These are the Undisputed Reasons why Jaime is less than scum

[David Selig]

Do you seriously think that he could be so well liked if he was generally believed to be a total scumbag? I wonder why Cersei, or Littlefinger etc do not scratch even top 10, or something in the popularity polls.

I've seen LF in the Top Ten a number of times, and that's without the benefit of a PoV. Here for example:

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/top30affc/

Popularity of ASOIF characters has very little to do with their morality. Tyrion, Arya and Jaime, all of them multiple murderers, usually end up on top of the popularity polls well ahead of Sansa, Samwell, and Davos.

[House Obama]

You've contradicted your own arguments a lot throughout this thread, but now you're doing it in back-to-back sentences, and you still believe your "logic" makes sense. This baffles me.

Jaime killed Aerys in the middle of a huge goddamned civil war. By your own "logic" that killing during wartime is excusable, you must excuse him for it.

No I did not, Jaime, who is a King Guard, was supposed to put Aerys over everything else. For example, Arthur Dayne and the rest of the King Guards told Ned that Rhegar (can't spell his name is) gave them an order, and they weren't going to break it. Rhaegar was fighting in Aerys's name, which Jaime should've been doing too. Aerys, albeit mad, was supposed to be the reason why Jaime breathe everyday.

Robb is a monster. He can

become a direwolf at will and eat thousands of Lannister soldiers! It is known.

That part in the book was so ridiculous lol... Davos is a clear top 5 character.

"Ser Jared of House Frey, I name you liar."

[House Obama]

He only started caring about others when he lost his hand,then he was humbled. He was brainwashed a little by Cersie and the GOT. But He for me is still a d-bag for all the harm he did to others. And as some pointed out he broke guest rights were I didn't think of until now. So IDK I think he's got more bad juju comin his way, his sudden moral / honor change may be a little late.

Thank for your agreement! Most people forgotten that he broke Guest's Rights.

Oh, I despise that false knight. Jaime Lannister is a disgrace to the realm!

Yea, he is... Though he is an enjoyable character to read about.

[Dofs]

I've seen LF in the Top Ten a number of times, and that's without the benefit of a PoV. Here for example:

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/top30affc/

Popularity of ASOIF characters has very little to do with their morality. Tyrion, Arya and Jaime, all of them multiple murderers, usually end up on top of the popularity polls well ahead of Sansa, Samwell, and Davos.

Oh, cool, he barely cracked top 10 in one poll. But morality has a lot to do with popularity polls. Because on the very top are only characters who are interesting and likable as people. Littlefinger will never be in the top because he is a total scumbag. Jaime is always there because he exactly is likable as a person for most. Same about Tyrion and Arya.

I actually find it weird that you are saying that Tyrion, Arya and Jaime are only popular because they are interesting, but are still thought as immoral people and scumbags by most, considering that you have like 9k posts on this forum and thus were reading this forum for a long time. There are a lot of people who are defending them and justifying all their bad acts. This thread alone shows that in Jaime's case. :dunno:

[David Selig]

Oh, cool, he barely cracked top 10 in one poll. But morality has a lot to do with popularity polls. Because on the very top are only characters who are interesting and likable as people.

Among the main characters the ones who are most likeable as people - Davos, Sam, Sansa, Brienne, etc - almost always lag behind most of the ones who are worst - Jaime, Tyrion, Theon, even the Hound. Jon Snow is the only exception. So I don't see any correlation between likeability as persons and popularity. If LF had more screentime and PoV, he'd probably be very high too.

I actually find it weird that you are saying that Tyrion, Arya and Jaime are only popular because they are interesting, but are still thought as immoral people and scumbags by most, considering that you have like 9k posts on this forum and thus were reading this forum for a long time. There are a lot of people who are defending them and justifying all their bad acts. This thread alone shows that in Jaime's case.

Oh, I know very well there are plenty of extreme fans who try to justify everything their favourites have done (hell, I am like that sometimes). But IMO the reason for the vast majority of the defenses is exactly because the characters are interesting and funny - it makes people very biased in their favour. If Tyrion was boring and not funny, way less people would defend him.

