The 'UnJon' assumption

[Ser Cold Fingers]

I think Jon will survive...or I guess I should say...I hope Jon will survive.

He needs to get to Winterfell and experience his dream he told Sam about.

[BulletTooth_Tony]

He touches his wounds and sees blood in his hand. He's bleeding, profusely.

"He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. “Why?”"

Thanks for the book quote, as all I have as a reference point right at this moment is Audible and I don't feel like downloading it. So let me amend this. His wounds are smoking. Almost as if they're cauterizing themselves -- the real-world scientific interpretation being, again thank you, that the heat from the wound is simply steaming in the cold. Where I'm driving here, is magical power is growing, Mel feels her powers growing as well. I'm expecting a magical way out for him -- and not in death and resurrection.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Thanks for the book quote, as all I have as a reference point right at this moment is Audible and I don't feel like downloading it. So let me amend this. His wounds are smoking. Almost as if they're cauterizing themselves -- the real-world scientific interpretation being, again thank you, that the heat from the wound is simply steaming in the cold. Where I'm driving here, is magical power is growing, Mel feels her powers growing as well. I'm expecting a magical way out for him -- and not in death and resurrection.

Isn't there also salt from someone's tears? AA is born of smoke & salt...the smoke from his wounds and the salt from the tears? I don't have my books either, but it seems that it went something close to that.

[BulletTooth_Tony]

Isn't there also salt from someone's tears? AA is born of smoke & salt...the smoke from his wounds and the salt from the tears? I don't have my books either, but it seems that it went something close to that.

Yes. Bowen Marsh is crying while he participates. But to the smoking wounds again, when Mel draws on her powers for R'hllor, she sometimes bleeds and feels pain. The blood in Dance is described as black and smoking. So to me, much like a lot of these rituals they perform where there is a sacrifice of body -- there is a sacrifice of body taking place here.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

So will Jon survive a funeral pyre similar to Daenerys but this one revives him?

[kimim]

I agree with you completely. I detest him. I don't care how smart he is, he is as much of a killer as Gregor Clegane. Just because you do it with panache doesn't mean you're more honorable.

I love LF as a reader, not because he's good, but because he's fun to read. He's chaotic. His motives are a mystery. He's smart enough to be a real threat, though it's hard to figure out who/what he'll wreck next, and for what reason.

To get back to the OP, I think Jon's dead, and will need to be resurrected. What he does, if he returns as LC, how he responds to discovering his parentage, would all depend on who he is after this resurrection. Of course, he might just be mildly wounded lol.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

GRRM has done it already plenty of times in the series. He loves "fake death" cliffhangers. Brienne in AFFC, Theon at the end of ACOK, Davos at the end of ACOK, the last Catelyn chapter in ACOk which ended with Catelyn asking Brieene for her sword and people were thinking she was about to kill Jaime, etc,

Yeah I know which is why I pointed out the Arya-hound example, but this is very different.

Here, we have a group of people who have stabbed him several times, who admit then and there that they are trying to kill him "for the watch". Each of the examples you give has a hidden agenda for the person doing the killing (freeing jaime, sending Brienne after jaime, hiding davos to send him to get rickon, etc). Marsh has no hidden agenda. He's not going to be like "oops never mind I didn't really mean to stab you, carry on." He's going to finish the job.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Yes. Bowen Marsh is crying while he participates. But to the smoking wounds again, when Mel draws on her powers for R'hllor, she sometimes bleeds and feels pain. The blood in Dance is described as black and smoking. So to me, much like a lot of these rituals they perform where there is a sacrifice of body -- there is a sacrifice of body taking place here.

Ah, I forgot, blood has to be involved. "Only death can pay for life."

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I love LF as a reader, not because he's good, but because he's fun to read. He's chaotic. His motives are a mystery. He's smart enough to be a real threat, though it's hard to figure out who/what he'll wreck next, and for what reason.

To get back to the OP, I think Jon's dead, and will need to be resurrected. What he does, if he returns as LC, how he responds to discovering his parentage, would all depend on who he is after this resurrection. Of course, he might just be mildly wounded lol.

Oh, he is a fascinating character without a doubt. Obviously I enjoy the books immensely as I'm on my 5th read in less than a year. I positively cannot read anything else since I started these books. One of my favorite things about the books is that the characters are so very multi-faceted and complex. LF is definitely that, so, yes, in that he makes the book more interesting, I like him, just like all villians have to be really good at being really bad to make you love to hate them!

[Lykos]

I dreamed I saw Jon Snow last night - alive as you and me.

Says I, "but Jon you're three days dead." - "I never died." Says he.

