The 'UnJon' assumption

[DarkRose_9]

I agree - Dany fitting the prophecy well shouldn't be discounted. She doesn't fit it perfectly, of course. I don't think that drogon is light bringer for example.

But I don't think aa and twtwp are two different "people" or prophecies. It's seems there's a lot of overlap. Probably both Jon and Daenerys will fulfill different parts of the prophecy - maybe both will fulfill all the parts. Dany is clearly one of the heads of the dragon, IMO. Does that mean she is tptwp and aa, or that she is aa and one of the heads? I'm not sure we will ever know for sure.

I don't see GRRM putting all of these elements together and just ignoring them. Why the dream of jon with the flaming sword? Why melisandre looking for AA but seeing only snow? Why man then wolf then man again? There must be something there.

Well maybe Jon borrows Stannis' sword and stabs Mel with it.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

The parallels are there but their stories are certainly individual. For example let's say Jon isn't dead, him going to a coma or a fevered dream wouldn't be unrealistic at all. When the body is recovering it needs rest. The circumstances leading up to the coma/fevered dream are quite different than those of either Bran or Dany yet the outcome of awakening the magical awareness would be the same.

Word of advice, you should get away from the prevalence of some on this board to be repelled by the obvious, there are many things in ASOIAF that are obvious. GRRM has already set the precedent of having a near death experience awakening the magic in different characters. We saw this with Jojen as well. Wherever Jon's story goes it will be particular to him but GRRM has already shown us wht can happen. That's why we get the VSK prologue and why we get the Mel POV. Whatever it is, it won't come out of left field there are clues that will lead to the outcome, you just have to open yourself to the possibilities.

I'm open to the idea, but my gut feeling is that it is different this time. The descriptive words used for the attack make me believe that his physical injuries are not as severe as I first thought. And I came to this conclusion after my second complete read and I read this chapter a few times.

Yes some of the descriptive words used for his wounds (smoking instead of steaming) point in the AA prophecy direction.

I'm not saying any of this is wrong but based on all the small clues that I, apparently, interpret differently than the majority here, point to him being wounded, not killed...and not mortally wounded either.

If it is going to be similar to anything, I think it will be similar to when the Hound took Arya in the back of the head with the ax but with the warging into Ghost aspect...where Ghost was released by Melisandre moments before (speculation).

[MoIaF]

I'm open to the idea, but my gut feeling is that it is different this time. The descriptive words used for the attack make me believe that his physical injuries are not as severe as I first thought. And I came to this conclusion after my second complete read and I read this chapter a few times.

Yes some of the descriptive words used for his wounds (smoking instead of steaming) point in the AA prophecy direction.

I'm not saying any of this is wrong but based on all the small clues that I, apparently, interpret differently than the majority here, point to him being wounded, not killed...and not mortally wounded either.

If it is going to be similar to anything, I think it will be similar to when the Hound took Arya in the back of the head with the ax but with the warging into Ghost aspect...where Ghost was released by Melisandre moments before (speculation).

Okay - you think Jon's attack has something to do with the AAR prophecy, correct?

Then I ask you what will Jon sacrifice? That is, in order for Bran to become a greenseer he gave up his ability to walk and in order for Dany to get her dragons she gave up her husband and child. Now, both these sacrifices were completely unwilling and unconscious.

So, you think Jon is gaining some abilities after this? What is he going to give up for those abilities? Because in Martin's world you don't get anything for free, everything has a price especially magic. And keep in mind that these sacrifices are of a personal nature.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

The parallels are there but their stories are certainly individual. For example let's say Jon isn't dead, him going to a coma or a fevered dream wouldn't be unrealistic at all. When the body is recovering it needs rest. The circumstances leading up to the coma/fevered dream are quite different than those of either Bran or Dany yet the outcome of awakening the magical awareness would be the same.

Word of advice, you should get away from the prevalence of some on this board to be repelled by the obvious, there are many things in ASOIAF that are obvious. GRRM has already set the precedent of having a near death experience awakening the magic in different characters. We saw this with Jojen as well. Wherever Jon's story goes it will be particular to him but GRRM has already shown us wht can happen. That's why we get the VSK prologue and why we get the Mel POV. Whatever it is, it won't come out of left field there are clues that will lead to the outcome, you just have to open yourself to the possibilities.

