Feminism: Allegations of Sexual Violations

[Glaurung]

These are already factors influenced by sexism. Child rearing is even in Sweden, where we have great parental leave rules, something that women take larger amounts of time off for. As a group, our wages suffer, our pensions suffer and our employers still see women aged 25-45 as a group that will spend a lot of time away from work due to children. Men with small children are starting to take more respnsibility, but the gap is still huge here. And we're probably one of the most progressive countries on earth! As for other places without compensation for parental leave, subventions for child care etc. the impact on women in the work force will be far bigger. In some places this is showing on the population. Take a country like Italy where the birth rates are at an extreme low, simply because women feel becoming parents is to shoot oneself in the foot. It condemns you to a life in shackles, stuck in the home looking after children while you are being supported by a husband. It's not just your self-reliance that is being threatened either since it may be simply impossible (or at least very uncomfortable) to live on just on salary given the economic crisis. In addition to this, on a much lower income, how are you going to support children too?

The illusions of "choice" that we apply to all women simply do not exist. That choice is already influenced by so many factors totally out of our control that choice is something we are taught we have, but which in reality we do not, quite often. Everyone likes to think they are a unique special snowflake made up of unique, personal choices influenced by nothing but the highest ideals and the most controlled thought processes, while reality is much likelier to be far messier and far more random than that. We are a product of our environment, our culture, our society, the people we meet, our socioeconomic background, the TV programs we watch (how many people took Archaeology at Uni because of Indiana Jones? I know at least three), the books we read and the time in which we were born. Etc.

In my view, it is impossible to explain away everything with "well, men have worked longer" or "women just choose different careers" because then you are describing symptoms, not causes. Describing symptoms may lead us to cause/causes but they are not causes. To find solutions you need to know the cause, with all the complexities.

I agree. However, these are symptoms of indirect sexism or gender stereotyping. People want to focus too much on sexism within the workplace(hiring a man over a woman even when both are equally qualified or even when the man is less qualified). While this is indeed real, I think the greater contributors to wage gap are society and gender norms that are reinforced at young ages. If you give men equal paternity leave, or at least close to equal, then you help to lessen the gap. We need to get rid of this notion that it is the woman's responsibility to be the primary care giver. This is so deeply engrained that even in feminist circles this seems to often be the default. If you encourage women to join tech fields, engineering, or big business you lessen the gap. If you change society so that women don't feel like their physical appearance is the sole determinant of what a man wants from them, or that men would be intimidated by a smart woman, they will be able to focus on more important things and....you lessen the gap. If you change society so that young men don't feel like they have to be successful and rich in order to attract a mate, you lessen the gap. Changing these things will lead to women having real choices. Even men do find their choices limited. For example, I wanted to be a paleontologist or get into history. I soon learned that I would not make any money doing these things, which is especially bad when I have student loans to pay off. I learned a long time ago that not having money makes it very difficult to find a date and even if you do, it is hard to keep her happy when you can't afford to do anything or go anywhere. Not only would I be expected to pay for most dates, even when on a date with a feminist, but I felt bad when I knew I couldn't. Even today I feel bad if my wife pays for a date, like it makes me less of a man or something. I know it isn't rational and I push it aside and let her pay, but it is engrained into me just the same way that it is engrained into the heads of a lot of women that their man should treat them like a princess. If you can change social expectations like this, you can change what motivates people and if you change motivation you loosen the bonds on career choice and .... lessen the gap. I don't see society doing this though, too much money is to be made by advertising to social stereotypes. It is on the younger generations to change these expectations. My wife and I are expecting our first child and it is a girl. I'm going to teach her that she can do anything that she wants and that she shouldn't rely on anyone, especially a man, to get her what she wants. Grandma is already buying her pink stuff and one "princess" shirt, which we threw in the back of the closet.

[TerraPrime]

If you give men equal paternity leave, or at least close to equal, then you help to lessen the gap. We need to get rid of this notion that it is the woman's responsibility to be the primary care giver.

