These are the Undisputed Reasons why Jaime is less than scum

[The Wolves]

One could argue Bran's fall had nothing to do with the war, only intensified the rivalry between the Starks & Lannisters. Stannis & Renly were going to declare for the throne regardless, due to Joffrey's illegitimacy. Robb declared the North only after his father was beheaded for fighting the same battle as the (true) Baratheons. Balon just took advantage of the chaos for personal gain.

Jaime had little to do with the war that transpired, in the scheme of things.

Really?

Jaime along with Cersei planted those seeds of war(Joffedy, Myrcella, and Tommen)everything that happened is a reaction from the twincest and false Royal bastards.

Now people can say but Littlfinger would have started a war anyways but that doesn't matter IMO what matters is that Cersei and Jaime provided the reason and from their pushing Bran, arresting Ned, etc... It begun.

If people can blame Cersei for the war Jaime sure as hell deserves the blame to those are half his false bastards also he stood back and watched as Cersei named them Baratheons and continued to fuck his sister recklessly disregarding their lives.

[milko]

.

[House Obama]

Jaime - tried to kill Bran

That's the only bad thing I consider when I think of him, that's it, none of the rest. I'd still send him to hell for just that one act though, so don't think I consider him a paragon of virtue, but ya, he's fun to read, more fun than Tyrion for me.

Do you really think this is the only crime Jaime is guilty of? I am dumbfounded if you do.

[House Obama]

Really?

Jaime along with Cersei planted those seeds of war(Joffedy, Myrcella, and Tommen)everything that happened is a reaction from the twincest and false Royal bastards.

Now people can say but Littlfinger would have started a war anyways but that doesn't matter IMO what matters is that Cersei and Jaime provided the reason and from their pushing Bran, arresting Ned, etc... It begun.

If people can blame Cersei for the war Jaime sure as hell deserves the blame to those are half his false bastards also he stood back and watched as Cersei named them Baratheons and continued to fuck his sister recklessly disregarding their lives.

I completely agree with you; in fact, I believe that Jaime is the main person at first because he was the person who usually committed the heinous acts. Jaime could’ve ridden to Castle Black and took the Black then sent ravens across Westeros and confessed his sins. But he didn’t, like I said Jaime also should have returned to his cell in Riverrun like the Blackfish said.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Jaimie is a douche 90% of the time and decent 10% of the time. And the decent part he only does if its safe for him like jumping in the bear pit knowing someone would shoot the bear or Killing Aerys when his daddy was right outside the gate. Both things i feel like he should have done but neither one of them was really putting himself in any danger

[Jehane]

I completely agree with you; in fact, I believe that Jaime is the main person at first because he was the person who usually committed the heinous acts. Jaime could’ve ridden to Castle Black and took the Black then sent ravens across Westeros and confessed his sins. But he didn’t, like I said Jaime also should have returned to his cell in Riverrun like the Blackfish said.

He couldn't have done that simply because he's not an honorable man at that time. He should have done that but he's not Ned Stark. Ned would have taken the Black instantly, he'd also returned to his cell in Riverrun because it was honorable. Jaime isn't that kind of man. He's trying to make amends for what he's done; he might be able to redeem himself somewhat but I don't see him surviving and/or having a happy ending. It just wouldn't fit.

[Dofs]

Oh, another of those threads "why many people don't hate Jaime". I really understand why people may hate him, but I can't get how anyone can say that they don't understand why people like him. I start to wonder if these people even read the books, and not the summaries. Jaime is like in top 5 of most loved ASOIAF character, if not higher and it is pretty damn obvious why.

[imaginepageant]

Indisputable reasons, huh? Well, allow me to dispute them.

· Jaime killed Aerys (yes, I know why), then confronted by Ned he showed no contrition for breaking his oath.

Yes, you know why. To save the lives of millions of innocent people. Millions. Why would he have any contrition for breaking an oath when it saved the lives of millions of people? Or is it just that he didn't show any that bothers you? I suppose he could've put on a little act for Ned to soften the blow. That he didn't hardly makes him scum, though.

· He is having an incestuous relationship with his sister

Yes, and at the beginning of the series, it is one of the very few relationships that's actually based on love instead of a political contract. Most wives in the story were sold by their fathers to their husbands with little to no say in the transaction whatsoever.

