrigan, as Black Crow suggested sometimes, than Jaime and Cersei were being framed by a god of the destiny. And if the Three Eyed Crow is Bran himself, guiding his younger self from the future of the tree-net... what would have happened there? Jaime probably would cut the debate short, and tell that, for what he knew, he was taking a free decision there, and his decision was to push. But still.

Resuming: I am taking part in this numerous disputation of the "undisputed" reasons in the thread title. This alone demonstrates that those are not undisputed reasons.

In the OP there is a reference to Jaime being the worst person because he broke oaths. Apart of the arguments in the previous parts of my post in which I argue that Jaime was not strictly breaking oaths in most of the instances commonly cited to attack him, I argument that, first of all, it is very difficult to find a single adult character in Westeros that didn't break at least an important oath. Second, that Jaime's fellow kingsguard were quite worse human beings than himself, nothwistanding the social recognition that their moral compromises gathered them.

I conclude with the feeling of having shown that Jaime is far from being the worst person in Westeros. And he always had, even when he only related himself with people that caused him to despise and not consider large parts of general population and their perceptions of Jaime's action. Brienne was not an example of what Jaime was not. She was a mirror, someone that actually tried to be a good knight. Jaime always wanted to be a white knight, before he knew that the white knights pardoned rape if it was a royal one.

But this is my personal conclusion, and I understand that others will see things differently. Disputing my claims.

Agree.

[The North]

One of the most interesting storylines (in a series full of them) is the transformation of Jaime from arrogant Lannister scumbag to decent human being who chooses peace over war. Going by pretty much everything we know of him in the first book to give a complete profile of the character is pretty hollow, IMO.

[House Obama]

Okay, I am now back from my vacation to Paris and I shall unleash my wisdom over every opposer to my undisputed, yet accurate reasons why Jaime is scum.

Sorry, but if you're going to compare a fictional character to Hitler, I can't take you seriously. That's ridiculous.

But my comparison fitted the situation, so you are too immature to take me seriously :) .

That's a lot of assumptions to make (and an awful lot of probablys). We have no textual evidence that Jaime knew Cersei was trying to get pregnant by him. We can just as easily say that Cersei probably lied to Jaime about drinking moon tea and concealed her attempts to get pregnant until Joffrey was born looking like a tiny Lannister. We do know that Jaime is more invested in the relationship than Cersei is (she's his only partner, whereas she's slept with several men, which Jaime can't believe when Tyrion first tells him), so why can't we assume that she was the primary mover and shaker in that relationship? I'm not excusing Jaime, and I think it WOULD have been more honorable to have taken the black, but I also don't think it's fair to say that it's ALL his fault when Cersei is at least equally culpable, if not more so.

If Jaime had accidentally gotten Cersei pregnant the first time, I would’ve given him a pass. Wait! I can’t give him a pass because Cersei was Robert’s wife, so he committed high treason by having sex with her. Jaime knew full well what he was doing, but he did not care because he wanted Cersei to himself. Also, as I said before, I love how everyone is just focusing on Jaime and Cersei’s relationship, but are ignoring the other atrocities he committed. Moreover, he still committing the most vile of sin in my opinion: fighting for a farce king, named Tommon Baratheon.

Whereas from a logical point of view, Loras would totally accept that they had no knowledge or involvement of what happened to Renly - either that or he'd assume they're incompetent. I'm not exactly arguing that they'd kill Renly and hang around - I've read the books so, y'know, I'm aware that's not what happens - but few folk are likely to not understand or even agree with what Loras did at that time.

Considering where the Rainbow Guard were positioned, it'd be hard to believe that someone could have killed Renly without having had to get past them or had some help from them. We know otherwise from reading the books and knowing about the 'shadow baby,' but few folk seem willing to believe Brienne. Loras doesn't even consider it possible until Jaime sends him to speak to her - at that point he seems full of remorse.

I completely agree with you mate.

[Jehane]

It's immature to try to prove a point by bringing up Hitler just because you run out of arguments resp. because people dare to contradict your "undisputed" reasons. As this thread proves, those reasons are not undisputed; if they were, there wouldn't be a discussion.

