Feminism: Allegations of Sexual Violations

[Buckwheat]

Such is why I reacted the way I did. Maidenism might have fallen out of common fashion, but that doesn't mean the word virgin should be considered a dirty word. I know it may be a shocking prospect, but some women actually take pride in their sexual identity. Virgin is the state of being chaste and having a hymen never having had sex before, nothing more. And it is something which I find a beautiful thing. Of course it's easier if you're a lesbian, but that's the whole point, it's a part of my sexual identity. And I intend to die a virgin, at least in the sense untouched by men, with my maidenhead intact. I take a lot of pride in that.

Fixed that for you. ;) You do realise that lots of women have their hymen torn long before they have sex, for example during sport activities?

I also personally think the word should not be limited to using it in application to heterosexual women only and should be free of all value judgements connected with it, either positive or negative.

If I ever find myself in a position where I intend to get married (very unlikely), I am totally asking my prospective parents in law for the hand of their son in marriage as a joke (provided they have a sense of humour, that is). I will let you all know how that goes. B)

[The Once and Future King]

Yes, that is clearly exactly what he was saying there.

And you dont think that is ridiculous?

[MinDonner]

Someone needs to get their sarcasm meter fixed.

[Lord Toblerone]

And you dont think that is ridiculous?

To answer your original question, were Miley Cyrus pregnant the identity of the father would be her business and hers alone.

The problem in the scenario is the assumption that she wouldn't know who the father of her baby was.

And that a young girl is already picking up on these ideas while still too young to understand them.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

To answer your original question, were Miley Cyrus pregnant the identity of the father would be her business and hers alone.

And also of the child and all of the potential fathers and anybody who'd help her raise the child and any of the doctors who treat the child.

Otherwise, excellent post.

[litechick]

Such a cornucopia of gray areas...it is reasonable to deplore someone having unprotected sex with more than two partners in a month but deplorable to assume that more than two partners a month is deplorable for a woman (and not a man.)

a young girl is already picking up on these ideas while still too young to understand them. That's the bell ringer for me. A kid should not be imbued with a moralistic judgment which he/she doesn't understand.

Responsible adult sex involves both protections against STDs and unwanted pregnancy. It seems to me that Lord Toblerone is arguing that Miley can have all the sex she wants and BearShin is arguing that paternity is a Big Deal so a woman should not have any doubt about it. Both are reasonable positions.

I would tend to point out to BearShin that a man can protect himself from unwanted paternity and STDs by wearing a condom. Bearshin, please reassure me that your concern is based on the greater benefit of man/woman/child and not the privileged notion that a woman should restrict her sexual partners while a man is free to indulge as he sees fit.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Such a cornucopia of gray areas...it is reasonable to deplore someone having unprotected sex with more than two partners in a month but deplorable to assume that more than two partners a month is deplorable for a woman (and not a man.)

a young girl is already picking up on these ideas while still too young to understand them. That's the bell ringer for me. A kid should not be imbued with a moralistic judgment which he/she doesn't understand.

Responsible adult sex involves both protections against STDs and unwanted pregnancy. It seems to me that Lord Toblerone is arguing that Miley can have all the sex she wants and BearShin is arguing that paternity is a Big Deal so a woman should not have any doubt about it. Both are reasonable positions.

I would tend to point out to BearShin that a man can protect himself from unwanted paternity and STDs by wearing a condom. Bearshin, please reassure me that your concern is based on the greater benefit of man/woman/child and not the privileged notion that a woman should restrict her sexual partners while a man is free to indulge as he sees fit.

I have absolutely no problem with any Miley Cyrus sleeping with as many men or women as she wants.

[litechick]

It's only partial reassurance but I will take what I can get. Thanks Bearshin.

[Forever May]

It places a mythic significance onto the first sex act

Is there anything wrong with relating to your sexuality in a spiritual manner?

Anyway. The act of sex is significant to some people, by choice, that's the whole point. I say it is important to me, so it is important to me. This is a real thing, not a mythical one.

Please realize that your unique detached perspective does not grant you supernatural knowledge of western cultural praxis. You are telling people who literally live with this shit every day that it doesn't exist. Maybe as an outsider you're uniquely suited to analyze it, once you know it. But you do not know it better than we do. You want to know why you get called a troll? Because you put your own uninformed supposition over the personal experience of multiple other people.

What I do know is that maiden is just a word used to describe a person of a specific sexual status. How is there anything inherently negative about this? And how are you living "with this shit every day" exactly? In this instance, this is not something isolated to the West. In Thailand too young people are shamed for their virginity by their peers. I believe this is the root of the backlash I am experiencing right here and now mind you. It is a widespread culture of shaming people of modest sexual identity that begins at a very early age. Yet I'll get over it. There was once a time when being a homosexual was considered a negative too and the words associated with that identity were not something anyone liked to be called, even if they were gay. Progress was made however, and that has changed.

Yet society can also go backwards too, it seems. And now being a virgin is something to be ashamed of. And now preaching fidelity is considered a mark of having been brainwashed or oppressed (which is totally fucking ignorant). And now I learn that we aren't even supposed to use the word maiden anymore. What the hell? Seriously. Some women do value chastity and it has more to do with their sense of pride and self respect and nothing to do with being oppressed. And that is my sexual identity. Shame on the people who do not respect it.