Catelyn had been bounced over to Ned when his brother, whom she was supposed to marry, died, and didn't even meet Ned until the day of their wedding. Lysa was forced to wed a man older than her own father to secure the alliance between House Tully and House Arryn. Tywin gave Cersei to Robert as some sort of prize and a promise of his loyalty. Sansa was wed—at the age of fourteen, barely after she'd flowered—to Tyrion so that, by extension, Tywin could steal her rights to Winterfell and the North. Daenerys was sold to a warlord who didn't even speak her own language so that her brother might use her husband's army to launch a war.

In my opinion, a consensual relationship built on love and trust that just happens to be incestuous is a much healthier relationship than any of those I've just listed.

And as Jaime says, you can't choose who you love. You can't blame him for loving Cersei.

You can blame him for acting on it, sure. Incest is called "a monstrous sin to both the old gods and the new," after all. But so are a hundred other things that a hundred other characters have done, I'm betting. Robert raped Cersei quite often, it seems. Is that not a monstrous sin? Is that any better than Cersei having consensual sex with a man who happens to be her brother?

· Jaime had sex on Roberts bed with Cersei , while the king was asleep/past out from drinking too much wine. Jaime also said that he would have killed Robert if he awoke during it.

Okay, it is disrespectful to have sex with a man's wife while he's passed out in the same bed (not to mention kind of gross). But allow me to remind you again that Robert raped and beat Cersei, and basically flaunted his own infidelity right in her face and that of the entire kingdom. So I'm not very inclined to defend Robert in this situation, and I certainly don't blame either Cersei or Jaime for wanting a little revenge.

And Jaime said he would've killed Robert if he awoke, but you can't condemn a man for something he said he would do but never actually did. He wouldn't be the first one to exaggerate.

· Cersei explicitly state (and I am sure she right) that Jaime wouldve killed Robert if he saw his sister slap, but Jaime is supposed to put his king above everything else.

Again, you can't condemn a man for something he didn't do (especially when it's someone else claiming he would do it). Cersei was likely just exaggerating as well. In fact, I feel fairly certain that Jaime had witnessed some sort of abuse in the sixteen years Cersei and Robert had been married, considering Jaime is with one or the other most of the time. And he obviously didn't kill Robert for it.

· Jaime pushed Bran from the window, intentionally trying to kill him. Also, many readers do not know this, but Ned gave Roberts and his entourage his protection (guest rights), which Jaime violated.

Jaime pushed Bran from the window to prevent him from telling anyone about seeing Jaime and Cersei together, because if that got out, Robert would have had both of them executed for treason, and possibly also Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen if he came to the conclusion that they were Jaime's. Yes, Jaime attempted to kill a child and that's awful, but he did so to save his life, the life of the woman he loved, and the lives of his three children. If my husband and my children were in mortal danger and I could save them by pushing some kid I didn't know to his death, you're damn right I would do it. I personally would find it much more reprehensible to sacrifice your own children to save someone else's. I don't care if it's your own crimes that put them in danger in the first place. A parent should protect his or her children at any cost, period.

Also, Bran started to fall from the tower himself once Jaime and Cersei noticed he was there, and Jaime's first instinct was to save him, which he did. That alone shows that he isn't just some heartless person who doesn't care whether a young boy lives or dies. It wasn't until he had time to register the situation and what the consequences might be that he decided to push Bran—and even then, I believe it was mostly due to Cersei's influence, as he looked back to her, then said the infamous "The things I do for love," with loathing. I believe this loathing was both for himself and for Cersei, and for the awful thing he had to do to keep their secret and, thus, save their lives.

· The Kingslayer admitted that he would have killed Arya (also a child) if he found her first when her direwolf bit Joffrey. He then says because Cersei told him too, but dude thats a young girl!

See above, and above that as well.

Also, look at it from Jaime's perspective. He wasn't at Darry when Arya made her argument; he heard the story from Cersei, who backed Joffrey's account that Arya and Mycah ambushed Joffrey and set Nymeria on him. In that version of the story, Nymeria is basically a weapon that Arya attempted to use to kill Joffrey (or at least tear his arm off). That doesn't justify Jaime killing Arya in return, no, but you can understand why he and Cersei would feel malice towards her, especially considering she was to live at court and possibly continue to be a threat towards Joffrey. And it was Cersei who asked Jaime to do it; he didn't want to kill Arya so much as he wanted to give Cersei what she wanted.

· Hes a pathological breaker of oaths He fathered Cerseis children: Joffrey, Tommon, and Myrcella Baratheon. He allowed his king to think they were his, wtf.