[House Obama]

Why do people think Arya actions were immoral? Lol, she's not evil one bit in my opinion... She also took the liberty to kill the Night Watch deserter.

[allenczhang]

Umm... Theon was a hostage at Winterfell for eight years. House Stark, however, never treated him as one, but Ned and Theon still understood hat he was a hostage. When Robb decided to allow Theon to return to Pyke, so Theon decided to use the opportunity to "escape" the people he was hostage under. Theon's loyalty belong to his father, who is also his lord and King. Plus, Theon had to kill those two boys to ensure the loyalty and respect from the town folks and his men. Please do not forgot that their religion commends pillaging. House Greyjoy does not sow! They take what is their because they're ironborn. Theon should not be grateful to the Stark because they weren't his natural family.

Furthermore, Theon is a true grey character because he was conflicted when he chose his family over the Stark. Theon was a part of the Iorn Islands and they were declaring independent from the seven kingdoms and battling the Northern kingdom. Theon's actions were acts of war... My logic is accurate.

Jaime did atrocious things, which weren't made during warfare. And he killed his King, who he was suppose to place over everything else in the world. Aye, Jaime is getting better, but his sins cannot be wash.

So if religion promotes rape and pillage that makes it right? I sincerely hope you are trolling.

Theon was a hostage, yet the Stark's never treated him as one. Shouldn't Theon feel the slightest bit of gratitude towards the Starks for treating him that way? Instead, he takes over their castle, "kills" or at least means to kill Bran/Rickon in cold blood,

And killing two boys to ensure the loytalty and respect from his townsfolk is ok? Killing them didn't even ensure loyalty. It just saved him from looking like a complete idiot who couldn't catch 2 young boys and a wildling woman.

...

He didn't even need to attack Winterfell - his father didn't order him to do that. He decided to take it to stroke his own ego.

About Jaime killing his king... Ser Barristan placed his king before everything else in the world, and it's his biggest regret. Jaime killed his king, and it was the only thing he didn't regret. GRRM tries to make a point here - loyalty to a fault is not a good thing. Being honorable for the sake of being honorable is wrong. Jaime killed the king, and soiled his name. Nobody respected him after he killed Aerys. Barristan on the other hand took the easy way out, and stood by his king no matter what the king did. You'd be a fool to think that Barristan chose correctly.

[Cladinator]

Why do people think Arya actions were immoral? Lol, she's not evil one bit in my opinion... She also took the liberty to kill the Night Watch deserter.

I happen to agree with you on this one. Whatever "immoral" things Arya has done were done to save her life or the lives of others (with the exception of a few actions maybe) and don't really compare to the "immoral" actions of many of the other characters.

I'm no fan of moral relativism but I can't bring myself to judge her character quite like others (call it bias).

[Dofs]

Among the main characters the ones who are most likeable as people - Davos, Sam, Sansa, Brienne, etc - almost always lag behind most of the ones who are worst - Jaime, Tyrion, Theon, even the Hound. Jon Snow is the only exception. So I don't see any correlation between likeability as persons and popularity. If LF had more screentime and PoV, he'd probably be very high too.

Oh, I know very well there are plenty of extreme fans who try to justify everything their favourites have done (hell, I am like that sometimes). But IMO the reason for the vast majority of the defenses is exactly because the characters are interesting and funny - it makes people very biased in their favour. If Tyrion was boring and not funny, way less people would defend him.

I did say likable and interesting. Only likable ones and only interesting ones will always be after likable and interesting ones. And likable ones have a bigger chance of getting to the top because interesting scumbags will always have a fair share of haters. So I definitely believe that likability plays one of the major roles in the popularity polls.