You don't even bother reading every posting in this thread closely. Lots of people have agreed that Jaime's done a lot of terrible things yet you refuse to acknowledge that. Earlier, you complained that people were focusing on Jaime killing Aerys and ignoring all the rest, now you complain that people focus on the relationship between Jaime and Cersei and ignore the rest. If you'd read closely, you'd note that this is not true. I think you're so intent on proving your point (= Jaime is pure evil) that you choose to ignore everything that might be a valid argument against it. You can't even acknowledge that people still like this character despite his obvious flaws because you just want to be right. If that's not immature, I don't know what is.

[Khal Shaggydog]

Killing Aerys - not that bad. Even for a KG, I can still see the justifiable argument for that needing to be done. Dirty deed, but Aerys and the pyromancer had to go.

Keeping his position in the KG? Nope - he should have taken off after that. Still surprised Ned and Jon Arryn didnt force Robert to do that. Not just because they knew how dirty Jaime was, and he was a Lannister, but to retain some honor in the KG, they should have forced him out. Guy is made for the NW.

Post RR, Jaime was just beyond caring about anything. Like a sick, rich nihlist - above the law, but still completely disillusioned with the entire world that all he cared about was being a badass fighter, fucking his sister, and looking down on everyone. Im not saying I dont understand how he became like that, but he's still a sick POS. His dad treated him like a pawn, then Aerys did, his sister did, Robert did, etc etc - he was smart and saw how hypocritical the world was, and just stopped caring.

Throwing Bran out the window? Still horrible, to this day, one of the worst things he did. Having children with his sister? Wow, really bad.

But like in real life, is he truly irredeemable? As much as some people on this list want him to be - he isnt. He is one of the most fascinating characters in the series, for this reason, he has attained some sort of actual moral code since being brought low. He has actually done some things for other people, and regained some idea of meaning in life. It remains to be seen whether he has any remorse for some of his worst acts (killing Aerys, IMO, is not one of his worst acts).

[House Obama]

Killing Aerys - not that bad. Even for a KG, I can still see the justifiable argument for that needing to be done. Dirty deed, but Aerys and the pyromancer had to go.

Keeping his position in the KG? Nope - he should have taken off after that. Still surprised Ned and Jon Arryn didnt force Robert to do that. Not just because they knew how dirty Jaime was, and he was a Lannister, but to retain some honor in the KG, they should have forced him out. Guy is made for the NW.

Post RR, Jaime was just beyond caring about anything. Like a sick, rich nihlist - above the law, but still completely disillusioned with the entire world that all he cared about was being a badass fighter, fucking his sister, and looking down on everyone. Im not saying I dont understand how he became like that, but he's still a sick POS. His dad treated him like a pawn, then Aerys did, his sister did, Robert did, etc etc - he was smart and saw how hypocritical the world was, and just stopped caring.

Throwing Bran out the window? Still horrible, to this day, one of the worst things he did. Having children with his sister? Wow, really bad.

But like in real life, is he truly irredeemable? As much as some people on this list want him to be - he isnt. He is one of the most fascinating characters in the series, for this reason, he has attained some sort of actual moral code since being brought low. He has actually done some things for other people, and regained some idea of meaning in life. It remains to be seen whether he has any remorse for some of his worst acts (killing Aerys, IMO, is not one of his worst acts).

I agree that killing Aerys was not bad, but showing no contrition for doing so was ridiculous. Jamie felt that Ned would’ve not believe him anyways, but still, he should have.

Also, please do not forget that Robert is to blame too, but Robert never treated Jamie like a pawn. In fact, he named Jaime Warden of the East lol. Though, Jaime never used any power that comes along with the title. On Game of Throne (television show), Robert is a jerk to Jaime, but I never got that he was in the book. The only things Robert wanted to do were drink, hunt, sleep, and have sex.

Once again, I love Jaime’s chapters, they are very entertaining. However, I am not blinded by the love of his character to overlook all his transgressions, like breaking the guest’s rights (I’m not saying you’re blinded).

Jamie deserves no sympathy for his crimes, especially sleeping with the wife of the king he sworn to protect. And let be honest here, Tywin does not treat Jaime like a pawn; he treats him like a son. Jaime was fortunate to be born in the richest, and arguably the second greatest house in the realm, with ability to become lord of Casterly Rock, a castle that’s probably the grandest in the kingdoms.

