The 'UnJon' assumption

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Well, now that is quite the series of assumptions. I would not even pretend to know the course of his story in the next book. I might take a stab at speculating how he will be revived, which I have done many times before, but anything more than that is beyond me.

All I know is what we have been given: the Varamyr chapter, the Melisandre's chapter, Melisandre's visions, Melisandre's affinity with Ghost, Melisandre asking about Ghost before Jon was stabbed and Melisandre disappearing halfway through Jon's last chapter.

That is what I am working off of; that and only that. I have no idea how long Jon will be in limbo, what he will be doing while he is in Ghost and what he will do afterwards.

Until it is written by GRRM himself, everything is an assumption or educated guess...which is why I love the series. We all read the same text but due to our different perspectives, we can come up with different theories and assumptions.

Makes me think of the saying...

The optimist says the glass is half full, the pessimist says it is half empty but the engineer says the glass is just twice as big as it needs to be.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I agree - Dany fitting the prophecy well shouldn't be discounted. She doesn't fit it perfectly, of course. I don't think that drogon is light bringer for example.

But I don't think aa and twtwp are two different "people" or prophecies. It's seems there's a lot of overlap. Probably both Jon and Daenerys will fulfill different parts of the prophecy - maybe both will fulfill all the parts. Dany is clearly one of the heads of the dragon, IMO. Does that mean she is tptwp and aa, or that she is aa and one of the heads? I'm not sure we will ever know for sure.

I don't see GRRM putting all of these elements together and just ignoring them. Why the dream of jon with the flaming sword? Why melisandre looking for AA but seeing only snow? Why man then wolf then man again? There must be something there.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

Even if Jon was killed from all those stab wounds ( far from a certainty if none of his vital organs were stabbed) than isn't it sort of a given that Mel would resurrect him like Thoros?

Its hard to know Mel's motives and intentions, but she seems to honestly like and admire Jon Snow, and probably thinks the Lord of Light has use for him. Funny enough she likes Ghost as well. I never would have thought of her as an animal person.

[Greymoon]

The idea that Martin made the scene purposely ambiguous does not hold up to me. Jon is being stabbed, losing blood and falling into unconsciousness. It makes perfect sense that anything and everything about the scene reads confused and foggy given that we are witness to it from his point-of-view. Jon himself only registers that he is being attacked when it is far too late to do anything about it, when his reflexes have long since dulled.

I mean, to clarify again, he is slashed across the throat, stabbed to the hilt in his stomach, stabbed in the middle of back and then stabbed once more following that. I see nothing ambiguous about the scene in so far as the wounds Jon suffered before he fled his body.

And, as I am sure has been pointed out ad nauseam, the Varamyr prologue is there for a reason.

Jon doesn't get stabbed in the stomach, or at least, we do not know that. Jon gets 'punched in the belly'. There's more than the stomach in the belly, and we don't know the trajectory of the blade, or the length of it; we don't know if he got stabbed in the higher or lower parts of his abdomen, nor do we know how many layers of clothing Jon was wearing, or how resilient that clothing is. We know he wore at least boiled leather, and fur. Probably some thick wool, too. Maybe ringmail. Though that's speculation only.

The Varamyr prologue is there to show us what happens when a skinchanger looses touch with a physical body, that's true. It shows us the dangers of trying to posses another conscious being as well. It shows us what could happen if Jon was to die, but at the same time, it might also tell us something about Bran, and what Bran could do..... one could argue that Bran's near-death experience, Bran's whole arc, has been preparing the field for Jon.

Few are denying that Jon fled his body and warged Ghost, in any case. It just that while some of us believe this means Jon's body will die and he will need to be resurrected by 'fire magic', others, believe that this only means that Jon's physical body will be in a coma until it heals through natural means/low key ice magic (via Bloodraven/Bran).

I don't understand how Varamyr's prologue and Mel's abilities can even be linked in a coherent manner.... Varamyr, blood of the First Men, a free man, a skinchanger, a likely follower of the Old Gods, incarnates the complete opposite of Mel. Bran and Varamyr on the other hand belong to the same powers. They are the same, besides that Bran is still innocent and sweet, and much more powerful. Jon, too.