Giving men the option to take paternity leave will be a start. But getting them to use it will be also a challenge. Part of the reason that the primary child care duty often defaults to the woman in a male-female couple is cultural factors, but another part is the economic consideration that women tend to make less money in general, either due to the nature of the job or stage of career. If, as a group, men do not take paternity leaves when offered, then there will always be a gap in time-at-wrok that contributes the differential between take-home wages.

This is so deeply engrained that even in feminist circles this seems to often be the default.

Women are often perpetrators of some of these sexist tropes, yes. There's a strain of feminism that focuses on the motherhood aspect of being a woman that I find very difficult to relate to. You sometimes see that strain surface in discussions concerning custody of children after a divorce or on the value of choosing to reproduce.

I learned a long time ago that not having money makes it very difficult to find a date and even if you do, it is hard to keep her happy when you can't afford to do anything or go anywhere. Not only would I be expected to pay for most dates, even when on a date with a feminist, but I felt bad when I knew I couldn't. Even today I feel bad if my wife pays for a date, like it makes me less of a man or something. I know it isn't rational and I push it aside and let her pay, but it is engrained into me just the same way that it is engrained into the heads of a lot of women that their man should treat them like a princess. If you can change social expectations like this, you can change what motivates people and if you change motivation you loosen the bonds on career choice and .... lessen the gap.

Indeed it is not rational. I mean, I can only assume, without data, that most male paleontologists and historians ended up getting married to a woman if they want to, nowadays. In fact, most men are married, one way or another, for long or short term. Clearly, people in the lowest income quintile still marry and have long-term romantic relations, so working at a job that requires a college degree, whatever the field, hardly seems like a death knell to romantic interests to me.

I think a distinction to be made is between a man preferring to be able to take his date out to a night's activities that will cost a decent chunk of change (say, an activity, dinner, drinks, totaling over $150 for 2), versus a woman who will not be interested in a man as a date unless he can do that. I haven't dated more than 1 woman, so I am in no good position to say this, but judging from my female friends, I'd say that if they like the guy, they'd be happy to pack a picnic and go spend a day at the national park or at a book fair with him.

I don't see society doing this though, too much money is to be made by advertising to social stereotypes. It is on the younger generations to change these expectations. My wife and I are expecting our first child and it is a girl. I'm going to teach her that she can do anything that she wants and that she shouldn't rely on anyone, especially a man, to get her what she wants. Grandma is already buying her pink stuff and one "princess" shirt, which we threw in the back of the closet.

I think gender roles that pressure men to be the providers and women to be the recipients are indeed pervasive and culturally dominant, but I also think that at this day and age in the U.S., and in most Westernized countries, deviating from these roles is actually not that difficult any more. The trick is, imo, not to have a thing for a man/woman who does dig these roles. In other words, I am lucky that I do not find any woman who expects men to pay for all the dates and to be wined'and'dined during courtship to be attractive. I actually gets really turned off by that kind of attitude. So if I were to date a woman, I would automatically eliminate any that falls into that category. On the other hand, if I tend to fall for the Princess types, then I'll have to be able to fulfill the role that they expect me to play in order to succeed at my courtship.

So I think there's room now, in society, to breathe and be more free about conforming to these gender roles. It's an improvement over how things were just merely 20 years ago. There are plenty of men, like you, who don't think it's right to put men in the provider role all the time and there are plenty of women who agree with that. Just need to get the two groups together to start dating each other more. ;)

And congrats on the baby-on-the-way. :)

[TrackerNeil]

So I think there's room now, in society, to breathe and be more free about conforming to these gender roles. It's an improvement over how things were just merely 20 years ago. There are plenty of men, like you, who don't think it's right to put men in the provider role all the time and there are plenty of women who agree with that. Just need to get the two groups together to start dating each other more. ;)

One of the nice things about being gay is that social norms/models for dating don't fit us, so we're required to negotiate each "obstacle" like who asks who out, which one pays for the date, etc. That negotiation can be exhausting, but it also keeps us conscious of what we're doing and what it means, and questioning standards of behavior is always a good thing. You heteros should get in on that action.