The only did Tywin wanted Jaime to do was take off his white cloak, which he should have done considering he killed his king, which many readers agree to. Jaime and Tyrion were extremely ungrateful for being born a Lannister in my opinion.

I think Jaime even know that he is very fortunate, remember, “By what right does the wolf judges the lion.” Many people think that the quote means that Jaime is saying thaty Ned was no better than him because they both killed many men. But I think the quote means that Jaime views House Lannister as above everyone. The Tywin’s children do take pride in their family, so Jaime probably grew mad at Ned because the wolf in below a lion in the world’s view, and Jamie basically said that it applies to their house too… the Stark are not even the richest family in the North (the Maderly is).

Furthermore, many killers in the world feel regret for their misdeeds, but that doesn’t make their deeds forgivable. There has been killer who killed or raped countless of children, and people screamed that they have changed, but to me they will always be less than scum… like Jaime J

[Khal Shaggydog]

No arguments on Robert being part of the blame also - that guy shirked pretty much ALL responsibility once he was placed on the IT. And it was ultimately his decision to keep Jaime around, and that was just a horrible horrible decision.

Not that I like Cersei (shes terrible), but Jon Arryn was correct that it was a sound political move to marry her. But he should have forced Jaime to take the black for his assassination of Aerys - which would both acknowledge the crime, but also acknowledge the grey nature of the crime.

I also love Jaime's chapters. One of my favorites to read, he is very smart and very aware of his situation for the most part. The sarcastic outer and inner diologue (monologue?) are fantastic.

[House Obama]

No arguments on Robert being part of the blame also - that guy shirked pretty much ALL responsibility once he was placed on the IT. And it was ultimately his decision to keep Jaime around, and that was just a horrible horrible decision.

Not that I like Cersei (shes terrible), but Jon Arryn was correct that it was a sound political move to marry her. But he should have forced Jaime to take the black for his assassination of Aerys - which would both acknowledge the crime, but also acknowledge the grey nature of the crime.

I also love Jaime's chapters. One of my favorites to read, he is very smart and very aware of his situation for the most part. The sarcastic outer and inner diologue (monologue?) are fantastic.

Yep, Robert was beyond lazy lol… he was a good man, but a terrible king.

And of course, Robert marrying Cersei was a great move. And don’t forget that Robert was the most wanted man in the kingdoms, all the women wanted to have him. Cersei was happy to had marry him, until he showed that he loved a corpse more than her.

Robert wanted to appease Tywin by not making Jaime take the black, but should have banned him from the capital at least, or remove his knightship…

I love how Jamie tease himself by saying that he could not even beat a child with a wooden sword lol.

[Aemond's Eye]

Killing Aerys - not that bad. Even for a KG, I can still see the justifiable argument for that needing to be done. Dirty deed, but Aerys and the pyromancer had to go.

Keeping his position in the KG? Nope - he should have taken off after that. Still surprised Ned and Jon Arryn didnt force Robert to do that. Not just because they knew how dirty Jaime was, and he was a Lannister, but to retain some honor in the KG, they should have forced him out. Guy is made for the NW.

Post RR, Jaime was just beyond caring about anything. Like a sick, rich nihlist - above the law, but still completely disillusioned with the entire world that all he cared about was being a badass fighter, fucking his sister, and looking down on everyone. Im not saying I dont understand how he became like that, but he's still a sick POS. His dad treated him like a pawn, then Aerys did, his sister did, Robert did, etc etc - he was smart and saw how hypocritical the world was, and just stopped caring.

Throwing Bran out the window? Still horrible, to this day, one of the worst things he did. Having children with his sister? Wow, really bad.

But like in real life, is he truly irredeemable? As much as some people on this list want him to be - he isnt. He is one of the most fascinating characters in the series, for this reason, he has attained some sort of actual moral code since being brought low. He has actually done some things for other people, and regained some idea of meaning in life. It remains to be seen whether he has any remorse for some of his worst acts (killing Aerys, IMO, is not one of his worst acts).