"The copper counter killed you Jon, he stabbed you Jon." Says I

" 'takes more than that to kill a man." Says Jon "I didn't die"

From the Citadel up to the Wall where ever weirwoods grow -

And men unite so their pack survives, there you'll find Jon Snow. There you'll find Jon Snow.

There is power in the UnJon! :commie:

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Jon is the Ice Dragon. Think about it.

[2FallenStags]

Seriously?

She has been sent on an official mission by the Lannisters, she has been given a Valyrian sword, she refused to follow an order by her liege lady to kill the enemy commander to prove her innocence. Anyone would suspect Brienne without the benefit of reading her PoV.

A valyrian steel sword forged from the ancestral sword stolen from her murdered husband... UnCat has suffered too much betrayal to trust anyone who isn't named Stark at this point. If Brienne thought Cat was still alive then she may have acted differently, but as it stands she betrayed Cat by taking up with the Lannisters. If she had any clues whatsoever abt Sansa's status, then she may be redeemed, but that is unlikely.

[Mithras]

A ridiculous assumption which dismisses the fact that Jon is not dead yet and George more or less confirmed that Jon will not die.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

A ridiculous assumption which dismisses the fact that Jon is not dead yet and George more or less confirmed that Jon will not die.

Ok it's a bit over the top to call a quite credible theory "ridiculous" considering that Jon not dying would require some incredible stupidity from a large group of characters. Who stabs a guy to death and doesn't bother to check he's actually dead?

GRRM said "So you think he's dead do you?" Which confirms nothing. That statement is completely consistent with a scenario wherein Jon dies and is then resurrected.

[Mithras]

Ok it's a bit over the top to call a quite credible theory "ridiculous" considering that Jon not dying would require some incredible stupidity from a large group of characters. Who stabs a guy to death and doesn't bother to check he's actually dead?

GRRM said "So you think he's dead do you?" Which confirms nothing. That statement is completely consistent with a scenario wherein Jon dies and is then resurrected.

1. Not a large group of characters. There were only four or five of them.

2. Stabbing Jon at that point was already incredible stupidity.

3. The wounds are described in a vague manner. They might not be serious.

4. Not consistent at all. Here is the necessary parts of that interview.

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow?

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?

Well, I guess. Yes. That’s how I took it. The way it was written, it sounded like he was mortally wounded — and, you know, it’s you!

Well. I’m not going to address whether he’s dead or not. But as to why — didn’t you think the text established why they would want to assassinate him?

It’s a harsh chapter in terms of fan expectations. You go from this total high of Jon giving this rousing speech about going after the evil Ramsay Bolton, to this utter low of his men turning against him. So fans are not supposed to draw that conclusion he’s dead?

What I’m seeing from early reactions, admittedly just a handful, I think fans are going to split and argue about it until the next book comes out.

[sj4iy]

Jon's not dead yet.

No obviously fatal blow. Unreliable narrator giving us ambiguous details as to his injuries. He didn't even appear to die in front of us. No corpse.

Until we see him actually die, it's a bit of a jump to talk about how he'll be brought back.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

1. Not a large group of characters. There were only four or five of them.

2. Stabbing Jon at that point was already incredible stupidity.

3. The wounds are described in a vague manner. They might not be serious.

4. Not consistent at all. Here is the necessary parts of that interview.

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow?

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?

Well, I guess. Yes. That’s how I took it. The way it was written, it sounded like he was mortally wounded — and, you know, it’s you!

Well. I’m not going to address whether he’s dead or not. But as to why — didn’t you think the text established why they would want to assassinate him?

It’s a harsh chapter in terms of fan expectations. You go from this total high of Jon giving this rousing speech about going after the evil Ramsay Bolton, to this utter low of his men turning against him. So fans are not supposed to draw that conclusion he’s dead?

What I’m seeing from early reactions, admittedly just a handful, I think fans are going to split and argue about it until the next book comes out.

Please explain how what you quoted is inconsistent with literally any interpretation of the event, up to and including Jon is permanently dead, let alone the many interpretations wherein Jon dies and is resurrected.

People can stab Jon for a stupid reason but it would take a complete imbecile not to check that he's dead. 4-5 people is plenty for them to make sure. It's very much unlike the other "almost deaths" we've seen in that there is no hidden motive for Marsh and the others.

[Mithras]

I strongly suggest you all to read this.

[TheLightning Lord]

Not really, at this point nobody's story is "just beginning" - unless the series is going to expand to 15+ novels and I don't think even the most pessimistic among us think so.

Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

I strongly suggest you all to read this.

That was an awesome analysis.