I don't know if this happened to you, TP, but after Dan and I married, we got all sorts of questions about who proposed to whom, was there an engagement ring, etc., which is what is usually asked of straight couples. I always have to answer "We mutually decided to marry--nobody asked anyone--and we didn't buy a ring because we thought it was a waste of money." I get that those questions are a sign of inclusion, and I appreciate that, but the fact that they are asked at all demonstrates just how unquestioned are many aspects of romantic relationships.

[Shryke]

One of the nice things about being gay is that social norms/models for dating don't fit us, so we're required to negotiate each "obstacle" like who asks who out, which one pays for the date, etc. That negotiation can be exhausting, but it also keeps us conscious of what we're doing and what it means, and questioning standards of behavior is always a good thing. You heteros should get in on that action.

I don't know if this happened to you, TP, but after Dan and I married, we got all sorts of questions about who proposed to whom, was there an engagement ring, etc., which is what is usually asked of straight couples. I always have to answer "We mutually decided to marry--nobody asked anyone--and we didn't buy a ring because we thought it was a waste of money." I get that those questions are a sign of inclusion, and I appreciate that, but the fact that they are asked at all demonstrates just how unquestioned are many aspects of romantic relationships.

That's more about societal traditions then gender roles though.

[TrackerNeil]

That's more about societal traditions then gender roles though.

From my perspective, they are hard to separate. Men are expected to propose marriage, and women to wait patiently for that proposal. Men must buy an engagement ring, even though in practice it seems that many women take part in the selection and payment. Women are allowed to make their own decision to marry, and yet many men feel as though they must ask her father for permission. Women take charge of the wedding, and men are basically just expected to rent a tux and show up. It's all tangled up in the ideas of man as pursuer and aggressor and woman as receptacle for his dreams, ambitions, and sexual gratification. It's toxic, in my view.

[ElizabethB.]

Real Princesses can provide for themselves and more, so they don't need anyone paying for dates. Or, are we using that word as a derogatory term for a "certain type of girls", I dunno, like we use the word whore?

[Shryke]

From my perspective, they are hard to separate. Men are expected to propose marriage, and women to wait patiently for that proposal. Men must buy an engagement ring, even though in practice it seems that many women take part in the selection and payment. Women are allowed to make their own decision to marry, and yet many men feel as though they must ask her father for permission. Women take charge of the wedding, and men are basically just expected to rent a tux and show up. It's all tangled up in the ideas of man as pursuer and aggressor and woman as receptacle for his dreams, ambitions, and sexual gratification. It's toxic, in my view.

Sure, but I'm saying when they are asking two gay guys about such and such tradition, they are just asking about the tradition itself because you can't actually bring over the cultural baggage. In this case, they are very neatly separated.

Like, if they asked you if you got an engagement ring, they aren't trying to suss out who's the bottom, it's just straight up "Is there a ring?". In a straight relationship this can bring along all sorts of cultural baggage even if they don't mean it to but it doesn't really work in a gay relationship.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Like, if they asked you if you got an engagement ring, they aren't trying to suss out who's the bottom, it's just straight up "Is there a ring?". In a straight relationship this can bring along all sorts of cultural baggage even if they don't mean it to but it doesn't really work in a gay relationship.

While I agree largely with TrackerNeil, I will also say that it's not so much about "is there a ring?" or "who performed what gender roles?" More often then not, most questions surrounding the proposal entail people wanting a narrative and story of the proposal. The fact that a man proposed to a woman is assumed in the heteronormative proposal narrative, so it's a detail that is often glossed over.

[TerraPrime]

From my perspective, they are hard to separate. Men are expected to propose marriage, and women to wait patiently for that proposal. Men must buy an engagement ring, even though in practice it seems that many women take part in the selection and payment. Women are allowed to make their own decision to marry, and yet many men feel as though they must ask her father for permission. Women take charge of the wedding, and men are basically just expected to rent a tux and show up. It's all tangled up in the ideas of man as pursuer and aggressor and woman as receptacle for his dreams, ambitions, and sexual gratification. It's toxic, in my view.

There are indeed many aspects that are very liberating for a same-sex relationship.

