Feminism: Allegations of Sexual Violations

[Born Yesterday]

In many conservative Christian circles this is actually expected. See, for instsance, things like Purity Balls where the daughters pledge their virginity to their fathers until such time when their fathers relinquish the ownership of said virginity to their husbands. This shit happens, in the United States. In those contexts, "permission" is NOT the same as "blessing."

OK, that's creepy. I can't even fathom what sort of communities we're talking about. Can you help me a bit here? To the extent that any generalization can be made:

1) Are they middle class or working class or what?

2) Rural or urban?

3) Education level?

4) Who gets the means of production? Workshops, farms, garages, shops, factories, companies: who owns them and who runs them? I mean, is it 50/50% between men and women? Is it men only?

5) Are we talking about a handful of people here? Or entire villages and towns?

6) What the actual fuck?

[Shryke]

In many conservative Christian circles this is actually expected. See, for instsance, things like Purity Balls where the daughters pledge their virginity to their fathers until such time when their fathers relinquish the ownership of said virginity to their husbands. This shit happens, in the United States. In those contexts, "permission" is NOT the same as "blessing."

I assumed we were all just assuming scenarios involving those people were bad long before we got to the "ask for the parents blessing" situation.

[TerraPrime]

I assumed we were all just assuming scenarios involving those people were bad long before we got to the "ask for the parents blessing" situation.

Those are definitely the extream end of the examples, but even people who don't ascribe to things like the Purity Balls do actually expect the man to ask permission to date and/or marry a woman. The issue so far is that some people just don't think that such a thing exists, so they think "permission" and "blessing" mean the same thing. To those of us who know that the practice still exists, it's clearly not the same thing, and we're dondemning the "permission" and not the "blessing."

[TrackerNeil]

In many conservative Christian circles this is actually expected. See, for instsance, things like Purity Balls where the daughters pledge their virginity to their fathers until such time when their fathers relinquish the ownership of said virginity to their husbands. This shit happens, in the United States. In those contexts, "permission" is NOT the same as "blessing."

Another sign of the fetishized fascination with the sexual status of women, the one I mentioned upthread.

[deleted01]

I did not make this shit up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_ball

This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me angry. The idea that women are the property of the men in their lives, and that a father has the right to control her sexuality. Not only does it completely dismiss non-heterosexual relationships, it also reinforces frustrating gender norms, and is, to be completely frank, pretty creepy.

It was mentioned in that article that such practices encourage fathers to become more involved in their daughters' lives. I can support that. But I cannot support a father having complete and utter control over a woman and her future. What absolute nonsense.

These sexist traditions surrounding heterosexual marriage are the reasons why I support civil partnerships becoming legal for all couples. Just the idea of a man "giving me away" to another man makes me feel sick. While I accept that some people see the tradition as simply a way to include someone (not necessarily their father, or even a man nowadays) in theit wedding, which I can understand, I can't quite bring myself to engage in the tradition myself. I'm extremely glad that my partner identifies as a feminist, agrees with me on many things, and is open to all kinds of discussion.

(Excuse the rant. Thanks for the information, Terra.)

[Darzin]

While I agree that your concerns are valid I doubt the kind of people who go to purity balls give a flying fuck about homosexual marriage.

Also while I can't speak to evangelical culture. I can say that in Mormon circles virginity for guys and girls is emphasized fairly equally both guys and girls are expected to be virgins before marriage, and having witnessed the fallout from "some indiscretions," both the girls and the guys had to atone and both were eventually rehabilitated in the eyes of their community. At least in my experience for Mormons it's not really sexist so much as just controlling. But their pretty different then other Conservative Christian denominations, for example they strongly encourage dating and having many girlfriends/boyfriends before marriage and many evangelicals don't do that so I don't know if this example applies in general.

Also the only reasons purity balls/rings/other weird shit, exists is because of the liberalization of our culture. In more conservative parts of the world social pressure holds the norms in place, but because that is fading fast here they have to erect artificial and somewhat creepy barriers.

[Crom Dubh]

While I agree that your concerns are valid I doubt the kind of people who go to purity balls give a flying fuck about homosexual marriage.

Well, they probably hate its existence and wish it was eliminated, but that's just part and parcel of American religious conservatism.

[Daughter of Hell]

YES this tradition exists, you may have noticed I was NOT the one who brought it up in the first place, and many other people have discussed it as being something which happens. Frequently. Whether you wish to believe it or not.

Well forgive me if I don't believe you. I might be young, but I wasn't born yesterday. I have serious doubts that sensible people are actually asking the fathers of middle-aged women for "permission" to marry them. This sounds like a total and above all intentional perversion of reality.

Lastly she's my fiancée not my friend.

And what a catch you are that she's caught. Forgive me if I call you impertinent, but you earned it. Please do not laugh at me again or I'll think of another... less civil word for you.

Also continue to tell me I'm making up the culture I live in just to complain about it. I'd love to live in a society where this shit didn't exist as anything more than a straw man.