There are not just 'plenty' of fans who try to justify bad acts of their favourites. Every fan will do it. Any fan of Dany will justify her bad acts. No fan of Jaime will call him a total scumbag. Already people disagree here at the moment that Arya is immoral. Same with Tyrion. And also the moment Tyrion started to become less likable as a person, his popularity started to wane. Yet Jaime's is still on the rise. So i definitely disagree with you here. Yes, being interesting plays a major role to being popular, but Jaime would have never been so popular, if he wasn't a likable person for a lot of people. And Littlefinger will never top popularity polls no matter how big his screen time would be unless he starts a redemption arc or something like that. It's your personal opinion that Jaime is a scumbag. But you are wrong if you assume that majority of the readers agree with you here. They don't, the popularity polls, the countless threads on this forum and not only and this thread alone prove they don't.

[House Obama]

I did say likable and interesting. Only likable ones and only interesting ones will always be after likable and interesting ones. And likable ones have a bigger chance of getting to the top because interesting scumbags will always have a fair share of haters. So I definitely believe that likability plays one of the major roles in the popularity polls.

There are not just 'plenty' of fans who try to justify bad acts of their favourites. Every fan will do it. Any fan of Dany will justify her bad acts. No fan of Jaime will call him a total scumbag. Already people disagree here at the moment that Arya is immoral. Same with Tyrion. And also the moment Tyrion started to become less likable as a person, his popularity started to wane. Yet Jaime's is still on the rise. So i definitely disagree with you here. Yes, being interesting plays a major role to being popular, but Jaime would have never been so popular, if he wasn't a likable person for a lot of people. And Littlefinger will never top popularity polls no matter how big his screen time would be unless he starts a redemption arc or something like that. It's your personal opinion that Jaime is a scumbag. But you are wrong if you assume that majority of the readers agree with you here. They don't, the popularity polls, the countless threads on this forum and not only and this thread alone prove they don't.

I am one of very few because Jaime and Reek are my favorite character, but I am open minded enough to know that Jaime is a terrible person lol.

[Dofs]

I am one of very few because Jaime and Reek are my favorite character, but I am open minded enough to know that Jaime is a terrible person lol.

Huh? So Jaime is your favourite character despite claiming in the op that you are not his supporter, that he is in the same category with the likes of Gregor and Ramsay and that he deserves to die and suffer in afterlife? :uhoh: Are you sure you are speaking not about his chapters but about Jaime himself? Because if you are, does Craster crack your top 5 of favourite characters? :laugh:

[House Obama]

So if religion promotes rape and pillage that makes it right? I sincerely hope you are trolling.

Theon was a hostage, yet the Stark's never treated him as one. Shouldn't Theon feel the slightest bit of gratitude towards the Starks for treating him that way? Instead, he takes over their castle, "kills" or at least means to kill Bran/Rickon in cold blood,

And killing two boys to ensure the loytalty and respect from his townsfolk is ok? Killing them didn't even ensure loyalty. It just saved him from looking like a complete idiot who couldn't catch 2 young boys and a wildling woman.

...

He didn't even need to attack Winterfell - his father didn't order him to do that. He decided to take it to stroke his own ego.

About Jaime killing his king... Ser Barristan placed his king before everything else in the world, and it's his biggest regret. Jaime killed his king, and it was the only thing he didn't regret. GRRM tries to make a point here - loyalty to a fault is not a good thing. Being honorable for the sake of being honorable is wrong. Jaime killed the king, and soiled his name. Nobody respected him after he killed Aerys. Barristan on the other hand took the easy way out, and stood by his king no matter what the king did. You'd be a fool to think that Barristan chose correctly.

Maybe you do not understand. Westeros is made up, or was made up of seven separate kingdoms. When the realm became fracture, after Ned beheading, the North, Riverlands, and the Iron Islands declared themselves independent. Robb was attacking the South, planning to siege Kings Landing. Balon, on the other hand, was attacking the North because it was strategically smarter than battling the Lannister.

Theon was sent to raid the peasants in the North, by his father's orders. He chose instead to siege Winterfell, not because he wanted to stroke his ego, or please his father. Theon thought the taking of Winterfell was a better strategic plan, which it was. However, he should've left after the maester warned him of upcoming enemies... I am getting tired of repeating my logical reasoning for Theon's actions...