In addition, I'm not saying that the events you predict to happen could never happen...I acknowledge there is precedence set in this series for just such an event. It is entirely possible for it to happen just as y'all describe. That is not my argument.

But what I theorized is also in the realm of possibility, IMO. I'm not suggesting that Jon dies, then as they burn his body, he transforms into the literal Ice Dragon. Nothing crazy such as that.

I offer you the same advice you offered me, but in reverse. Just because something is obvious, doesn't mean it will be that way. Call me the devil's advocate, or whatever.

I think the post from sj4iy should not be overlooked.

I haven't 'conflated' anything. I read the passage several times and realized that it didn't say exactly what I thought it said the first time I read it.

And I don't think he was 'killed' because he doesn't actually die. Hard to be 'killed' before you have died. Martin could come back in TWOW and the very first sentence could be "And Jon Snow died", and I would be like "Okay." But he DIDN'T die by the end of his last chapter in ADWD.

It may be a bit pedantic, but for good reason:

She saw the longaxe too, still wet with blood and brains. And Arya ran. Not for her brother now, not even for her mother, but for herself. She ran faster than she had ever run before, her head down and her feet churning up the river, she ran from him as Mycah must have run.

His axe took her in the back of the head."

But it didn't STAB her. It didn't CUT her. It simply "hit" her on the back of the head.

The third knife 'took' Jon Snow in the back. That would be a mortal injury, no doubt. But I don't believe it until we see proof that he was actually stabbed and not simply hit, grazed or some other variation of 'took'.

A man can survive a stab wound to the stomach if the situation is right.

The graze on his neck was negligible, as evidenced by the use of the word "graze".

The fourth knife has absolutely no context. It could be a fatal wound. It could be that he didn't feel it because it never actually stabbed him.

I haven't made up my mind about anything at all, though. You have. You think he's dead. I think he's either injured, seriously injured, or mortally injured. I don't think he's dead because he hasn't died yet, but he could very well die the next time we see him. I simply don't see how anyone could look at what Martin has written before, look at what he wrote this time and say "Oh, well, Jon's dead". It makes no sense, given the small amount of information we actually have.

As I said before...we all read the same words but so many of us interpret them differently.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Okay - you think Jon's attack has something to do with the AAR prophecy, correct?

Then I ask you what will Jon sacrifice? That is, in order for Bran to become a greenseer he gave up his ability to walk and in order for Dany to get her dragons she gave up her husband and child. Now, both these sacrifices were completely unwilling and unconscious.

So, you think Jon is gaining some abilities after this? What is he going to give up for those abilities? Because in Martin's world you don't get anything for free, everything has a price especially magic. And keep in mind that these sacrifices are of a personal nature.

Originally, I thought Jon had something to do with AA...and might still. But the more I think about it...I tend to lean towards that he is TPtwP (if this is actually different from AA).

I already think Jon is TPtwP...if R+L-J & they were married (polygamy is marriage but raises another series of questions) then Jon is already a promised prince. IIRC, there is no need for a rebirth of such for TPtwP.

Daenerys had the fire at the end of AGoT which matches the AA prophecy perfectly. Too perfectly if I was a suspicious type but since Aemon said they were looking for the Prince that was Promised, not Princess (which is supposed to make us believe she is TPtwP) actually makes me believe she is not TPtwP but rather she fulfills the AA role.

Jon already shows signs of warging into Ghost..this attack on him may be that final step needed in order to push him completely over the figurative edge so he can slip into Ghost whenever. Other than that...I'm not sure what other powers Jon will ever get...I don't recall reading that AA or TPtwP had special powers other than saving the realm from the night that never ends. I tend to lean towards he can do that with his mind and leadership...why does he have to be dead or un-dead or resurrected for this to happen?

Again...not saying it won't happen for Jon...he may be dead for 3 days down in the ice cells and Melisandre brings him back...that could totally happen...I never said it couldn't. I am just having a hard time being convinced to completely buy into that thought.

[MoIaF]

Originally, I thought Jon had something to do with AA...and might still. But the more I think about it...I tend to lean towards that he is TPtwP (if this is actually different from AA).

Jon already shows signs of warging into Ghost..this attack on him may be that final step needed in order to push him completely over the figurative edge so he can slip into Ghost whenever. Other than that...I'm not sure what other powers Jon will ever get...I don't recall reading that AA or TPtwP had special powers other than saving the realm from the night that never ends. I tend to lean towards he can do that with his mind and leadership...why does he have to be dead or un-dead or resurrected for this to happen?