[Forever May]

So can we stop playing with the troll and go back to talking about feminism yet?

lol

Don't "lol" at me. Seriously. I am 14 years old and I came here to talk to you and learn about you. Honestly I do apologize when I get angry and say some things that are bitter to the point of offensive. But you are being impertinent, so stop it. And besides, I am talking about a woman's sexual identity. This is completely on topic feminism, is it not? Anyway, I don't know what the actual topic of this thread was meant to be. The OP seemed to leave it pretty open...

[emberling]

Look, nobody here cares one bit about your personal relationship with sex, your status, your identity, anything. You are taking criticisms of western cultural practice - of pressures and double binds that our society places on women in general, particularly in certain communities - as if they are personal insults to you. They are not. The point is that we all should decide for ourselves when and with whom we have sex. That means no pressure from peers to lose virginity and also no pressure from parents to maintain it. If the identity of virgin is important to you, then by all means keep it! Or maiden, whatever you want to call it - that's not a taboo word at all, it's just not a word that really gets used much anymore and even then, is typically closer to 'miss' or 'girl' than to 'virgin' in meaning - GRRM's use of it is an archaism.

What has been criticized in this thread is the system where a person's first sex act is considered - not by themself, which is a matter of personal choice, but by society - to transform that person, either from child to adult or from pure to spoiled. Worse, rape is considered to count as a sex act in this structure; further, many sex acts are considered to not count, which reinforces a heterosexual norm by privileging PiV sex. This is an analysis of a western system in a western context, and not applied to your situation because it is a different cultural context that we cannot speak to - other than that your rights don't extend to defining anyone else, e.g., your claim that virginity/maidenhood is the state of being without having a hymen. edit: whoops backwards

I am thirty-one years old. I have never had sex with anyone. Anyone who attempts to define me as virgin or maid or spinster or some shit because of this can fuck right off. And I never had a hymen.

ETA: ...Just checked this one's profile...never mind. There are no words.

[Lyanna Stark]

TLDR the long trolling. You guys have all the fun without me! LOL @ the profile tho, pr0 trolling.

What has been criticized in this thread is the system where a person's first sex act is considered - not by themself, which is a matter of personal choice, but by society - to transform that person, either from child to adult or from pure to spoiled. Worse, rape is considered to count as a sex act in this structure; further, many sex acts are considered to not count, which reinforces a heterosexual norm by privileging PiV sex. This is an analysis of a western system in a western context, and not applied to your situation because it is a different cultural context that we cannot speak to - other than that your rights don't extend to defining anyone else, e.g., your claim that virginity/maidenhood is the state of being without a hymen.

Just highlighted something I find important. The extreme emphasis on PiV sex as the end all and be all is really harmful to many people. It also ties into the mythological status of the "virgin" as being some sort of "pure" state. There are no church bells playing or angels trumpeting to announce to the world that you've had PiV sex for the first time. Really, the notion that this is automatically and by necessity some sort of transformative life changing experience is total bullshit.

[Lord Toblerone]

ETA: ...Just checked this one's profile...never mind. There are no words.

Yup. Same here. Christ.

But very well articulated anyway, emberling. You're good at explaining this stuff.

[Glaurung]

Voodooqueen126 can you give me an example of a matriarchal society, not challenging you I'm just curious? I know in Turkmen society despite the oldest women being the head of the family women still have a pretty rough time as the youngest son's wife is basically just servant for her mother in law. That said the rest of that society is very patriarchal so it's not a great example.

Also does anyone have an idea why human societies tend to so strongly be patriarchal? It's a bit odd to me that the vast majority of societies are patriarchal.

I believe there was a Native American tribe in New Mexico or Arizona that was matriarchal. As for why they tend to be patriarchal.... It has a lot to do with our history. Even many species of animals tend to be patriarchal or matriarchal. Usually whichever sex is the stronger one. Gender roles came out of biological imperatives for the most efficiency and best chance for survival. Men were stronger and faster and thus took on the role of the protectors and the providers. I think primitive society tends to give the most power to those who are the most physically powerful, since prior to civilization, physical prowess would have been a commodity that is more highly valued. Even amongst men, the more powerful men are more likely to be the leaders. Social and gender norms I think evolve from this. These are outdated and no longer needed, but they are a hard thing to eliminate due to people feeling a need to hold onto tradition.

OK, that's creepy. I can't even fathom what sort of communities we're talking about. Can you help me a bit here? To the extent that any generalization can be made:

1) Are they middle class or working class or what?

2) Rural or urban?

3) Education level?

4) Who gets the means of production? Workshops, farms, garages, shops, factories, companies: who owns them and who runs them? I mean, is it 50/50% between men and women? Is it men only?

5) Are we talking about a handful of people here? Or entire villages and towns?

6) What the actual fuck?

They are quite rare, though they are gaining in popularity.

1) generally working or middle class

2) Definitely more rural, where traditions hold longer

3) Usually pretty low

4) It's not men only, though men are going to be more likely to hold most means of production.