Theon was a hostage at Winterfell, his loyalty belonged to his father, Balon, not House Stark. Also, when you are an "honorable guest", your "host" should treat you with kindness. For example, Jaime took many hostages while in the Riverlands, and he explicitly told their parents (the hostages are heir to lords) that they will be honorable guest.

[House Obama]

Huh? So Jaime is your favourite character despite claiming in the op that you are not his supporter, that he is in the same category with the likes of Gregor and Ramsey and that he deserves to die and suffer in afterlife? :uhoh: Are you sure you are speaking not about his chapters but about Jaime himself? Because if you are, does Craster crack your top 5 of favourite characters? :laugh:

What can I say, I love villains lol. However, I mostly enjoy his chapters because he is very funny... Craster does not crack my top 5.

[Dofs]

What can I say, I love villains lol. However, I mostly enjoy his chapters because he is very funny... Craster does not crack my top 5.

But then you like his funny chapters and not Jaime himself.

Also, Jaime definitely is not a villain. Far from it.

[imaginepageant]

I am one of very few because Jaime and Reek are my favorite character, but I am open minded enough to know that Jaime is a terrible person lol.

Hey, remember that thing I said about contradicting your own arguments?

anybody who supports Jaime need to question themself because he is a terrible person. Jaime Lannister is in the same category as Ramsey, Joffrey (his son), Gregor Clegane, and Walder Frey. And he deserves nothing more than to die and be sent to the deepest of the Seven Hells with his bastard son

He has done too many atrocities to earn respect from anyone.

I honestly can't decide if you're just that dense, or if you're a troll with a lot of time on your hands.

[Lady Meliora]

Maybe you do not understand. Westeros is made up, or was made up of seven separate kingdoms. When the realm became fracture, after Ned beheading, the North, Riverlands, and the Iron Islands declared themselves independent. Robb was attacking the South, planning to siege Kings Landing. Balon, on the other hand, was attacking the North because it was strategically smarter than battling the Lannister.

Theon was sent to raid the peasants in the North, by his father's orders. He chose instead to siege Winterfell, not because he wanted to stroke his ego, or please his father. Theon thought the taking of Winterfell was a better strategic plan, which it was. However, he should've left after the maester warned him of upcoming enemies... I am getting tired of repeating my logical reasoning for Theon's actions...

Theon was a hostage at Winterfell, his loyalty belonged to his father, Balon, not House Stark. Also, when you are an "honorable guest", your "host" should treat you with kindness. For example, Jaime took many hostages while in the Riverlands, and he explicitly told their parents (the hostages are heir to lords) that they will be honorable guest.

Do we have any evidence that Theon was treated harshly or in any way other than one that befit his station? I ask because he never seemed upset with his treatment until after he went back to Pyke. Catelyn apparently saw no reason not to believe him when he said he saw Eddard as a second father, and she was aware enough to admit to herself that she'd always been cold to Jon, so I assume she'd have realized if Theon was treated poorly. I don't think that Ned would have allowed dishonorable treatment of a ward/hostage, at any rate.

[House Obama]

I honestly can't decide if you're just that dense, or if you're a troll with a lot of time on your hands.

[Lord Reaper oOo]

It's so funny when people defend Jaime.

king killer, sister fucker, would be child killer.

*grabs popcorn*

[imaginepageant]

Just because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't mean that they're a troll

No, but saying a character deserves nothing more than to die and burn in hell and doesn't deserve respect from anyone, and then saying that that character is your favorite character... it's a little suspect.

If it looks like a troll and it quacks like a troll...

[House Obama]

No, but saying a character deserves nothing more than to die and burn in hell and doesn't deserve respect from anyone, and then saying that that character is your favorite character... it's a little suspect.

If it looks like a troll and it quacks like a troll...

No, I'm just a realist... I love his chapters, but I still understand that he's scum. Well, he's less than scum.

Plus, I have been giving valid reasons why I think he's trash. Therefore, I find it a little absurd that you are assuming that I am trolling.