Again...not saying it won't happen for Jon...he may be dead for 3 days down in the ice cells and Melisandre brings him back...that could totally happen...I never said it couldn't. I am just having a hard time being convinced to completely buy into that thought.

Just to be clear, I don't think the obvious outcome is that Jon's dead I think by how contentious this issue is that outcomes is not obvious at all. In fact, those of us who believe he is dead are firmly in the minority. What I believe is obvious is that this is part of Jon's magically awakening and we get confirmation of that by what appears to be Jon warging into Ghost.

Of course I do not discount the possibility that Jon might be badly injured, I do, however, discount the possibility that he is merely injured.

The passage reads:

"Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it."

The dagger was buried in Jon's belly, that's not a description of a superficial wound. Even if Jon had been wearing chain mail Bowen stabbed Jon with enough force for the dagger to bury itself in Jon's belly, that means that once the chain mail was pierce the dagger kept on going. And of course the idea of Jon wearing chain mail is purely speculative. So, ever if Jon isn't dead he's severely injured.

But we are buddies and it's okay to agree to disagree. :cheers:

Like most other questions we have we'll have to wait for the next book for an answer. :D

[Faint]

Arguments that are couched in a series of unlikely positive assumptions are not particularly convincing.

Also, the logistics of Martin making Melisandre a point-of-view character and keeping her near Jon are being too easily ignored by a lot of these proposed theories. The issue needs to at least be addressed.

In that vein, contrary to the conventional view of some, I do not find Martin to be a wasteful writer. Which means I do no think the series of interactions between Melisandre and Jon (and Ghost) lead nowhere. Far too much groundwork has been laid there.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Just to be clear, I don't think the obvious outcome is that Jon's dead I think by how contentious this issue is that outcomes is not obvious at all. In fact, those of us who believe he is dead are firmly in the minority. What I believe is obvious is that this is part of Jon's magically awakening and we get confirmation of that by what appears to be Jon warging into Ghost.

Of course I do not discount the possibility that Jon might be badly injured, I do, however, discount the possibility that he is merely injured.

The passage reads:

"Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it."

The dagger was buried in Jon's belly, that's not a description of a superficial wound. Even if Jon had been wearing chain mail Bowen stabbed Jon with enough force for the dagger to bury itself in Jon's belly, that means that once the chain mail was pierce the dagger kept on going. And of course the idea of Jon wearing chain mail is purely speculative. So, ever if Jon isn't dead he's severely injured.

But we are buddies and it's okay to agree to disagree. :cheers:

Like most other questions we have we'll have to wait for the next book for an answer. :D

Based on all the back & forth :fencing: between us...I don't actually think we disagree on the direction the character is going, which I think is what it all boils down to...we just interpret the road taken differently...which is what GRRM (and I suppose all writers) want.

Plus, at least all of our back & forth are based on text and our interpretations of the text and we're not inventing or grasping too far to make our arguments work. For that I am always thankful!

And on that note...it is 5pm...time to wrap up at work and head home.

And buddies to the end!! :grouphug: :cheers:

[Faint]

In fact, those of us who believe he is dead are firmly in the minority.

Depending on the definition of "dead," I hope not.

[MoIaF]

Depending on the definition of "dead," I hope not.

You know what I mean, dead but coming back. With avenges most likely. ;)

[DarkRose_9]

It would be cool if Jon came back (if he is dead) like Coldhands. Being part of the NW might solve the problem of being unable to cross the wall.

[Mithras]

I think Jon will fall into a coma like Bran and Ghost will be sacrificed to return his soul to his body.

In the comatose state, Jon will see that dream he keeps dreaming in the crypts but not able to finish it due to terror. This time, Jon will not be able to wake and and finish the dream. He will see Ned's spirit in the crypts (because he promised him to talk about his mother next time they meet and probably Lyanna too).

Bran is king's blood. He is blood of two kings. Two kings to wake the dragon. First father (Ned's spirit) then the son (Bran). Kings' blood will wake the dragon from stone. Jon is the stone dragon. Waking the dragon from stone is the revelation of Jon's true identity.

[TheLordProtector]

Can't for the life of me see Ghost being sacrificed. In fact, I think if Jon is to make it to the end of the story then he will need Ghost alive.