If you don't want to cast doubts in your audience, don't use sensationalist words. When I see the word permission I immediately knew the majority of people saying this were actually referring to blessing. And when people use this sort of speech, it is to cause an emotional response rather than a rational one. Hence my doubts. It's like using the word purchase instead of dowry. If you don't like the idea of being "bought" then fair enough, but make a sensible discussion of it. And if you weren't doing this, I'm sorry. I am simply naturally skeptical however, after some of the words I've seen thrown around to describe perfectly normal things.

In any case, if you are telling it true without any sort of exaggeration or embellishment nor twisting of the truths, then I do agree with you, for what it's worth...

(and for most of us, whatever gender, 'virgin' is considered negative, at least among one's own generation - there's little pressure to maintain virginity outside the most conservative communities).

I read your whole reply and took it in. It's fair enough. But not this point.

Yes, virginity is considered a negative in many modern societies. And don't you realize that this is a negative thing? The state of maidenhood is one's sexuality. And one's sexuality is not something to be mocked. The words used to describe it are not something to be ashamed of, virgin, may, maid, maiden, maidenhead, maidenhood. And a lot of young people are indeed humiliated for their sexual status, which leads them to pursue scenarios which might better be left until they have a more complete picture of their vision for their own unique sexual identity in mind.

Such is why I reacted the way I did. Maidenism might have fallen out of common fashion, but that doesn't mean the word virgin should be considered a dirty word. I know it may be a shocking prospect, but some women actually take pride in their sexual identity. Virgin is the state of being chaste and having a hymen, nothing more. And it is something which I find a beautiful thing. Of course it's easier if you're a lesbian, but that's the whole point, it's a part of my sexual identity. And I intend to die a virgin, at least in the sense untouched by men, with my maidenhead intact. I take a lot of pride in that.

I think we are all being trolled.

Ha ha ha! No but really, this is sad because I always get this. Please keep in mind, if someone thinks differently, they are not inherently a troll. I hate it when people try to dismiss my views as trolling. I was making a serious point with the wedding "permission" thingy.

I dunno, I'm imagining her as a white girl from New Zealand growing up in Thailand, detached from both the culture that surrounds her and the culture her family comes from, somewhat.

A unique perspective.

It does give you a unique perspective. You cannot imagine. People do not realize how artificial culture is until they grow up surrounded by one that they are not a part of. When you spend so long observing things from such a detached perspective, you get very good at spotting the details of it.

[cdawnb]

Oh for fucks sake.

My ex asked my dad for permission to marry me. (That probably should have been my first clue that he was an idiot). So did my two of my brother in laws. You can't tell me that didn't happen because it did. No amount of pontificating on your part is going to change that.

Many women are virgins and don't have hymens. Just so you know.

Nobody here cares one way or another whether your are a virgin, sexuality active, trans or a member of the gay community. Really. It's your sexuality and no one is going to tell you to change it or look down on you for it.

[Daughter of Hell]

Another sign of the fetishized fascination with the sexual status of women, the one I mentioned upthread.

Well perhaps you should stop mentioning it, at least in the "upthread" case. And stop thinking of other people's sexual status as a "fetishized fascination" because it is appalling. Read my reply to emberling in the above post. That was because of you. And I can assure you, being a virgin has absolutely nothing to do with the gratification of anyone's fetish, in fact it is by default quite the opposite (when one takes pride in their status).

Nobody here cares one way or another whether your are a virgin, sexuality active, trans or a member of the gay community. Really. It's your sexuality and no one is going to tell you to change it or look down on you for it.

I wouldn't have brought it up, except the above [removed a word describing a bad person, trying to be polite here] seems to think the words describing my sexual identity are somehow offensive. Don't you see the problem with that? I sure as hell do.,

[karaddin]

No, I don't use the word permission to sensationalise it, I use the word permission because it was accurate. If you wan't a civil discourse, try not to accuse us of lying when you clearly don't know what you are talking about. When I'm talking about blessing, I use the word blessing and I have certain views on it. When I use the word permission, I'm talking about permission and I have different views on that. But by all means tell me once again I know nothing about my culture while you tell me my own word for my own sexuality is a word noone uses for their own sexuality, and dismiss anything anyone says about your culture as being western ignorance.

Loving the way you insult both me and my fiancee though, just because you have decided we are liars based on your own flight of fancy.

[Gneisenau]

While I agree that your concerns are valid I doubt the kind of people who go to purity balls give a flying fuck about homosexual marriage.

Also while I can't speak to evangelical culture. I can say that in Mormon circles virginity for guys and girls is emphasized fairly equally both guys and girls are expected to be virgins before marriage, and having witnessed the fallout from "some indiscretions," both the girls and the guys had to atone and both were eventually rehabilitated in the eyes of their community. At least in my experience for Mormons it's not really sexist so much as just controlling. But their pretty different then other Conservative Christian denominations, for example they strongly encourage dating and having many girlfriends/boyfriends before marriage and many evangelicals don't do that so I don't know if this example applies in general.

Also the only reasons purity balls/rings/other weird shit, exists is because of the liberalization of our culture. In more conservative parts of the world social pressure holds the norms in place, but because that is fading fast here they have to erect artificial and somewhat creepy barriers.

Yes, but do Mormon boys pledge their chastity to their mom for her to give to the boy's future wife ?