That said, it's not necessarily the case, just easier. I've known a few couples where despite being 2 men their interactions are quite gender-roled, for lack of a better term, i.e. a home-keeper doing most of the domestic housework and a wage-earner who does the fixer-upper things around the house. It's like Harriet and Ozzie stepping out into the real life only that it's Harry and Ozzie.

Also, as a predominantly men-oriented bisexual, I am also lucky that my antipathy for the traditional gender role scripts between men and women dating doesn't really cost me that much problems. I have the luxury to turn up my nose at these gender entrapments because well, I mostly like men anyway. I suspect that for men and women who like to date members of the other sex, they'd find it more cumbersome to navigate away from those social expectations.

[Glaurung]

Giving men the option to take paternity leave will be a start. But getting them to use it will be also a challenge. Part of the reason that the primary child care duty often defaults to the woman in a male-female couple is cultural factors, but another part is the economic consideration that women tend to make less money in general, either due to the nature of the job or stage of career. If, as a group, men do not take paternity leaves when offered, then there will always be a gap in time-at-wrok that contributes the differential between take-home wages.

Yeah it is a start. I think more men will use them as society changes. I personally don't understand guys who wouldn't. Then again, I don't love work but I do love kids. When my sister had her first daughter, she was with a guy who was....well....worthless. He was not a good person. I dropped out of college for a while(wanted to take some time off anyway) and moved in with my sister to help her out and to kind of watch over her to be frank. Helping her raise he daughter was very rewarding. I've known ever since that I wanted a family some day. If my wife made enough money, I'd stay home to be an in-home dad, no problem. BTW that isn't a shot at those who don't want to have kids. But if you DO want kids, then I don't understand why you wouldn't want to spend at least the first few weeks with them during a crucial bonding period. Personally I like the way they do it in Sweden(I think), where the mother & father split up time between themselves, but with incentives for the fathers to take at least a chunk of that time. 450-500 days(not sure) for the first child and I think about a half year for the 2nd. This would also help immensely with daycare as well. Daycare is getting so expensive that my wife and I don't know how we're going to pay for it. I think Daddy is going to lose a bit of weight...not that he's fat, but he likes to eat :).

Women are often perpetrators of some of these sexist tropes, yes. There's a strain of feminism that focuses on the motherhood aspect of being a woman that I find very difficult to relate to. You sometimes see that strain surface in discussions concerning custody of children after a divorce or on the value of choosing to reproduce.

It is a catch 22. Feminism encourages personal choice. You can choose a career, or you can choose to be a stay at home mom, or you can choose to do both. THAT is good. But on the other side of the coin, social norms may lead to a disproportionate # of women making choices that may hurt career growth and one of the goals of feminism is to see equality in the workforce which leads to wanting to see women well represented in positions of power within business, research, politics, etc.

Indeed it is not rational. I mean, I can only assume, without data, that most male paleontologists and historians ended up getting married to a woman if they want to, nowadays. In fact, most men are married, one way or another, for long or short term. Clearly, people in the lowest income quintile still marry and have long-term romantic relations, so working at a job that requires a college degree, whatever the field, hardly seems like a death knell to romantic interests to me.

People tend to marry at their station. They tend to marry others who are at a similar attractiveness level, or career level, or social status. It might not always be conscious, but it works out that way. When you are more attractive, have a successful or ambitious career, etc, you tend to have more options. Before I went back to college and I was working labor jobs, or low-skill jobs, my prospects in the dating world were much less than they were after I graduated(or before graduation) when I had good career prospects in a respectable field. Let's just say that after college, the women I was dating were better educated, typically more mature, more likely to want a family but less likely to already have kids(not that I was against dating somebody with kids). Overall it just becomes more difficult to find a stable relationship when you pull up to the date in a 10 year old dented up Chevy Cavalier, or if you're 30 and still working at Jimmy Johns, or you're working on the welding line.