Would you like me to quote Jaime's "too many oaths" speech? Sometimes he could not help breaking one oath to keep another.

And of course he allowed the king to think the children were his. Again, if Robert knew the truth, Cersei and Jaime both would have been executed for treason, and the children might have been killed, too. Can you honestly tell me that if you bore a child from an extramarital affair and your spouse had the power and the means to have you killed for it, you would confess and accept certain death?

· He broke another oath, as the Black Fish said, I dont see my nieces daughter with you. I suppose you are coming to your cell. (I paraphrase Black Fishs quote, but it is in A Feast for Crows") Jaime was supposed to bring Sansa and Arya back with him, and if he did not he was supposed to return to his cell at Riverrun.

It wasn't as though Jaime left Sansa and Arya captives at King's Landing. Arya had long been believed to be dead (and Jaime knew the "Arya" he saw departing King's Landing wasn't actually Arya), and Jaime sent Brienne out to find and protect Sansa. And remember that Sansa was suspected to have been involved in Joffrey's murder, and even though Jaime believed Tyrion was innocent, he didn't know that Sansa herself was; and when Jaime freed Tyrion and Tyrion told him that he had indeed killed Joffrey, that would've given Jaime even more reason to believe that Sansa had been involved—yet Jaime still wanted her protected, to fulfill his oath to Catelyn.

Should Jaime have returned to his cell at Riverrun because one of the girls he was charged to find was (he believed) dead, and one had escaped King's Landing, possibly after participating in his son's murder, and he was still in the process of trying to find her?

· Jaime supported Joffrey even when he knew that he was not the lawful king.

Right. Because as I said before, if he admitted to having fathered Joffrey, he and Cersei most definitely would have been executed for treason.

· Jaime Lannister is in the same category as Ramsey, Joffrey (his son), Gregor Clegane, and Walder Frey.

Really?

Does he genuinely enjoy physically and mentally torturing other human beings? Has he castrated anyone? Has he raped anyone? Has he forced one of his torture victims to torture and rape another?

Has he ordered anyone to beat a young girl he supposedly cared for while he watched?

Has he brutally murdered any young children or infants? Has he raped a woman while her son's blood and brains were still on his hands?

Has he lured anyone to his home under false pretenses and staged an ambush that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of men?

If you think any of that is equal to Jaime having sex with his sister, killing one man to save millions of lives, or doing what was necessary to save his own life and that of the woman he loved and his three children, then you have a truly twisted mind.

[imaginepageant]

He didn't kill Aerys because he was evil; he did it to save the people of King's Landing and the city itself. He just never told anybody about it for whatever reason.

He didn't tell anyone for the same reason he killed Aerys's pyromancers: so that nobody in King's Landing would know the entire city was rigged with wildfire, so that nobody could ever use it against them. Jaime sacrificed his honor, his reputation, and very possibly his life (as he may have been executed for treason depending on the outcome of the war), not only to save King's Landing from being destroyed by Aerys, but more importantly, to save King's Landing from being destroyed in the same manner by anyone else in the future. I think a lot of people miss this, but it's one of the greatest reasons why Jaime is a hero.

[imaginepageant]

There's a difference, Theon did not kill Osha, she left with Rickon, remember. And yes, Theon did kill farmer boys because he needed to make a point to the commoner about who was in charge.

...what?!

Theon planned to kill Osha but didn't because she left, so that's okay. Jaime planned to kill Arya but didn't because someone else found her first, and that's not?

Theon killed two innocent boys because he needed to show who was in charge, so that's okay. Jaime attempted to kill one innocent boy to save his life, the life of the woman he loved, and the lives of their three children, and that's not?

What in seven hells is wrong with you?

[House Obama]

He didn't tell anyone for the same reason he killed Aerys's pyromancers: so that nobody in King's Landing would know the entire city was rigged with wildfire, so that nobody could ever use it against them. Jaime sacrificed his honor, his reputation, and very possibly his life (as he may have been executed for treason depending on the outcome of the war), not only to save King's Landing from being destroyed by Aerys, but more importantly, to save King's Landing from being destroyed in the same manner by anyone else in the future. I think a lot of people miss this, but it's one of the greatest reasons why Jaime is a hero.