[emberling]

Yes, virginity is considered a negative in many modern societies. And don't you realize that this is a negative thing?

yes, it is absolutely negative that virginity is mocked, but that's not because virginity is somehow good. It's because the concept of virginity - whether it's considered good, bad, or neutral - is incredibly harmful. It places a mythic significance onto the first sex act and onto an extremely ill-understood bit of anatomy which is falsely considered to be indicative of whether someone has had sex.

talking about what should be does not change that the near-universal western situation is one where there is a great pressure to not be a virgin, even in very conservative communities, contrary to your assumption that traditional = virgin. As TP and others have noted, there is also great pressure to remain a virgin in conservative communities, but that pressure is imposed from above by authority figures, not from one's own peers and best friends. Peer pressure usually wins and the result is mostly sex in secret and a high rate of unplanned pregnancy.

Please realize that your unique detached perspective does not grant you supernatural knowledge of western cultural praxis. You are telling people who literally live with this shit every day that it doesn't exist. Maybe as an outsider you're uniquely suited to analyze it, once you know it. But you do not know it better than we do. You want to know why you get called a troll? Because you put your own uninformed supposition over the personal experience of multiple other people.

[brook]

So can we stop playing with the troll and go back to talking about feminism yet?

Please do not laugh at me again or I'll think of another... less civil word for you.

lol

[Underfoot]

Well forgive me if I don't believe you. I might be young, but I wasn't born yesterday. I have serious doubts that sensible people are actually asking the fathers of middle-aged women for "permission" to marry them. This sounds like a total and above all intentional perversion of reality.

There is a very popular song (in the U.S. at least) about this very subject. It's real, I promise.

(to anyone who actually listens to the song, I apologize in advance. It is terrible.)

[Gillio]

I just put trolls on ignore till they get themselves banned.

it doesnt usually take long.

Perth seems to be similar to what Brooke and Kara are describing with regard to "permission".

[Lord Toblerone]

yes, it is absolutely negative that virginity is mocked, but that's not because virginity is somehow good. It's because the concept of virginity - whether it's considered good, bad, or neutral - is incredibly harmful. It places a mythic significance onto the first sex act and onto an extremely ill-understood bit of anatomy which is falsely considered to be indicative of whether someone has had sex.

talking about what should be does not change that the near-universal western situation is one where there is a great pressure to not be a virgin, even in very conservative communities, contrary to your assumption that traditional = virgin. As TP and others have noted, there is also great pressure to remain a virgin in conservative communities, but that pressure is imposed from above by authority figures, not from one's own peers and best friends. Peer pressure usually wins and the result is mostly sex in secret and a high rate of unplanned pregnancy.

Please realize that your unique detached perspective does not grant you supernatural knowledge of western cultural praxis. You are telling people who literally live with this shit every day that it doesn't exist. Maybe as an outsider you're uniquely suited to analyze it, once you know it. But you do not know it better than we do. You want to know why you get called a troll? Because you put your own uninformed supposition over the personal experience of multiple other people.

Very well said emberling.

Daughter of Hell you have been very rude and insulting to certain posters.

Please understand that your personal attachment to these concepts of virginity and maidenhood does not negate the criticism others have. And your lack of experience or understanding of something does not mean that something doesn't exist.

[Darzin]

Yes, but do Mormon boys pledge their chastity to their mom for her to give to the boy's future wife ?

No but neither do the girls have purity balls, at least not that I am aware of the ward near my home never did. I was just pointing out that this emphasis on chastity isn't solely about controlling women and at least in the US it's been updated somewhat to a more equal standard of expectations, but once again I'm not sure how much this applies the rest of American Christendom.But it's just interesting to me how in more sexist societies it is more about controlling women while man can do as they like, but in America "purity" is becoming more and more expected of both. I do know some evangelical groups have something similar to AA for men to try to keep them virgins, but from what I understand they view virginity in a more sexist light.

[The Once and Future King]

I overheard something tonight from my kids. I took my daughters, 8 and 13, with me to the grocery store earlier. I noticed while in line they were looking at a tabloid with a headline about Miley Cyrus being pregnant. Later I was having a smoke in the master bathroom and overheard them talking in the front yard through the window.

8 Year Old - Did you see that newspaper about Miley Cyrus being pregnant?

13 Year Old - Yeah.

8 Year Old - I bet she doesn't even know who the father is!

I'm wondering where the heck she picked up those kinds of attitudes. We don't do slut-shaming in our household and neither my wife or I have ever expressed any kind of disapproval or dislike of Miley Cyrus or any celebrities for their sexual freedom or anything like that. I could see where the 13 year old picks up stuff like that from her peers in middle school, but the 8 year old has always seemed pretty innocent and uninterested in that aspect of life, and I don't know where she would get the idea that Miley Cyrus might not know who the father of her child is and that this is a bad thing.

After that they kind of changed subjects and were calling her Meowey Cyrus and singing their own version of Wrecking Ball with the lyrics changed to be about cats. I haven't confronted her yet about the pregnancy comments.

Are you saying you dont feel it is a bad thing to not know who the father of ones child is?

[brook]

Yes, that is clearly exactly what he was saying there.