I think a distinction to be made is between a man preferring to be able to take his date out to a night's activities that will cost a decent chunk of change (say, an activity, dinner, drinks, totaling over $150 for 2), versus a woman who will not be interested in a man as a date unless he can do that. I haven't dated more than 1 woman, so I am in no good position to say this, but judging from my female friends, I'd say that if they like the guy, they'd be happy to pack a picnic and go spend a day at the national park or at a book fair with him.

It isn't necessarily important at first, but you can only come up with so many interesting and romantic ideas for dates, that are actually cheap. After a while things get more difficult, and nobody likes to struggle financially, especially if they have never had to and it puts a strain on long-term relationships. I think it is also probably different among your crowd than most. You likely have a more enlightened social circle. In the mainstream, especially in the midwest like where I live, people are more likely to fall into these social norms. I got lucky. I'm married to a wonderful woman who loves nothing more than to hang out with me on a friday night and watch netflix. If there is a god, he/she shined a light on me the day I was lucky enough to run into her. As near perfect as she is, even she falls into these traps from time to time(as do I). I know she wishes the diamond on her ring was a little bigger or that I bring her flowers more often, or that I would pamper her more. She also knows that these things aren't important.

I think gender roles that pressure men to be the providers and women to be the recipients are indeed pervasive and culturally dominant, but I also think that at this day and age in the U.S., and in most Westernized countries, deviating from these roles is actually not that difficult any more. The trick is, imo, not to have a thing for a man/woman who does dig these roles. In other words, I am lucky that I do not find any woman who expects men to pay for all the dates and to be wined'and'dined during courtship to be attractive. I actually gets really turned off by that kind of attitude. So if I were to date a woman, I would automatically eliminate any that falls into that category. On the other hand, if I tend to fall for the Princess types, then I'll have to be able to fulfill the role that they expect me to play in order to succeed at my courtship.

Very true, and I usually did avoid those types. But at the same time, I'm more interested in if she has similar interests as me, or a similar personality, or chemistry. I'm a shy person, so it is difficult to connect with people in the first place, so that connection is most important to me. If she expects some of these things, so long as she is not over the top with it, I always found it a small price to pay in the long run. It's not like I'm perfect either.

So I think there's room now, in society, to breathe and be more free about conforming to these gender roles. It's an improvement over how things were just merely 20 years ago. There are plenty of men, like you, who don't think it's right to put men in the provider role all the time and there are plenty of women who agree with that. Just need to get the two groups together to start dating each other more. ;)

I agree. It is getting better all the time. As much as people want to be doom and gloom over it, things are improving on these fronts and society is becoming more accepting overall. I'm in an interracial relationship and when my wife and I started dating, we used to receive looks all the time. Now it is rare that we receive looks and even more rare that we receive a negative look. That is just 6 years of progress. My best man came out last year(shocking to all of us as he's a beer drinking, burping, fishing kind of guy). He brought us to his house because he had to tell us something. When he told us, we all just smiled with relief because we were all afraid he had cancer. No, he's just gay. Nobody cared. Only 10 years ago it wouldn't have played out that way.

And congrats on the baby-on-the-way. :)

Thanks!! We're both very excited. Now if only we could both agree on a name!

[TrackerNeil]

I suspect that for men and women who like to date members of the other sex, they'd find it more cumbersome to navigate away from those social expectations.

Particularly when so many of them seem invested in these rituals. This is a total anecdote, but I'll share anyway. Some time last year, I posted on Facebook something about men asking fathers permissions to marry their daughters. I don't have any Stepford Wives on my friend list either, so I figured most of them would agree it was an archaic patronizing little custom we'd be well rid of. I could not have been more wrong. Most of the women who posted said they thought it was cute, "gentlemanly" and not at all patronizing. I was (and still am) floored by the response, so I checked with two or three female feminist friends, offline, who all agreed with me, so I knew I wasn't crazy.

Again, not scientific, but my point is that many men and women (I'm talking heterosexual here) buy into these gender-regulating constructs without ever really examining their implications, and that makes it harder for those who want to step away. After all, how does a man who wants to propose marriage without first consulting his fiance's father do so when he *knows* she thinks that's sweet?