I also don't see why Mel would care that Jon lives or dies. She warned him, he didn't listen. She did her job, he ignored her. She tried, and tried, and tried to win him over. He was been nothing but suspicious and stubborn. If Mel doesn't see it in her flames, then she won't try to resurrect him. When she doesn't serve R'hllor, she serves her own interests. And Jon has not been cooperating at all, how would resurrecting him serve Mel?

Bran has all the motivation he needs to intervene. And Bloodraven has actually done it before -- in spite of what he claims. He did it for Bran, and likely did it for Jojen Reed too.

[C.T. Phipps]

Even if Jon was killed from all those stab wounds ( far from a certainty if none of his vital organs were stabbed) than isn't it sort of a given that Mel would resurrect him like Thoros?

Its hard to know Mel's motives and intentions, but she seems to honestly like and admire Jon Snow, and probably thinks the Lord of Light has use for him. Funny enough she likes Ghost as well. I never would have thought of her as an animal person.

I think everything we've learned of Mel points to her as a decent person going about saving the world in a profoundly stupid way with cruel and stupid means.

[sj4iy]

I believe you are unreasonably conflating the fact that Martin is necessarily writing cryptically as relating to how Jon will be surviving his current predicament -- albeit, while flashing a big neon sign ("Ghost," he whispered.) -- with him making clear that Jon received several stabbings that, by themselves, would be enough to kill him, with the implication that there might well have been more.

In any case, you do not seem persuadable on this point. You think Martin made it ambiguous that Jon was "killed" and find it unlikely that he was. I got that. Well, I do not.

As far as Jon is concerned, I believe he is right now stuck in Ghost -- yes, the name was not a coincidence. Will he get to go back in his body after someone (Melisandre?) works wonders on it? Probably. Will he be the same? Not likely.

I haven't 'conflated' anything. I read the passage several times and realized that it didn't say exactly what I thought it said the first time I read it.

And I don't think he was 'killed' because he doesn't actually die. Hard to be 'killed' before you have died. Martin could come back in TWOW and the very first sentence could be "And Jon Snow died", and I would be like "Okay." But he DIDN'T die by the end of his last chapter in ADWD.

It may be a bit pedantic, but for good reason:

She saw the longaxe too, still wet with blood and brains. And Arya ran. Not for her brother now, not even for her mother, but for herself. She ran faster than she had ever run before, her head down and her feet churning up the river, she ran from him as Mycah must have run.

His axe took her in the back of the head."

But it didn't STAB her. It didn't CUT her. It simply "hit" her on the back of the head.

The third knife 'took' Jon Snow in the back. That would be a mortal injury, no doubt. But I don't believe it until we see proof that he was actually stabbed and not simply hit, grazed or some other variation of 'took'.

A man can survive a stab wound to the stomach if the situation is right.

The graze on his neck was negligible, as evidenced by the use of the word "graze".

The fourth knife has absolutely no context. It could be a fatal wound. It could be that he didn't feel it because it never actually stabbed him.

I haven't made up my mind about anything at all, though. You have. You think he's dead. I think he's either injured, seriously injured, or mortally injured. I don't think he's dead because he hasn't died yet, but he could very well die the next time we see him. I simply don't see how anyone could look at what Martin has written before, look at what he wrote this time and say "Oh, well, Jon's dead". It makes no sense, given the small amount of information we actually have.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

<snip>

:cheers:

[sj4iy]

I also agree with Greymoon in that I see no pressing reason for Melisandre to attempt to resurrect Jon Snow. He's not her king to her knowledge...why would she care? We also don't know if she's even capable of doing so.

Of course, I think that if Jon were to somehow come back to life from death, it would be through a one-time, unexplainable magic of his own making (like Dany hatching the dragons in the pyre). If Melisandre has to 'bring him back', I would see no reason that anyone would think of Jon as anything but her puppet. So no, I don't think she will be the one to bring him back if he dies. He will do that himself or perhaps there will be other magic at play.

I don't think "UnJon" is really an option, though. Either he comes back as himself, he never dies at all or he just outright dies.

[WTF's a Lommy]

I really hope he survived the attack or is just dead. Not a fan of the whole "UnJon" or "Jon warged into Ghost" theories.

[Mikkel]

I really hope he survived the attack or is just dead. Not a fan of the whole "UnJon" or "Jon warged into Ghost" theories.

The former is possible, the latter... seems doubtful.

[MoIaF]

I am of the same mind as you about this as well but many disagree. I also believe Jon is more likely to be brought back in something approximating the same form as Melisandre rather than Catelyn but we seem to be in something of a minority.