Lol, Jaime is far from a hero. He’s a villain who made a courageous and gutsy act. There’s been many villains in history who committed heinous acts, but also made a few good one… And trust me, Jame knew the war was over when words of his father’s arrival gotten to Aerys, that’s why he warned him to not open it. Readers know Jaime did a good thing, and that’s why many of them became oblivious to his faults and transgressions, but I didn’t.

...what?!

Theon planned to kill Osha but didn't because she left, so that's okay. Jaime planned to kill Arya but didn't because someone else found her first, and that's not?

Theon killed two innocent boys because he needed to show who was in charge, so that's okay. Jaime attempted to kill one innocent boy to save his life, the life of the woman he loved, and the lives of their three children, and that's not?

What in seven hells is wrong with you?

ONCE AGAIN! Theon did not serve the Iron Throne or Robb; he served his father, Balon Greyjoy. His father commanded him to pillage the North, but he saw a better opportunity and seized Winterfell, which I agree that he should have. The only problem with his plan was that he seized it for too long, Theon should have sacked Wintefell and returned Bran and Rickon to Pyke.

Also, Theon was commanded to reave and pillage the North, and whenever pillaging occurs, death most likely follows. Their religion condone killing, reaving and pillaging, so Theon was in the right actually. He was fighting for the Iron Islands independence, and the North was their enemy, and in order to maintain control of Winterfell he needed to make an example, which the farmer boys were… I do not support Ironborn, but I can see why Theon did what he did. He was a hostage at Wintefell, though the Stark never truly treated him as one. However, he was still the son of his father, Balon Greyjoy, who commanded him to attack the North.

[imaginepageant]

Jaime is far from a hero.

No, he only saved the lives of about a million people at the potential cost of his own. That's not heroic at all!

Theon did not serve the Iron Throne or Robb; he served his father, Balon Greyjoy.

So, that whole thing where Theon made a verbal contract to be Robb's emissary and negotiate an alliance with Balon on his behalf, and then broke his word by abandoning the man he had acknowledged as King in the North to go to war against him... that just doesn't matter at all, does it?

His father commanded him to pillage the North, but he saw a better opportunity and seized Winterfell, which I agree that he should have.

So then... he didn't serve his father, because he went against his father's commands to do what he wanted to instead? Do you even realize you're contradicting your own argument?

Their religion condone killing, reaving and pillaging, so Theon was in the right actually.

Oh, well, if religion condones the brutal murder of two innocent boys, it must be okay.

[Lady Meliora]

Not to mention that the miller's sons weren't enemy combatants, or even allies of his enemies really--they posed NO threat to Theon at all. Nor was their mother, or the Iron Men that Theon had killed to keep his secret about the boys' identities. But I suppose as their overlord, Theon had a right to kill them if they got in his way?

As has been stated before--very few people are saying that Jaime is a "good" person or that he's done nothing wrong. The problem is that you're making him out to be the WORST character in the series, while defending other characters who have done equally reprehensible things by excusing their actions (yet claiming that there's no excuse for Jaime).

[Jehane]

He didn't tell anyone for the same reason he killed Aerys's pyromancers: so that nobody in King's Landing would know the entire city was rigged with wildfire, so that nobody could ever use it against them. Jaime sacrificed his honor, his reputation, and very possibly his life (as he may have been executed for treason depending on the outcome of the war), not only to save King's Landing from being destroyed by Aerys, but more importantly, to save King's Landing from being destroyed in the same manner by anyone else in the future. I think a lot of people miss this, but it's one of the greatest reasons why Jaime is a hero.

I know. I was just very tired of this whole discussion when I posted what you quoted. I understand why Jaime didn't tell Ned - one part being that Ned didn't even bother to ask, the other part being that he didn't want people to know.

You know, I've been thinking that maybe - just maybe - GRRM is using the Arthurian double path here. In Arthurian literature, the would-be-hero arises, then does something very, very foolish - Erec neglects his duties, Perceval doesn't bother to ask the Fisher King what ails him - and is thrown back. He has to start all over in order to reach his goal - with Perceval, that would be the grail. Every Arthurian hero has to succumb to this two-fold path. He has to rise to the top, then fall, then correct his errors. If GRRM is using that structure with Jaime, he's taking it to the extreme, and I don't think Jaime will have a happy ending. However, we could try to apply that Arthurian structure to him and also try to compare him to Lancelot and Tristan. I've never heard people complain about Lancelot and Tristan's behaviour even though both of them cheated on their respective Kings by sleeping with their wifes. Even though they did that, they're still shining knights; they're basically perfect and manage to get away with it. I'm not saying that Jaime is Lancelot or Tristan; he's way too flawed. But I think there are parallels that we could explore.