Having said that Sansa is still alive (damn it!) and she's not had a wolf for a couple years now.

[bemused]

The idea that Martin made the scene purposely ambiguous does not hold up to me. Jon is being stabbed, losing blood and falling into unconsciousness. It makes perfect sense that anything and everything about the scene reads confused and foggy given that we are witness to it from his point-of-view. Jon himself only registers that he is being attacked when it is far too late to do anything about it, when his reflexes have long since dulled. 

 

I mean, to clarify again, he is slashed across the throat, stabbed to the hilt in his stomach, stabbed in the middle of back and then stabbed once more following that. I see nothing ambiguous about the scene in so far as the wounds Jon suffered before he fled his body. 

 

And, as I am sure has been pointed out ad nauseam, the Varamyr prologue is there for a reason. 

 

There are many, many ambiguities that can be discerned in the way the language is used in that chapter, and in many other places in GRRM's work ... and since they are there, they are intentional.

 

It certainly makes sense that the scene of the attempted assassination reads as confused and I'd say, not foggy, but scattered, since it's happening in the midst of the crisis with Wun Wun. But to say that Jon is losing blood in a way that implies he's losing a lot of blood, is not borne out by the description of the wounds in the text. He has a graze to the neck, from which blood is "welling" between his fingers. This does not describe the sudden massive loss of blood that would be associated with a serious neck wound. We do not see how much of Bowen's dagger is coated in blood (information GRRM frequently gives us elsewhere ) and we don't know why Jon thinks "stick them with the pointy end" immediately after wrenching the dagger free..it could imply many things, and possibly more than one simultaneously.

 

I assume Jon is wearing mail, but even a person who doesn't accept that likelihood, should agree that he probably has several layers of clothing on. Everyone (except Mel) bundles up at the Wall.

 

GRRM spreads pertinent information in many places, and he gives us some good general guidelines in The King's Prize.. 

Before them marched the clansmen from the hills; chiefs and champions astride shaggy garrons, their hirsute fighters trotting beside them, clad in furs and boiled leather and old mail.

 

.. and in the description of Alysanne..

 

Even in sleep she wore ringmail under her furs, boiled leather under that, and an old sheepskin under the leather, turned inside out for warmth.

 

OK - these people are on campaign , but though Castle Black is not, the NW still has to be in a state of semi-readiness, and given that "it's always cold at the Wall" (and they have been having snow as well), I think we're safe to assume that they are at least as prepared for the weather as Alysanne and the clansmen.

 

In my estimation , to say ... Jon himself only registers that he is being attacked when it is far too late to do anything about it, when his reflexes have long since dulled. ..is really an unfair and misleading overstatement. ... Given that the whole "assassination" scene cannot last more than half a minute (at a generous estimate) and possibly consideraby less, there can be no such thing as "far too late" or "his reflexes have long since dulled" Jon is aware of the attack as soon as it's happening and his reflexes have not dulled, since we see him disarm Wick.

 

It's quite possible that Longclaw was tampered with in some way ..Mully was definitely up to something in Jon's quarters to cause Ghost's reaction to him (or perhaps he just smelled of Thorne ;)). ... But another possibility has also occured to me fairly recently - How could Jon know the blood was welling between his fingers if he was wearing gloves? This would be quite ironic.. after Jon's concern for and warnings to other characters about their hands freezing (Stannis' guards, Mel) and his warning to Sam to wear thicker gloves .. there is a possibility that he isn't wearing any himself, when he usually does. He wouldn't have forgotten to flex his swordhand - we're told in ASoS that he does that habitually now...without thinking about it.  So, his fingers would not have grown stiff and clumsy from his scars, but they very possibly might, from the cold.

 

When you say.." slashed across the throat, stabbed to the hilt in his stomach, stabbed in the middle of back and then stabbed once more following that... he fled his body. "

 

None of these things are fact, and shouldn't be stated as such, in my opinion. They are merely one person's interpretation.

 

Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, ... ... Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. ... this gives a different picture than slashed across the throat. I think we all should be able to understand the severity (or lack of same) of "barely grazed his skin" 

 

Bowen Marsh stood there before him, ... ...He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it. ... ... He (Jon)found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. 