5) Generally a handful of people here and there. Not really entire towns, though there may be a few exceptions. I think they are generally the minority wherever they are.

6) Dunno. It is quite creepy and sad.

While I agree that your concerns are valid I doubt the kind of people who go to purity balls give a flying fuck about homosexual marriage.

Also while I can't speak to evangelical culture. I can say that in Mormon circles virginity for guys and girls is emphasized fairly equally both guys and girls are expected to be virgins before marriage, and having witnessed the fallout from "some indiscretions," both the girls and the guys had to atone and both were eventually rehabilitated in the eyes of their community. At least in my experience for Mormons it's not really sexist so much as just controlling. But their pretty different then other Conservative Christian denominations, for example they strongly encourage dating and having many girlfriends/boyfriends before marriage and many evangelicals don't do that so I don't know if this example applies in general.

Also the only reasons purity balls/rings/other weird shit, exists is because of the liberalization of our culture. In more conservative parts of the world social pressure holds the norms in place, but because that is fading fast here they have to erect artificial and somewhat creepy barriers.

I don't think that is true of only mormon culture. I grew up in a predominantly Christian town. Boys were encouraged to be virgins as well and looked down upon if they were not. I remember our youth group giving the boys rubber bands to wear around our wrists and we had to snap ourselves every time we had an impure thought. however, we did not face the slut shaming or the degree of negativity that the girls would. Although boys were told to be virgins, they were looked more as a lost cause, that we weren't able to control ourselves no matter the repercussions(God not being happy with us and stuff..).

Well forgive me if I don't believe you. I might be young, but I wasn't born yesterday. I have serious doubts that sensible people are actually asking the fathers of middle-aged women for "permission" to marry them. This sounds like a total and above all intentional perversion of reality.

Such is why I reacted the way I did. Maidenism might have fallen out of common fashion, but that doesn't mean the word virgin should be considered a dirty word. I know it may be a shocking prospect, but some women actually take pride in their sexual identity. Virgin is the state of being chaste and having a hymen, nothing more. And it is something which I find a beautiful thing. Of course it's easier if you're a lesbian, but that's the whole point, it's a part of my sexual identity. And I intend to die a virgin, at least in the sense untouched by men, with my maidenhead intact. I take a lot of pride in that.

It is indeed a real thing.

BTW, you are not a virgin if you are having sex with other women. And I'm not really understanding your reasoning. The reason why some women take pride in their maidenism or holding to one's virginity is something some people take pride in is because they are saying no to temptation. They are denying desires and temptations in the pursuit of staying modest or pure. They take pride in their ability to stay true to a goal despite being tempted not to. Being a lesbian, you are not desiring sex with men and you are not facing daily temptation. So your virginity as it pertains to avoiding sex with men, is not a result of saying no to temptation, but rather is a natural state of your sexuality. Now...if you abstain from relations with other women, then maybe you can compare your situation.

[deleted01]

ETA: ...Just checked this one's profile...never mind. There are no words.

Goodness gracious me. What the hell did I just read.

[Taenqyrhae]

Are you saying you dont feel it is a bad thing to not know who the father of ones child is?

I posted in the wrong thread earlier, but I'll respond to this. No, I do not think it's a bad thing to not know who the father of one's child is. For a non-monogamous woman with a good number of sex partners, it's pretty likely that one wouldn't unless there were some special circumstances (e.g. there was only one man who did not use protection they slept with during that month). Why should being unsure whose sperm made it to your egg be bad?

[Glaurung]

I posted in the wrong thread earlier, but I'll respond to this. No, I do not think it's a bad thing to not know who the father of one's child is. For a non-monogamous woman with a good number of sex partners, it's pretty likely that one wouldn't unless there were some special circumstances (e.g. there was only one man who did not use protection they slept with during that month). Why should being unsure whose sperm made it to your egg be bad?

The only thing I can think of is that it might be nice for the father to actually know that he's a father.

[karaddin]

To play devils advocate, being aware of any hereditary health issues is also good. Don't think it's really pertinent to the point that was being made with the anecdote though.

[Glaurung]

I didn't think about that, but indeed that would be beneficial.

As to whether or not it's a bad thing to not know who the father is, one might say that it isn't a bad thing to NOT know who the father is, but it CAN be a good thing to know who the father is.

There might be support issues regarding paternity. If a woman does not have the money to care for a child herself, government will want a father named to assign child support rather than putting the cost on the tax payers.

So there is nothing wrong with it in a moral or ethical context. Positive identification can be positive in a fiscal, biological, or child rearing context.

[Taenqyrhae]

I definitely understand the need to understand the ancestry of a child for genetic health reasons, but that can wait until after the child is born - no point in having an uncomfortable medical procedure done to find out before. There's nothing irresponsible or bad about not knowing the father of the baby in your belly, but it might be a little irresponsible to not care about finding out once the child is born...but on the other hand, parenting is an intensely personal thing, and if a woman decides it's best if the child doesn't have any connection to the father, that's her choice. She may know that all the possible father candidates are not father material and would not WANT to know that, or she may not want them having a permanent role in her life.