I also agree with Lady_Meliora - Jaime's not a good person. He's done horrible things. Most people posting in this thread are willing to acknowledge that, yet the OT maintains his point that Jaime's essentially evil, while at the same time defending Walder Frey and claiming that Walder's been misunderstood. Give me a break. Walder is misunderstood but Jaime's pure evil? Really?

[Ninerings]

I love this thread and wish I had popcorn.

I wish the OP realized that this is NOT real life and a fantasy/parallel universe.

Imaginepageant has made all of the arguments that I am unable to articulate perfectly, Obama. I always saw Jaime as realizing that he himself is a lost cause (in terms of honor), but has acted with complete and selfless indoctrination his whole life.

Hate all you want. Jaime has been effed since his old man got suckered into putting him into the white cloak.

[mediterraneo]

He didn't tell anyone for the same reason he killed Aerys's pyromancers: so that nobody in King's Landing would know the entire city was rigged with wildfire, so that nobody could ever use it against them. Jaime sacrificed his honor, his reputation, and very possibly his life (as he may have been executed for treason depending on the outcome of the war), not only to save King's Landing from being destroyed by Aerys, but more importantly, to save King's Landing from being destroyed in the same manner by anyone else in the future. I think a lot of people miss this, but it's one of the greatest reasons why Jaime is a hero.

As much as I appreciate and share most of your points on Jaime, I'm not convinced on this. Jaime didn't take a conscious decision about this back then. He just didn't want to justify himself, in a careless and quite narcisistic way. After he kille dthe Mad King, he sat on the first chair he found, and waited for what might have come. Ex-post, his actions that day did not only save the city that day, but saved the city from others burning it later, and saved the city from Stannis sack too: part of the dragonflame's stacks was found by the pyromancers during Tyrion's siege preparations, iirc. But nothing of these positive spins on Jaime's acts were in his intentions.

He just thought about the here and now: he can be credited "just" with saving the city, its citizens and even his father's host from immolation that day.

Lol, Jaime is far from a hero.

No, he only saved the lives of about a million people at the potential cost of his own. That's not heroic at all!

But as I said, I often :agree: with this way of seeing things, Imaginepageant!

As it has been said and repeated a lot: maybe people can find reasons to loathe or hate Jaime. Nobody must love him. But there is not even a single undisputed reason to condemn him.

¿Long live Goldenhand the Just? ;)

[House Obama]

I love this thread and wish I had popcorn.

I wish the OP realized that this is NOT real life and a fantasy/parallel universe.

Imaginepageant has made all of the arguments that I am unable to articulate perfectly, Obama. I always saw Jaime as realizing that he himself is a lost cause (in terms of honor), but has acted with complete and selfless indoctrination his whole life.

Hate all you want. Jaime has been effed since his old man got suckered into putting him into the white cloak.

Oh, I know that this is a fantasy and not real life. However, I also know that I am one of few posters who understand that Jaime is scum. And saying that Jaime acted selfless his home life is laughable lol. A selfless act would have been to admit to the realm that Joffrey was a bastard, which could've saved hundreds of lives.

Also, posters are still focusing only on Jaime killing Aerys, but are ignoring all the other crimes he committed, which I posted neatly.

[imaginepageant]

Also, posters are still focusing only on Jaime killing Aerys, but are ignoring all the other crimes he committed, which I posted neatly.

Are you kidding me? I addressed every single one of your "indisputable" points.

[The Reckoner]

Arya is a sociopath and Bran is Satan. Neither deserve any mercy. Jaime's actions and thoughts toward these are admirable, as is his decision to take knighthood and continue on doing whatever he pleases so long as it is kept on the downlow. Nothing wrong with that. Jaime does have my sympathy for pursuing what makes him happy in life...and protecting his children from whatever Bran might bring down on them...

[Ninerings]

Can't get the quote feature to work on this comp, so eff it. Not arguing he did some fucked up shit, but to say that to act selflessly means to tell the world the truth about Joffrey is silly. Would you sacrifice the lives of your kids and "wife" for honor? That was Ned Stark's delusion. Jaime is operating in the world he was born in and the position he was politically placed in. He made some effed up choices, but he is racked with guilt over all of it.