 

 

This does not say stabbed to the hilt in the stomach . It doesn't say how deeply the dagger was buried..(It's obvious Jon would have been wearing some layers of clothing).. It doesn't say where Jon found the hilt..It certainly wasn't touching skin, so ..2 inches from the skin? four?..We really have no idea. How long was the dagger.. 6, 7, 10 inch blade ? We simply don't know..  Would stewards normally  wear something as large as a knight's dagger, or hunting dagger ? Or something a bit shorter and more utilitarian for their normal tasks? We don't know... But, Jon thought it was a punch.. then realised it was a stab... I think anyone might realise that 10 inches of steel entering their body was more than a punch..(I would guess a shorter length based on that description)

 

Next, he thinks he was stabbed between the shoulder blades..but he can't see it and he's just made it plain that a stab feels like a punch  ..and so would an elbow or an actual punch ... there is definitely room for doubt about that one.

 

We absolutely do not know that he was stabbed once more after that, or if he lost consciousness, or that he fled his body.. We only know that the narration ends in mid-action and mid-thought.. We don't know why.

 

The Varamyr prologue is there for a number of reasons and the details about the second life shed light on Bran's experiences as well .. For Jon .. I imagine they will apply if he should die before Ghost , but they may be a red herring when it comes to the assassination attempt. All the other possibilities that I and many others have raised, are equally based on the text and if an author is going to use a red herring, it will be the thing that is obvious - not the thing or accumulation of things that only occur to the reader on the second, third or fourth read, say .. a hint that was given two books ago, or in a parallel with another character or in the Dunk&Egg stories.

 

 

Well, now that is quite the series of assumptions. I would not even pretend to know the course of his story in the next book. I might take a stab at speculating how he will be revived, which I have done many times before, but anything more than that is beyond me. 

 

All I know is what we have been given: the Varamyr chapter, the Melisandre's chapter, Melisandre's visions, Melisandre's affinity with Ghost, Melisandre asking about Ghost before Jon was stabbed and Melisandre disappearing halfway through Jon's last chapter. 

 

That is what I am working off of; that and only that. I have no idea how long Jon will be in limbo, what he will be doing while he is in Ghost and what he will do afterwards. 

 

We have been given so much more than the examples you list.. The accuracy of Mel's interpretations of her visions is really questionable and I would particularly disagree that there is any shred affinity between Ghost and Mel (there was some very obvious weird manipulation going on there).. 

 

And that last sentence contains a pretty big assumption as well. We can speculate (if we like) that Jon has fled his body and therefore may be in some kind of limbo.. Maybe...but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Lady Winter Rose]

 

It's her complete unwillingness to listen to reason that makes me thing she's lost all reason herself. I get that she has a right to be pissed at the Freys et all, but Brienne swore her an oath and has given her no reason to suspect she broke it. Except for the falling in love with Jaime, a living Cat would have looked on Brienne with pity, like when she realised Brienne loved Renly.

 

It just strikes me that she has tunnel vision now for revenge, and that's not quite Catelyns make-up.

 

Maybe because Roose send Jaime's regards.

[nyser1]

Jon's story is just beginning. 

 

 

His watch has ended....end chapter of fake bastard gone sentry?

 

 

Now the chapter of the prince that was promised?  :P

[Gendrys Forge]

I haven't seen one person in this thread mention when six skins died for real it was said that "true death came as a shock of cold", or something close to that...  Wasn't the last line of Jon's chapter "He never felt the fourth knife, only the cold."?  He died right there.  I have no doubt he will be back, and I won't even get into the how but it's clear to me that this was no fake death or wounding incident, the guy DIED.

[kearnsc6]

I dont think Jon will come back by the power of Mel or the Lord of light and I dont think he'll come back whole either.

I think he's going to come as the same sort of being that Coldhands is.

In my opinion , Coldhands is a dead body that has been re-animated ,by either Bloodraven or Coldhands himself, warging back into it after death (maybe a similar sort of power to the Others').

So I think that when Jon was stabbed to death his body died and he warged into Ghost and then wargs back into himself to re-animate his corpse.

 

I know this theory has problems. For example Varamyr couldnt warg back into himself after human death so why could Jon ?

Maybe ,to turn out like Coldhands , an Other has to re-animate you first and then you can warg in and battle for possesion against Other(like varamyr does to that woman ).

So Jon gets re-animated by an Other , he wargs in and battles for possession , He wins and becomes 'ColdJon'.