sperry Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 This one strikes me hard because it happened to a very close friend of mine. He slept with a married woman long ago. He found out later from one of her close friends that he was actually the biological father, not the husband. She refused to let him be part of his daughter's life. He sued for a paternity test and it was positive, he is the father. Yet the state disallowed him any contact because the husband had raised the daughter as his and was named as the father based on the mother's decision. I saw what my friend went through...the depression, the anger, the sadness. I embraced him as he cried on my shoulder over and over and over again. It isn't right. He should have the chance to form a relationship with his daughter and the daughter should have the right to know. I believe this is only the case when there is an established marriage and the non-biological father raises the child as its own. Ironically, this protection exists to protect the man (the husband) and to preserve notions of the "sanctity of marriage" and reinforce a state interest in "traditional" family cohesion. Outside of an established marriage, a man claiming to be the biological father does have legal standing to sue for a paternity test. This is the way it should be. The fact that the woman carried the child is irrelevant, IMO, because the woman has the unilateral right to terminate the pregnancy. Once they've decided to carry the child to term, they're simply one of two biological parents of the child, and issues of custody and the child's welfare should be decided between the biological parents, and if they can't come to agreements, the courts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB. Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I think that in these cases what's best for the child should be more important than what's best for the biological father. If a child is in a loving home and formed an attachment with the mother's partner, it might prove harmful to the child to take action based solely on the rights of the biological father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I think that in these cases what's best for the child should be more important than what's best for the biological father. If a child is in a loving home and formed an attachment with the mother's partner, it might prove harmful to the child to take action based solely on the rights of the biological father. Yes, that's why there are legal disputes over whether a parent is fit to be a part of a child's life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I think that in these cases what's best for the child should be more important than what's best for the biological father. If a child is in a loving home and formed an attachment with the mother's partner, it might prove harmful to the child to take action based solely on the rights of the biological father. Unless you are completely unfit, you should have a right to some relationship with your child. That goes for mother and father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB. Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Yes, that's why there are legal disputes over whether a parent is fit to be a part of a child's life.Of course I'm just repeating myself here but just in case I was not clear, it might be about more than whether the parent is "fit". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taenqyrhae Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I'm not sure how a man not knowing that he is a father makes him not primary mate material. Please explain..Because he is not her primary mate and the woman did not want him to know he was the father. We are talking about a woman who is not committed to any man and has multiple sex partners. If she did choose to mate with him because she wanted him to be a father to her child, she most likely would tell him. This doesn't really make sense either. This does imply ownership of the child by the mother and that the father has no rights. This gives a woman free reign to decide who she thinks the father SHOULD be. Withholding a child from its biological father simply because she doesn't want a relationship with him. There could be valid reasons, but often times there are no valid reasons other than somebody being vindictive over a bad breakup, or having found a wealthier partner. One might feel that it's unfair to deny men the right to demand paternity tests for women who deny that they are the father, but as I pointed out that is how the system is set up and there are very good reasons for those protections for mothers. It is therefore not a right under the US legal system (I do not know if any other countries do it differently, probably not any industrialized nations). This one strikes me hard because it happened to a very close friend of mine. He slept with a married woman long ago. He found out later from one of her close friends that he was actually the biological father, not the husband. She refused to let him be part of his daughter's life. He sued for a paternity test and it was positive, he is the father. Yet the state disallowed him any contact because the husband had raised the daughter as his and was named as the father based on the mother's decision. I saw what my friend went through...the depression, the anger, the sadness. I embraced him as he cried on my shoulder over and over and over again. It isn't right. He should have the chance to form a relationship with his daughter and the daughter should have the right to know. You obviously believe his right to access to the progeny of his adultery should outweigh the family's right to maintain stability. I disagree. I already raise two children that are not mine biologically, but they came from before my relationship with my wife. If I were to find out my own daughter was the result of an affair my wife had, I would not think her my daughter any less, and I most definitely would not want her forced to spend time with some stranger who fucked my wife 9 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crom Dubh Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Of course I'm just repeating myself here but just in case I was not clear, it might be about more than whether the parent is "fit". I have no quarrel with that. Social Justice Warrior is assuming the woman is the primary caregiver, and that she "owns" her children, which I (and Castel, and Glaurung, and sperry, if I am not mistaken) think is a faulty assumption. Moreover, he is assuming the woman has the right to determine whether a man is "primary mate material" and therefore exclude him from the child's life, which assumes the woman is a fit parent and well-suited to making that judgment, which is by no means a universal quality among humanity, let alone one gender or another. EDIT: Perhaps I worded that poorly: of course a woman has a right to determine whether a man should be her partner/boyfriend/husband (the "primary mate" to which I am assuming SJW refers). However, the rights of the child supersede the mother's right to determine who she sleeps/lives with, and the child has a right to that father. So, if a man who would be an able father (therefore discounting wackadoos, abusers, etc) was to wish a relationship with that child, on what basis should that child be denied a potential