Shryke Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I'd agree with Scot's definition of consent as well. You can consent to engage in an activity,and still maintain equal agency. Both parties consent, after all. Regardless, I agree with reframing sex as something people of equal agency engage in as partners, not something done to one person by another. I agree, a person is the definitive source of truth on what they want. In a situation where sex occurred, and one person said "no, I didn't want to have sex," and the other person says "yes they did," I'll side with the person who said "no." However, situations can and do arise where the situation is murkier than "I said no, and they kept going," or "I clearly did not want to have sex, which I displayed through pretty recognizable non-verbal signs, and they kept going." In which case, I think there should be skepticism applied equally to both the accused and the accuser. Or rather, there should not be an automatic presumption of guilt based on someone saying "I was raped." The problem is that legally the accused (the person saying "They said yes") is presumed innocent. As such you have to prove that consent was not given. That said person was told "No" and that said person is now lying about that. And do so beyond a reasonable doubt. And that's a big hill to climb because we are talking about proving something for which there are frequently no other witnesses or evidence for the facts under dispute. And that is so even if we can fix alot of the issues with how people regard rape victims and such. It'll make it better all around but it can't overcome the fundamental problem that rape is mostly a crime where the only thing under dispute is the thing for which there is the least evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crom Dubh Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I agree with all those issues, hence my questions regarding karradin's stance. I perhaps phrased my own example incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 The problem is that legally the accused (the person saying "They said yes") is presumed innocent. As such you have to prove that consent was not given. That said person was told "No" and that said person is now lying about that. And do so beyond a reasonable doubt. And that's a big hill to climb because we are talking about proving something for which there are frequently no other witnesses or evidence for the facts under dispute. And that is so even if we can fix alot of the issues with how people regard rape victims and such. It'll make it better all around but it can't overcome the fundamental problem that rape is mostly a crime where the only thing under dispute is the thing for which there is the least evidence. We can't overhaul the way the criminal justice system without amending the Constitution, and I don't think we should. As brook and Karadin have said, though, we can change the way we think and the way we educate our kids about sex, rape, and consent (or choice, however you want to frame this). That will help immensely with a large part of the problem, being a lack of understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 It is interesting that rape is one of the few crimes that goes completely against the grain. Cause for basically anything else, the jury and such tend to assume you are guilty just for being charged. Whereas with rape it's the exact opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I'd just like to point out that my argument is not a legal one and that the only things I've said with respect to the law are in response to people trying to turn it into that.I'm in the feminism thread talking about an issue I think most feminists have missed identifying and a direction I think feminists need to move in. I do not want to specifically talk about rape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crom Dubh Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 It's a bit more nuanced than that. I've seen other criminal cases where innocence was assumed, and rape cases where guilt was assumed. I agree that rape cases seem more weighted toward the accused however, which I think is indicative of certain biases inherent to our culture: rape victims are presumed to be females with ulterior motives for their accusation, or at least so it often seems. That is the sort of behavior and discourse that should be altered by a reconceptualization of consent/choice. EDIT: Even if your argument is not a legal one, it had legal implications, and I thought that was relevant to its discussion. Seems a bit dishonest to make a claim, have someone point out another angle on that claim which is valid and worthy of discussion (and doesn't even really countervail your claim all that much), and then you say "well we shouldn't talk about that anymore because we are no longer discussing what I want to discuss." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I'd bet money that the cases where they are presumed guilty are black men on white women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crom Dubh Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I'd bet money that the cases where they are presumed guilty are black men on white women. Probably, yes. Anyone of lower social/economic status vs. someone of higher presumed status, often seems the person of lower status is less likely to be believed. Privilege, etc. EDIT: Depends on context to, and the person doing the assuming. I would be pretty likely to believe a rich man raped a maid, or a teacher raped her student, simply due to the power imbalance inherent in those relationships. And my own probable prejudice against those with even more privilege than myself :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Gotta bring the intersectionality into feminism ;)Got me some morphine and not so cranky now. Sorry Scot but that just really wasn't the discussion I was wanting to inspire, but rather a direction of feminism thing. Guess Maarsen is wrong and I'll need to wait till I'm a big wig in the feminist circles :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crom Dubh Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Fair enough :) What sort of steps do you think feminists should take to foster a reconceptualized view of sex that privileges both parties as equal agents in an activity of their choosing, rather than as beings consenting to having something done to them? As in, where might you seek to introduce that idea, and how might you propagate it? Internet forums are certainly a start at least! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Fair enough :) What sort of steps do you think feminists should take to foster a reconceptualized view of sex that privileges both parties as equal agents in an activity of their choosing, rather than as beings consenting to having something done to them? As in, where might you seek to introduce that idea, and how might you propagate it? Internet forums are certainly a start at least! I realize I work in one of the more progressive U.S. school districts, but when California passed the affirmative consent law, it came up immediately in our 12th grade teacher meetings as something to discuss with our students in homeroom. The health class the students take in 9th grade already goes through various issues of sex and consent, but a lot of high school students are not dating/having sex and are a lot more likely to do so in college, and the interpersonal dynamics are different when you're 18 and legally adult than they are when you're 14. I'm actually a fan of the current health curriculum. It's pretty comprehensive and inclusive and definitely not abstinence-only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Fair enough :) What sort of steps do you think feminists should take to foster a reconceptualized view of sex that privileges both parties as equal agents in an activity of their choosing, rather than as beings consenting to having something done to them? As in, where might you seek to introduce that idea, and how might you propagate it? Internet forums are certainly a start at least!I actually think it's an argument that needs to be had inside the feminist movement first, so yeah forum posts on this particular site aren't a bad launching point for me to start honing my viewpoints. Hence also my comment about needing far more practice with these sorts of arguments, and some qualifications to my name before I can so much. At the moment I'm just a random first year gender studies student whose claim to fame is being trans and doing the subject simultaneously with having my surgery (something my lecturers are aware of and have already cottoned on to be being pretty engaged). I'd continue to try make small gains of winning people to my view point, given I'm solidly in the pro sex work camp (which is not so popular here) I think there would be some openness changing views of sex in this matter in those circles, and I already have some connections there. Big things take a long time to change, but once this swam into my view I couldn't ignore it. I don't consent to be fucked by my partner, I choose to have sex with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Back to an earlier point I brought up - this was the study I was talking about. What's fascinating to me is that it doesn't dispute the notion that 1 in 5/6 women are sexually assaulted; it just indicates that who is sexually assaulting is, actually, quite the psychopath and serial rapists are much more of the common occurrence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Back to an earlier point I brought up - this was the study I was talking about. What's fascinating to me is that it doesn't dispute the notion that 1 in 5/6 women are sexually assaulted; it just indicates that who is sexually assaulting is, actually, quite the psychopath and serial rapists are much more of the common occurrence. I remember other studies saying similar things. That basically most rapes were committed by a small number of repeat offenders who are aided/abetted/camouflaged within a larger problematic culture. You basically have a large group of men with crappy attitudes towards women who are mostly unknowingly acting to aid sexual predators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 @Karradin - what sort of concept are you proposing instead of consent? I understand (and agree with) your point that consent implies something being done to someone, rather than doing something with someone. But one person's consent is just half of the matter - the other partner consents as well. And I would say that those two halves already combine to create that concept of doing something with someone. Does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deleted01 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Isn't Karaddin talking about sex in general though? I choose to have sex with my partner, I choose to actively engage in an activity I enjoy. I don't just consent to him having his way, while I lie back and think of England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Yes choice, not consent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Isn't Karaddin talking about sex in general though? I choose to have sex with my partner, I choose to actively engage in an activity I enjoy. I don't just consent to him having his way, while I lie back and think of England. Yes, she was. I was just pointing out that one person's consent is just one half of a whole. A sex act has two givings of consent (or more), one from each person involved and they combine into that active engagement. ETA: To clarify - sex should be about doing something with someone. That is where we are in agreement. I just don't think that that is incongruous with the current concepts we are using. when someone consents to sex, it is an agreement to have something done to them, but at the same time their partner is also consenting to have something done to them. Those two "to's" make a "with" so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Yes, she was. I was just pointing out that one person's consent is just one half of a whole. A sex act has two givings of consent (or more), one from each person involved and they combine into that active engagement. ETA: To clarify - sex should be about doing something with someone. That is where we are in agreement. I just don't think that that is incongruous with the current concepts we are using. when someone consents to sex, it is an agreement to have something done to them, but at the same time their partner is also consenting to have something done to them. Those two "to's" make a "with" so to speak. Consent is also a more useful concept when talking about the opposite of it (ie - a lack of consent) Because rape is very much having something done to you. Without your consent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Consent is also a more useful concept when talking about the opposite of it (ie - a lack of consent) Because rape is very much having something done to you. Without your consent. At this point we were just talking about consensual sex. But I take your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.