[KiDisaster]

Particularly when so many of them seem invested in these rituals. This is a total anecdote, but I'll share anyway. Some time last year, I posted on Facebook something about men asking fathers permissions to marry their daughters. I don't have any Stepford Wives on my friend list either, so I figured most of them would agree it was an archaic patronizing little custom we'd be well rid of. I could not have been more wrong. Most of the women who posted said they thought it was cute, "gentlemanly" and not at all patronizing. I was (and still am) floored by the response, so I checked with two or three female feminist friends, offline, who all agreed with me, so I knew I wasn't crazy.

Again, not scientific, but my point is that many men and women (I'm talking heterosexual here) buy into these gender-regulating constructs without ever really examining their implications, and that makes it harder for those who want to step away. After all, how does a man who wants to propose marriage without first consulting his fiance's father do so when he *knows* she thinks that's sweet?

Totally agree with you.

I ended up getting into a fairly heated discussion with a group of friends who are generally pretty progressive when this issue came up and I said that I would 100% refuse to ever ask a woman's father for his permission to date her or propose to her. I also know a fair few guys who identify as feminists but have admitted that the idea of being proposed to by their girlfriends instead of it being the other way around is weird to them. It's just so deeply ingrained I guess that it's hard to ignore even if you know it's silly and archaic.

I'll fully admit that if I were ever in a situation where I wanted to marry someone, I'd want do it the old fashioned way; down on one knee with a surprise ring rather than a "Hey, we should get hitched." conversation (not that there's anything wrong with doing it that way). Maybe you can chalk that up to me just being a hopeless romantic and a sucker for the dramatic, but even that is probably all tied up in gender roles and whatnot. Maybe it's a problematic attitude on my part too, I dunno :dunno:

Though I should add, I wouldn't be upset or offended or weirded out if I were proposed to by someone I was dating or if she brought it up as something we should discuss as a mutual decision (in fact it being a totally mutual decision rather than one person springing it on the other is probably the best way to do it really). "Popping the question" would just be my preference I guess.

[Shryke]

Particularly when so many of them seem invested in these rituals. This is a total anecdote, but I'll share anyway. Some time last year, I posted on Facebook something about men asking fathers permissions to marry their daughters. I don't have any Stepford Wives on my friend list either, so I figured most of them would agree it was an archaic patronizing little custom we'd be well rid of. I could not have been more wrong. Most of the women who posted said they thought it was cute, "gentlemanly" and not at all patronizing. I was (and still am) floored by the response, so I checked with two or three female feminist friends, offline, who all agreed with me, so I knew I wasn't crazy.

Again, not scientific, but my point is that many men and women (I'm talking heterosexual here) buy into these gender-regulating constructs without ever really examining their implications, and that makes it harder for those who want to step away. After all, how does a man who wants to propose marriage without first consulting his fiance's father do so when he *knows* she thinks that's sweet?

That whole "asking permission to marry your daughter" thing is fucking weird.

Everyone I know seems to view it not so much as insulting, but as a combination of weird and quaint.

[Summah]

Particularly when so many of them seem invested in these rituals. This is a total anecdote, but I'll share anyway. Some time last year, I posted on Facebook something about men asking fathers permissions to marry their daughters. I don't have any Stepford Wives on my friend list either, so I figured most of them would agree it was an archaic patronizing little custom we'd be well rid of. I could not have been more wrong. Most of the women who posted said they thought it was cute, "gentlemanly" and not at all patronizing. I was (and still am) floored by the response, so I checked with two or three female feminist friends, offline, who all agreed with me, so I knew I wasn't crazy.

Again, not scientific, but my point is that many men and women (I'm talking heterosexual here) buy into these gender-regulating constructs without ever really examining their implications, and that makes it harder for those who want to step away. After all, how does a man who wants to propose marriage without first consulting his fiance's father do so when he *knows* she thinks that's sweet?

If some guy asked my father's permission to marry me I would dump him. Even if I already said yes to a proposal. I don't have a lot of things I consider absolute deal breakers, but this is actually one of them.

That whole "asking permission to marry your daughter" thing is fucking weird.

Everyone I know seems to view it not so much as insulting, but as a combination of weird and quaint.