relationship with its father? Citing "well, the woman didn't like the guy that much" would only apply if we were talking about forcing the two of them to live together or some other sort of bullshit. But we're not. It's not the mother we're speaking of, but rather the child. And stating that the mother's relationship preferences should determine whether or not the child has the potential for a relationship with someone who might very well be a positive influence on their life is spurious. It makes the child out to be the property of the mother, or attendant in some manner upon the mother's social/sexual life, which is simply not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I think you're mistaken here, because in the United States men claiming to be the biological father do have legal standing to demand a paternity test from the mother. Why do the mother's desires matter here? She is the one carrying the child, and thus has the sole right to terminate her pregnancy, but once she has decided to carry the child to term, she is simply one of two biological parents and should not have any kind of superior rights. In fact, giving her those rights seems to be playing into old stereotypes about women simply being responsible child rearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glaurung Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Because he is not her primary mate and the woman did not want him to know he was the father. We are talking about a woman who is not committed to any man and has multiple sex partners. If she did choose to mate with him because she wanted him to be a father to her child, she most likely would tell him. Whether she is committed to a man is not a determinant of whether or not the father has the right to know. Not only is it not fair to fathers, but it follows an archaic assumption of mothers being the sole or primary caregivers, which is an assumption that is even more unfair and dangerous to women than it is to men. One might feel that it's unfair to deny men the right to demand paternity tests for women who deny that they are the father, but as I pointed out that is how the system is set up and there are very good reasons for those protections for mothers. It is therefore not a right under the US legal system (I do not know if any other countries do it differently, probably not any industrialized nations). I'm not sure how it protects mothers outside of instances of rape or abuse. It doesn't protect the child either. By assuming ownership of the child by the woman only and leaving the decision to fatherhood or whether to inform up to her discretion only, you will by default find many situations where the child is not in the best care possible. Sometimes the mother is not the best caregiver and the father would make an excellent caregiver, or the man she's chosen to be the father is not the best caregiver between the 2 potential fathers. By leaving this decision to the woman only, it can be harmful to the child. You obviously believe his right to access to the progeny of his adultery should outweigh the family's right to maintain stability. I disagree. I already raise two children that are not mine biologically, but they came from before my relationship with my wife. If I were to find out my own daughter was the result of an affair my wife had, I would not think her my daughter any less, and I most definitely would not want her forced to spend time with some stranger who fucked my wife 9 years ago. This isn't about taking the child away from the spouse, but simply allowing the biological father a chance to be part if his child's life. I'm not saying the court should take away your fatherly rights, only that the biological father should have a chance to take part in the child's life. It would be different maybe if the biological father knew he was the father all along and didn't want to be a part of the child's life but then changed his mind later on. This is about somebody suddenly finding out that he is the biological father and that this information was withheld from him. My friend was not some guy who just "fucked" somebody 9 years ago. He was somebody who fathered a child but did not know it and the mother knew he was the father but purposely withheld that information from him. If he had known all along, he would have been part of the child's life from day 1. This damn near killed him, he was hurting so bad. BTW, the child deserves to know as well. How do you think she's going to feel when she turns 18 and her father contacts her and she finds out her parents have been lying to her for 18 years? She's likely going to be pretty damn pissed. This isn't the 1950s. A child in today's society can have 2 dads and be perfectly normal & happy. Something that makes my friend's situation even worse is that he did actually get to build a relationship with the child for a while. At first the mother took her over to see him a few times and later changed her mind because it wasn't what was best for her(not the child). So he build a relationship with her and then had her taken away all over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryanfury Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Basically, I believe a man who does not know he is a father has no parental obligations or rights. If he thinks it's unfair, he should ask why he doesn't know he's the father. He's obviously not primary mate material to the woman he happened to impregnate.This is absolutely disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taenqyrhae Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Well, all I can say is there's good reasons why things are the way they are, society protects the rights of the parent who actually has to bear the child and realizes expanding those rights for men would be destructive to children and families. If you don't get why it's a bad idea to let a man demand paternity tests and parental rights against the will of a mother who has not given him any reason to believe he is the father, I don't know what to say to get you to open your eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taenqyrhae Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 This is absolutely disgusting. I find it disgusting that you believe a man has the right to intrude on a woman's life simply because she slept with him. You open that door for one man, you open it for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crom Dubh Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Well, all I can say is there's good reasons why things are the way they are, society protects the rights of the parent who actually has to bear the child and realizes giving those rights to men would be destructive to families. If you don't get why it's a bad idea to let a man demand paternity tests and parental rights against the will of a mother who has not given him any reason to believe he is the father, I don't know what to say to get you to open your eyes. Well, all I can say is that there are good reasons you're wrong, and if you don't have the courtesy to actually engage with those arguments iterated by several posters in the thread above, then I suppose there's nothing more to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taenqyrhae Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Here is the scenario that WOULD happen if the laws