Ned left King's Landing when Robert refused to treat the rape and murder of Elia and the slaughtering of her children as a crime. I'd imagine he also said Jaime should have been sent to The Wall. I can't remember if it's explicitly said or hinted at, but reading between the lines I think we wanted some punishment for the Lannisters and was pretty disgusted with Robert's response.

Lyanna's death is what reconciled them and, if you believe that R+L=J, then Robert's reaction to what happened to Rhaegar's offpsring would indicate that Ned would want to keep Jon's parentage a secret. All in all, I think Ned left King's Landing not exactly impressed with the king his boyhood friend was going to be.

[lom678]

Fuck Bran, the little shit was spying. Jaime should have sliced his throat open.

[The Bleeding Wolf]

He has done some terrible things and I really hate how he doesn't (didn't?) care about innocent people.

About the incest,he fell in love with the wrong person (his psycho sister) but what do children know?(And he is not the person to care about religion.)

However,I think he can change and it's starting to show.

[House Obama]

He has done some terrible things and I really hate how he doesn't (didn't?) care about innocent people.

About the incest,he fell in love with the wrong person (his psycho sister) but what do children know?(And he is not the person to care about religion.)

However,I think he can change and it's starting to show.

Sure, as I said throughout this thread, a murderer who killed families can change, but his crimes should not be forgotten. What if a Nazi who helped kill a lot of people changed his heart, should we still consider him scum, even though he’s admitted his wrong and vow to not kill any more Jews? The answer is yes, the now-former Nazi is still less than scum for his past sins.

[The Bleeding Wolf]

I wouldn't compare him to a Nazi.I agree that his crimes shouldn't be forgotten but forgiven,maybe if he becomes a better person...

[House Obama]

I wouldn't compare him to a Nazi.I agree that his crimes shouldn't be forgotten but forgiven,maybe if he becomes a better person...

Well let’s compare him to a murderer, who is a conniver and an oath breaker. The murder is currently sleeping with his president’s wife, then gets her pregnant, and says that if her husband ever finds out that he would kill him. Also, the murderer so happens to be the Vice President of a specific country. Then the VP starts a war after the President die and the war is basically all his fault, so he continues to fight for his country. But one day, he wakes up and says, “Hey, I’ve been a jerk that allowed millions of people to die, I feel awful about what I did. But oh well, I going to have to finish this war, even though I know that the thing I’m fighting for is wrong (like Jaime fighting for Tommon).”

Then one day, he finally completed writing his autobiography about his “tough life”, even though he was raised inside a billionaire house (Lannister the richest family), and could get any woman he wanted. He writes about his love with his sister, who was his president’s wife, but express that he grew to hate her down the road.

After he passed, people begin to read his story. His written is so witty and engaging that it’s making readers forget that 50% of the world has been destroyed and must be rebuild. He tells joke about others and himself, which forced readers to like him. However, there are some readers who still focused on his unforgettable transgressions and say, “Hey, why are people overlooking his evil deeds? He basically made a World War.” But supporters of the VP, who named was Jaime, rushed to his defense.

“Yes. We know that he started the World War, but come on gives him some slack, he’s sorry. Vice President Jaime made some awful mistakes doing most of his life, but look, the past two years of his life was very good. He just wanted to keep his son safe, even though his son have no claims to the throne, but come on, what type of father would kill his son to save millions of lives?

Meanwhile, Jaime’s critics are just looked dumbfounded as people still support the man who unleashed Hell on Earth (Westeros).

[Whitering]

Jaime - tried to kill Bran

That's the only bad thing I consider when I think of him, that's it, none of the rest. I'd still send him to hell for just that one act though, so don't think I consider him a paragon of virtue, but ya, he's fun to read, more fun than Tyrion for me.

[The North]

One could argue Bran's fall had nothing to do with the war, only intensified the rivalry between the Starks & Lannisters. Stannis & Renly were going to declare for the throne regardless, due to Joffrey's illegitimacy. Robb declared the North only after his father was beheaded for fighting the same battle as the (true) Baratheons. Balon just took advantage of the chaos for personal gain.

Jaime had little to do with the war that transpired, in the scheme of things.