I think it is insulting, because it implies that my father has control over whether or not someone can marry me (because in the past fathers did have that kind of control and in a legal sense women were their father's or husband's property), even though I am an adult, in all ways hat matter including legally.

[brook]

Summah I'm the same. Aside from the fact I find the very idea personally insulting anyone who tried to do that (or even ask my mother which would be somewhat more relevant) would be showing themselves to have so little idea of who I am and my relationship with my family that I really shouldn't be seeing them let alone marrying them.

ETA I did tell Kara's mother I was intending to propose before I did so but

a) WE did it, I just did the talking

b) I was informing not asking, and it was because I wanted to make sure she knew in case she wasn't with us when it happened.

and

c) We'd obviously already discussed and agreed to things together. There was just no official engagement yet because I wanted to be divorced first.

[karaddin]

Just to elaborate for those that haven't been reading other threads, for Brook's B ) - my mother was dying of of a brain tumout and we wanted her to know I was with someone and happy and going to be looked after, that's what she meant by not with us. And according to the timetable we had in mind when we decided to tell Mum, she wouldn't have been with us still as I wasn't expecting Brook to propose until Feb/March at the earliest and Mum is gone now, Brook just surprised me and moved up the schedule. In addition to Brook wanting to be divorced first (which didn't get to happen in the end), I also really wanted to be proposed to. It felt important to me as part of affirming my identity and she obliged in the best possible way.

Tracker - My Dad just couldn't wrap his head around Brook being the one to propose to me. He's accepted me as his daughter now, but that one just really threw him, I guess probably in part because I'm basically a foot taller than her too so I look like I should play that role in the relationship, but regularly I'm the one curled up in her lap with her protectively holding me and I feel like the small one safe in my strong partners arms.

With the parent thing, with my previous marriage I proposed to my ex first, rather impulsively and without a ring, I then broke it to her parents on my own by asking for their blessing. I too find the idea of permission insulting, but I'm OK with the parents saying "yes we like you, we will welcome you into the family" knowing that it's going to happen regardless of whether they say no.

[MerenthaClone]

I cannot imagine asking a father for permission to marry someone's daughter.

[TrackerNeil]

I'll fully admit that if I were ever in a situation where I wanted to marry someone, I'd want do it the old fashioned way; down on one knee with a surprise ring rather than a "Hey, we should get hitched." conversation (not that there's anything wrong with doing it that way). Maybe you can chalk that up to me just being a hopeless romantic and a sucker for the dramatic, but even that is probably all tied up in gender roles and whatnot. Maybe it's a problematic attitude on my part too, I dunno :dunno:

Though I should add, I wouldn't be upset or offended or weirded out if I were proposed to by someone I was dating or if she brought it up as something we should discuss as a mutual decision (in fact it being a totally mutual decision rather than one person springing it on the other is probably the best way to do it really). "Popping the question" would just be my preference I guess.

I don't mean to sound as though I condemn those who want to present a ring on bended knee, nor do I think it's wrong for men to feel weird about a woman proposing to them. I do think it's important for us all to examine and explore these traditions, and then determine if they work for us. I used to be very anti-tradition, until I realized that I celebrated the Halloween tradition every year. Only then did I realize it's not tradition that's wrong, but a slavish adherence to tradition. As has been said, in decision-making, tradition should have a voice, not a veto.

If some guy asked my father's permission to marry me I would dump him. Even if I already said yes to a proposal. I don't have a lot of things I consider absolute deal breakers, but this is actually one of them.

I think it is insulting, because it implies that my father has control over whether or not someone can marry me (because in the past fathers did have that kind of control and in a legal sense women were their father's or husband's property), even though I am an adult, in all ways hat matter including legally.

That's the exception to what I just said. I think that custom is silly, patronizing, and outright insulting. As you say, it's a direct reference to a time in which women were considered the near-property of the men in their lives, and why does that time need revisiting? We wouldn't expect African-Americans to be deferential to some slave-holding custom, and in fact we'd never dare to suggest it. And rightly so.

