Feminism: Allegations of Sexual Violations

[Daughter of Hell]

Where the fuck do you live that you would assume any discussion of marriage would involve teenagers?

And yes, any father who is 'protective' of his adult daughter's sexuality is creepy as fuck. Clearly we are all talking about adults because we are talking about marriage and children do not get married.

I live in Thailand. And most marriages in this country occur when people are in their teens and they marry for life. Adult marriages are far less common. I have never been to an adult wedding. I'm sorry if my background confused you, but I believe you'll find you Westerners are in the minority in this regard, so please keep an open mind.

[Daughter of Hell]

While the implications are definitely different and permission is a weird and off-putting way to say it, I kinda feel like ultimately they work out to the same thing.

But that may be because I can't imagine that the parents saying "No" to you asking their permission to marry their daughter would ever actually matter. The only reaction to that I can picture is "Well fuck you, we're getting married anyway."

This is the picture I was drawing. The asking was just the polite thing to do, but the answer doesn't change things.

[brook]

Well just to be clear yes we were discussing a custom that is still common in the west involving adults.

With that in mind we do seem to agree that asking an adult womans father for permission to marry her is bizzare.

[Darzin]

Where do you live in Thailand though? Because the average age for a girl to get married there is 22, and I'm pretty sure girls in Bangkok aren't getting married at 14.

[Daughter of Hell]

Well just to be clear yes we were discussing a custom that is still common in the west involving adults.

With that in mind we do seem to agree that asking an adult womans father for permission to marry her is bizzare.

No, the permission thing is fairly common in Thailand too. In Thailand, the groom has to pay a dowry of about 500,000 baht to the bride's family. I mean, this is about $15,000 USD, which is worth more like $100,000 here given the buying power differences, so a lot of money. Given this, the parents are highly involved.

But is asking for the blessing in marrying a 30 year old woman really a Western tradition? I don't think so. It sounds more like something invented by an idiot who read about it in a history book but had no idea exactly what it entailed. I mean, to say tradition, then we are imply a young woman, typically a virgin, and the father will receive a large dowry. Now that has some outdated sexism wrapped up in it, having to "buy" the girl from her father, but the traditional circumstances are pretty clear. On the other hand, marrying a 30 year old woman who is not a virgin and you will not be paying any significant dowry, there is no tradition here. None.

[Daughter of Hell]

Where do you live in Thailand though? Because the average age for a girl to get married there is 22, and I'm pretty sure girls in Bangkok aren't getting married at 14.

Nakhon Si Thammarat province, in rural Thailand. Weddings are a big deal here and hard to miss. I've seen several over the last few years and only one of them involved older people. I don't know about the official stats, but yes, the vast majority of weddings here are teenagers, in my experience.

[brook]

lol are you seriously lecturing us all on the practices of the culture we live in because it doesn't align to what you would expect?

[karaddin]

I was actually wondering if you were a non English speaker because your reading of the word permission came across like coming from a different cultural context.

The west may be a minority internationally, but it's a majority on the board and the discussion of feminism in here is by default from that western perspective, so without your stating otherwise we assumed you were talking in that context too. Your perception that we are discussing something that doesn't happen is completely off base though, the idea of asking for permission is still very much alive amongst socially conservative groupings (which frequently overlap with certain kinds of Christianity), and the asking for blessing is a modified form of that to attempt to be less sexist and is very much widespread even not in the conservative groupings.

I'm a transsexual lesbian (I identify as a woman, not 3rd gender so I don't necessarily mesh with your expectations from Thailand), prior to my realisation and transition I was in a straight marriage and I personally did ask for the blessing of both parents AFTER proposing, and I'm far from conservative, it is something that happens. I was 27 and my fiancee was 22, living on her own and already had a kid so I certainly didn't view her as under her parents wing in any way.

To answer your question on queer, yes I'm a lesbian but I tend to identify as queer as there is a miniscule possibility that I could be attracted to a guy despite him being a guy (where I am attracted to women in part because they are women), queer is a reclaimed slur for non straight people so I use it as shorthand for "I'm not straight" basically.

[Daughter of Hell]

lol are you seriously lecturing us all on the practices of the culture we live in because it doesn't align to what you would expect?

What are you even talking about? I am still not even convinced this is a common Western practice, I think you're making it up so you can attack it. Your friend is mentioning "Christianity" and so on as a traditional basis, again this implies virgins which is not the case in your 30's in most situations. And are you making this on your own behalf, or a hypothetical behalf of someone you do not speak for? Because none of you strike me as coming from Christian families, or if you do then you still are not Christian yourself and don't follow the traditions here.

I was actually wondering if you were a non English speaker because your reading of the word permission came across like coming from a different cultural context.

I am a Westerner, actually. I just live in Thailand. But my family is of New Zealand originally and I am white, raised speaking English.

The west may be a minority internationally, but it's a majority on the board and the discussion of feminism in here is by default from that western perspective, so without your stating otherwise we assumed you were talking in that context too. Your perception that we are discussing something that doesn't happen is completely off base though, the idea of asking for permission is still very much alive amongst socially conservative groupings (which frequently overlap with certain kinds of Christianity), and the asking for blessing is a modified form of that to attempt to be less sexist and is very much widespread even not in the conservative groupings.