Well, I think it's why we were introduced to Mel's POV. Whatever one thinks of her methods she's a true believer and relatively sane. Jon being brought back to resemble this form would still allow him to continue on his mission, it would actually make him much more suited for it as he will neither need to sleep or eat.

From what I gather, much of the disagreement on this whole issue stems from readers partial to Jon not wanting him to face any long term consequences from the assassination. They want Jon brought back whole and perfectly sound, with only scars to tell he ever faced death.

After something this traumatic, Jon will never be the same be he dead or severely injured. The repercussions of spending an extended period of time in Ghost will also be felt. He'll be himself of course but there will be more of the beast in him than before. That should also help when the battles begin, he will need some of the ferocity of the wolf.

I myself do not believe he will be some walking zombie but I find the fantasy that he will be Jon Snow as he was before his skirt with death just as unlikely. Martin purposely writes against such scenarios and enjoys tearing such tropes to pieces, yet here I read many a reader actually proposing that Martin will be turning into David Eddings.

I'm with you on this, he's not going to be some kind of zombie, that wouldn't make any sense. Whatever his purpose might be, he needs to be of a somewhat sound mind and he needs to be physically capable so that he can fight. Also, nobody is going to follow a zombie but they'll follow a warrior; Mel, Beric and Cat all have their followers so people are not above following an undead.

In Martin's world there are always consequences and most of the time the price is too high. Look at Dany and her dragons - it was an enormous price to pay for them.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

I guess I'm just not sold on the idea that one of the main characters being resurrected in some form or fashion.

I can buy into the idea that Jon is either slightly injured or very injured but never dies. He would wolf dreams and prophetic dreams similar to Bran while he is in a comatose state...then wakes up. But I see this too similar of Bran's story in AGoT.

Which is why I tend to lean towards my theory I posted earlier in this thread.

[MoIaF]

I guess I'm just not sold on the idea that one of the main characters being resurrected in some form or fashion.

I can buy into the idea that Jon is either slightly injured or very injured but never dies. He would wolf dreams and prophetic dreams similar to Bran while he is in a comatose state...then wakes up. But I see this too similar of Bran's story in AGoT.

Which is why I tend to lean towards my theory I posted earlier in this thread.

The idea that some of what occurs during the stabbing has similarities with the myth of AAR is a pretty prevalent theory around these parts.

As for the similarities between Bran and Jon, it makes sense as it's part of a magical awakening. Bran and Dany share many similarities including Bran's coma dream and Dany's fevered dream. You can read more about it here.

Martin works with parallels throughout the series especially concerning certain subjects. You shouldn't be surprised when certain story lines or parts of arcs resemble each other. Dany and Jon are pretty much paralleling each others arcs since AGOT. It becomes very obvious in ADWD. Have you ever read the Learning to Lead threads?

Going back to the magical awakening, Bran had to give up his ability to fly and Dany gave up her entire family, if Jon is to have a similar magical awakening there will definitely be something that he will have to give up. He's not going to be "gifted" with abilities if he hasn't given up anything for it. That's not how it works in Martin's world. Whatever it is, it'll be substantial.

[Mithras]

GRRM does this all the time. He knows he writes ambiguously and that fans will therefore be divided About what really happened. This would be equally true whether jon dies, dies and is revived, wargs into ghost before he dies then wargs back once revived (my view) or is just knocked over or something like you seem to think.

No, it would certainly not, unless you think George made it explicit enough in ADwD that he will resurrect Jon off-screen and Jon will be alive in his next POV.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

The idea that some of what occurs during the stabbing has similarities with the myth of AAR is a pretty prevalent theory around these parts.

As for the similarities between Bran and Jon, it makes sense as it's part of a magical awakening. Bran and Dany share many similarities including Bran's coma dream and Dany's fevered dream. You can read more about it here.

Martin works with parallels throughout the series especially concerning certain subjects. You shouldn't be surprised when certain story lines or parts of arcs resemble each other. Dany and Jon are pretty much paralleling each others arcs since AGOT. It becomes very obvious in ADWD. Have you ever read the Learning to Lead threads?

Going back to the magical awakening, Bran had to give up his ability to fly and Dany gave up her entire family, if Jon is to have a similar magical awakening there will definitely be something that he will have to give up. He's not going to be "gifted" with abilities if he hasn't given up anything for it. That's not how it works in Martin's world. Whatever it is, it'll be substantial.