[karaddin]

I don't mean to sound as though I condemn those who want to present a ring on bended knee, nor do I think it's wrong for men to feel weird about a woman proposing to them. I do think it's important for us all to examine and explore these traditions, and then determine if they work for us. I used to be very anti-tradition, until I realized that I celebrated the Halloween tradition every year. Only then did I realize it's not tradition that's wrong, but a slavish adherence to tradition. As has been said, in decision-making, tradition should have a voice, not a veto.

Must say I've been having thoughts along similar lines regarding funerals. I may disagree with the content of the funeral, but the fact that not just humans have been doing them for longer than history, but that Elephants essentially have them too should tell me something. A ceremony of letting go is fucking important, regardless of what is said within that ceremony.

[Lyanna Stark]

Even men do find their choices limited. For example, I wanted to be a paleontologist or get into history. I soon learned that I would not make any money doing these things, which is especially bad when I have student loans to pay off. I learned a long time ago that not having money makes it very difficult to find a date and even if you do, it is hard to keep her happy when you can't afford to do anything or go anywhere. Not only would I be expected to pay for most dates, even when on a date with a feminist, but I felt bad when I knew I couldn't. Even today I feel bad if my wife pays for a date, like it makes me less of a man or something. I know it isn't rational and I push it aside and let her pay, but it is engrained into me just the same way that it is engrained into the heads of a lot of women that their man should treat them like a princess. If you can change social expectations like this, you can change what motivates people and if you change motivation you loosen the bonds on career choice and .... lessen the gap. I don't see society doing this though, too much money is to be made by advertising to social stereotypes. It is on the younger generations to change these expectations. My wife and I are expecting our first child and it is a girl. I'm going to teach her that she can do anything that she wants and that she shouldn't rely on anyone, especially a man, to get her what she wants. Grandma is already buying her pink stuff and one "princess" shirt, which we threw in the back of the closet.

Congratulations on the future addition to your family!

I agree with you that expectations we set for ourselves is perhaps half the trouble, and this is a complex topic. Sometimes, even if you rationally know something, it us much harder to live that way in real life. Regarding the money for parents and parental leave, here it is equal in the sense that men can take out half (or more) of the parental leave and get as much money as women. As percentage of their salary. Since men generally make more than women, for most families that still ends up with the woman being at home while the kids are small as the financially most beneficial decision. Which means this is what normally happens. I cannot in good conscience really fault families for making that type of decisions. Money is important, especially in this day and age where wages are pressed down and cost of living is going up. Sometimes, it's not even a choice but a necessity.

So despite the law being equal for men and women here with regards to parental leave, the out-take of parental leave is not equal. Sometimes it is even extremely lopsided. From what they've been able to deduce from our statistics, if you are well educated and have a fairly stable income, basically if you are middle class, rather well off, the father is far more likely to take parental leave. On the other hand, if a family is working class, lower level of education and lower income, it's more likely that the mother will take all, or at least the lion's share, or the child-rearing burdens.

Particularly when so many of them seem invested in these rituals. This is a total anecdote, but I'll share anyway. Some time last year, I posted on Facebook something about men asking fathers permissions to marry their daughters. I don't have any Stepford Wives on my friend list either, so I figured most of them would agree it was an archaic patronizing little custom we'd be well rid of. I could not have been more wrong. Most of the women who posted said they thought it was cute, "gentlemanly" and not at all patronizing. I was (and still am) floored by the response, so I checked with two or three female feminist friends, offline, who all agreed with me, so I knew I wasn't crazy.

Again, not scientific, but my point is that many men and women (I'm talking heterosexual here) buy into these gender-regulating constructs without ever really examining their implications, and that makes it harder for those who want to step away. After all, how does a man who wants to propose marriage without first consulting his fiance's father do so when he *knows* she thinks that's sweet?

Oh God, I'd find it so embarrassing if someone tried to ask my dad for permission. Although it would be worth it just to have his reaction to that recorded. He'd really enjoy carrying out that put down. Alternatively, he'd die laughing. But then I've kept my name post marriage as well.

But yeah, I share your 0.o over that one.