were changed to give men this right. HE: Hey, I think your kid might be mine - we did sleep together around 10 years ago. SHE: No, it's not yours, and stop contacting me. I want nothing to do with you. HE: I hired a lawyer and you have to have your kid blood tested to prove it's not mine. SHE: I'm not going to do it. COURTS: You are in contempt of court, enjoy some time in jail. We will put your child in foster care and force him to give blood. <weeks later>COURTS: Sorry for the inconvenience, you were right, the child was not his.HE: Hmm, who else have I slept with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taenqyrhae Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Well, all I can say is that there are good reasons you're wrong, and if you don't have the courtesy to actually engage with those arguments iterated by several posters in the thread above, then I suppose there's nothing more to say. I have engaged those arguments. I have explained in detail why this is not a right, and why society believes it should not be a right. This boils down to a difference in opinion on how things SHOULD be, and I doubt I could be convinced that it would be right to allow scenarios like the one I just posted to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crom Dubh Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Here is the scenario that WOULD happen if the laws were changed to give men this right. HE: Hey, I think your kid might be mine - we did sleep together around 10 years ago. SHE: No, it's not yours, and stop contacting me. I want nothing to do with you. HE: I hired a lawyer and you have to have your kid blood tested to prove it's not mine. SHE: I'm not going to do it. COURTS: You are in contempt of court, enjoy some time in jail. We will put your child in foster care and force him to give blood. <weeks later>COURTS: Sorry for the inconvenience, you were right, the child was not his.HE: Hmm, who else have I slept with...I too can create idiotic hypothetical scenarios to prove my point. Man: Hey, we slept together nine months ago, and I think your child may be mine. I'm a responsible human being, and while I realize you do not want a relationship with me (nor do I want one with you), I do want a relationship with the child I may have fathered. May we take a paternity test so that I might find out if the child is mine? I am certain I would be a positive influence on the child's life, and I think the child is owed a father. Woman: No. I don't want you to have a relationship with the child, because your face is dumb. No paternity test allowed. Man: Courts, assist me. Courts: No. Woman: I am actually a quite terrible person, and I am going to kill my child now through negligence/abuse/any other myriad of opportunities. Child: I am now dead. Woe is me. ----- Hypothetical scenario, engage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Er Rn Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 You obviously believe his right to access to the progeny of his adultery should outweigh the family's right to maintain stability. I disagree. I already raise two children that are not mine biologically, but they came from before my relationship with my wife. If I were to find out my own daughter was the result of an affair my wife had, I would not think her my daughter any less, and I most definitely would not want her forced to spend time with some stranger who fucked my wife 9 years ago.Unless the sex was non-consensual*, it seems pretty unfair to refer to the biological father as a stranger who fucked the mother. The situation would actually be a man and a woman willingly engaged in a sexual relationship. By wording it as "he fucked her," it feels like you are taking the choice away from the woman in deciding who her sexual partners will be.*obviously this does not apply to non-consensual sex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taenqyrhae Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I think some males are overlooking another consequence of this desire for increased parental rights. If men had the right to demand the courts force paternity tests for children that they think they may have fathered, and grant parental rights to that child against the wishes of the people actually parenting the child, then it stands to reason that the courts should be able to force a man to act as a parent for children that he conceived. As it is, a man only has to be financially responsible - if an old fling proved I was the father of her child, she could not force me to take an active part in the child's life if I did not want to. I would have to contribute financially but I'm not going to get a court order to make me go to the house of some girl I may or may not be on good terms with, I can't be forced to add the kid to my already full household on weekends, I don't have to explain to some kid I never met why I have a connection to him and why I don't want it anymore.Changing the laws as proposed would give men the right to be a father if they wanted to, but also the right to refuse if they didn't want to, which would be fundamentally unfair to women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taenqyrhae Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I too can create idiotic hypothetical scenarios to prove my point. Man: Hey, we slept together nine months ago, and I think your child may be mine. I'm a responsible human being, and while I realize you do not want a relationship with me (nor do I want one with you), I do want a relationship with the child I may have fathered. May we take a paternity test so that I might find out if the child is mine? I am certain I would be a positive influence on the child's life, and I think the child is owed a father. Woman: No. I don't want you to have a relationship with the child, because your face is dumb. No paternity test allowed. Man: Courts, assist me. Courts: No. Woman: I am actually a quite terrible person, and I am going to kill my child now through negligence/abuse/any other myriad of opportunities. Child: I am now dead. Woe is me. ----- Hypothetical scenario, engage! What exactly is idiotic about my hypothetical situation? I think it's idiotic to bring up child abuse in an argument about whether a man has the right to establish paternity to a child whose mother says he is not the father when he has no way of establishing he is. If a child is being abused, the courts should be giving custody to someone else related to the child or to a foster family, not to a guy whose sole claim to the child is that he is one of multiple men the woman slept with years ago. ESPECIALLY when people can have very broad definitions of "abuse". What if some Christian fundamentalist feels that the child of a woman he slept with years ago is abusing the child by raising it in a different religion, or by raising it in a same sex marriage? Should he have the right to demand a paternity test? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emberling Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 this discussion, and the are-fundamentalist-parents-abusive thing, continue to further my conviction that everything about the way we conceive inheritance and parentage in society is completely and utterly broken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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