I'll bookmark those threads to read.

I do see parallels in their stories but Daenerys' fever dream and Bran's como dream have enough differences in them to remain different.

I do have faith that GRRM will write a perfect Jon story; however for the sake of argument in these threads, I don't want to think Jon will have a similar experience to Bran or Daenerys in prophetic dreams. I know it would be different but it still seems too easy of an explanation because it is the obvious explanation...and GRRM tends to shy away from the obvious, at least I think he does.

I'm at work and have to type my responses fast so I don't think I'm expressing my view clear enough...writing as never been my strong suite...guess that is why I became an engineer. ha!

[Dagon]

I figured one of the main points of Lady Stoneheart is to freak us out at the possibility of Jon being resurrected as a monster. And I think that's going to be averted with the help of his skin-changing skills. I assume his consciousness will be preserved in his dire wolf, and as long as he's not in there for too long he should be OK. Maybe more bad ass, but in one piece.

[Mithras]

I figured one of the main points of Lady Stoneheart is to freak us out at the possibility of Jon being resurrected as a monster. And I think that's going to be averted with the help of his skin-changing skills. I assume his consciousness will be preserved in his dire wolf, and as long as he's not in there for too long he should be OK. Maybe more bad ass, but in one piece.

“I fear no ghosts. Dragons are more powerful than ghosts.”

A certain dragon will prove to be more powerful than a certain Ghost.

Mance should have let me take the direwolf [Ghost]. There would be a second life worthy of a king.

One of the mountains of clues depicting Jon as a king. This also confirmes that Jon will spend some time in Ghost.

[MoIaF]

I'll bookmark those threads to read.

I do see parallels in their stories but Daenerys' fever dream and Bran's como dream have enough differences in them to remain different.

I do have faith that GRRM will write a perfect Jon story; however for the sake of argument in these threads, I don't want to think Jon will have a similar experience to Bran or Daenerys in prophetic dreams. I know it would be different but it still seems too easy of an explanation because it is the obvious explanation...and GRRM tends to shy away from the obvious, at least I think he does.

I'm at work and have to type my responses fast so I don't think I'm expressing my view clear enough...writing as never been my strong suite...guess that is why I became an engineer. ha!

The parallels are there but their stories are certainly individual. For example let's say Jon isn't dead, him going to a coma or a fevered dream wouldn't be unrealistic at all. When the body is recovering it needs rest. The circumstances leading up to the coma/fevered dream are quite different than those of either Bran or Dany yet the outcome of awakening the magical awareness would be the same.

Word of advice, you should get away from the prevalence of some on this board to be repelled by the obvious, there are many things in ASOIAF that are obvious. GRRM has already set the precedent of having a near death experience awakening the magic in different characters. We saw this with Jojen as well. Wherever Jon's story goes it will be particular to him but GRRM has already shown us wht can happen. That's why we get the VSK prologue and why we get the Mel POV. Whatever it is, it won't come out of left field there are clues that will lead to the outcome, you just have to open yourself to the possibilities.

[BitsOfBrains]

I also agree with Greymoon in that I see no pressing reason for Melisandre to attempt to resurrect Jon Snow. He's not her king to her knowledge...why would she care? We also don't know if she's even capable of doing so.

YOU don't see any pressing reason, but I bet she has.

"She sees things in those fires".

Plus she has the hots for him.

Hopefully the LC doesn't die because if he does WoW is going to be, "The Search for Jon". but he is going to need some technicality to abscond from the NW and "dying" seems to be his best bet.

Do we know if the King left a maester at the wall to keep an eye on his wife and daughter?

Having a maester, several woods witches, and Melisandre seems like Jon would have a pretty good chance of making it.

Only thing is he got shanked in the guts. The Hound gave us pretty clean cut answer on what happens in ASoIaF when someone gets pricked in the guts, "thats the end of him" and thats pretty consistent with medical tech in an equivalent time period in the real world. The human guts are like a sewage plant. When they get punctured you pretty much inevitably go septic and thats it without antibiotics and surgery.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

No, it would certainly not, unless you think George made it explicit enough in ADwD that he will resurrect Jon off-screen and Jon will be alive in his next POV.

What? I'm not following you at all