But you really think that someone ask the father of a 30 year old woman for permission to marry their daughter? Like, you're really claiming this, or are you crafting scare crows? I don't get it. I just can't see this scenario happening. Anywhere.

I was 27 and my fiancee was 22,

Your situation doesn't sound traditional, you do realize? But in any case, now you've lost me. Are you saying you did ask for a blessing and are now protesting against it? And a 22 year old bride is just on the borderline, she really isn't a girl anymore and most likely not living at home.

[brook]

Oh ffs

YES this tradition exists, you may have noticed I was NOT the one who brought it up in the first place, and many other people have discussed it as being something which happens. Frequently. Whether you wish to believe it or not.

One does not need to follow a 'traditional' lifestyle to know the traditions of their culture or even to follow many of them. And things do not have to be religious to be traditional.

Lastly she's my fiancée not my friend.

[emberling]

Your friend is mentioning "Christianity" and so on as a traditional basis, again this implies virgins

:lol:

look, Christian conservative values underly nearly the entirety of western cultural tradition. There is enormous diversity in which of those values have been maintained and which have been discarded. Most of us nonbelievers still follow a lot of the traditions, many of which have nothing to do with any sort of God. Generally older generations are more traditional. Generally big, life-altering things like marriage are more traditional than little things like individual bouts of sex (and for most of us, whatever gender, 'virgin' is considered negative, at least among one's own generation - there's little pressure to maintain virginity outside the most conservative communities). Generally, tradition is considered more polite or respectful - also, romantic - even if nobody particularly hews to the tradition. Marriage is also massively intertwined with religion, and most secular people still get married through churches, following the older traditions. All this varies massively depending on region, race, social class, what religious tradition your family comes from, how close your family ties are, and so on. A lot of my cousins have had very traditional ceremonies in large part, I believe, due to the influence of our grandparents who are very traditional.

Western culture and Christianity aren't monolithic or simple. You can't take "conservative Christian" and extrapolate from that what kind of traditions they keep because there are thousands of wildly varied conservative Christian groups, as well as people who don't bother with religious worship but whose sense of ethics originally derived from such a group. The ideas based on the father 'owning' the bride have been a lot more sticky than many others, probably because they seem pretty harmless to the people who have cultural influence to change it (largely the fathers who benefit from it and the prospective husbands who see themselves as future fathers).

[karaddin]

Fucking hell can you follow an argument, I'm against asking for permission. Asking for blessing AFTER you are already engaged is a very different thing but by all means continue to ignore the the words mean different things.

Also continue to tell me I'm making up the culture I live in just to complain about it. I'd love to live in a society where this shit didn't exist as anything more than a straw man.

[Seli]

...

I don't know why you think parents knowing about their children's virginity is creepy, either. My father is very protective/supportive of my sexuality. It's an upbringing I for one have appreciated. After all, I have a lot of teenage friends with children and I see how it changes their lives (curtails is a better word, as the change is not for the better when this young). My father taught me to be responsible in all things in life, including my sexuality, only because he cares. So that's all I meant, maybe you just don't realize that some families are closer than others are and more open about things like this.

I hope you realize it is quite possible to explore ones sexuality without getting someone pregnant, even for heterosexually oriented individuals. The average age of a mother at the birth of their first child is late twenties to early thirties in much of the developed world*, and I would think the average age of first sex lies at least a decade earlier.

(* https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2256.html )

...

Your situation doesn't sound traditional, you do realize? But in any case, now you've lost me. Are you saying you did ask for a blessing and are now protesting against it? And a 22 year old bride is just on the borderline, she really isn't a girl anymore and most likely not living at home.

Apart from the presence of a child that was quite traditional. (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005061.html )

[The Iceman of the North]

But I never said implicitly that a father has the "right to know" if you're a virgin or not. I said, they really have a right to know that you're getting married, that's all, assuming these are typical circumstances. I mean, I am speaking entirely hypothetically here, because two girls can't get married anyway.

I now you live in rural Thailand, but the world is slightly larger. There are plenty of places that two girls can get married, even in backwards places like the US.

[Xray the Enforcer]

I think we are all being trolled.

[Lord Toblerone]

I dunno, I'm imagining her as a white girl from New Zealand growing up in Thailand, detached from both the culture that surrounds her and the culture her family comes from, somewhat.

A unique perspective.

[Kalbear]

Awesome, we're being trolled by RoH.

[TerraPrime]

While the implications are definitely different and permission is a weird and off-putting way to say it, I kinda feel like ultimately they work out to the same thing.

But that may be because I can't imagine that the parents saying "No" to you asking their permission to marry their daughter would ever actually matter. The only reaction to that I can picture is "Well fuck you, we're getting married anyway."

In many conservative Christian circles this is actually expected. See, for instsance, things like Purity Balls where the daughters pledge their virginity to their fathers until such time when their fathers relinquish the ownership of said virginity to their husbands. This shit happens, in the United States. In those contexts, "permission" is NOT the same as "blessing."

[deleted01]

In many conservative Christian circles this is actually expected. See, for instsance, things like Purity Balls where the daughters pledge their virginity to their fathers until such time when their fathers relinquish the ownership of said virginity to their husbands. This shit happens, in the United States. In those contexts, "permission" is NOT the same as "blessing."

What the. I don't even.

[TerraPrime]

I did not make this shit up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_ball