Heresy 143 Winter Solstice Edition

[Voice]

This literally gave me goosebumps. I never put that together, all those bones in the cave and the weirwoods above. Creepy!!

It does beg the question... what's the significance of all the bones in the HoBW? The place shares many similarities with Bran's cave, yet it is known that there are no trees on Braavos.

That chapter, in my opinion, is the one that induces more goose prickles than any other. Bran, a living boy, enters the living altar of the Old Gods - where one may not only revere them, but learn from them in a far more direct manner than the other religions offer.

I think this draws a stark contrast with Craster's sacrifices that may illuminate some equal and opposite aspect to the manner in which they are harvested and used.

Bran seeks the altar of his own will. Bran feeds upon a paste made of berries from the Weirwood, who, feeds upon blood and bone given to the tree by men and Singers.

We also have record of the green men. This makes me wonder if greenseers can only be male. Be they Men or Singer.

If we imagine what might be the opposite of this tradition, we might be able to peer into truths as yet unpublished; a bit of the horrible truth Bran glimpsed beyond the veil of light... I think that truth is being mistaken for BR in Mel's flames.

For the First Men, he who passes the sentence must swing the sword. This results in a debt. As only death may pay for life, life requires death. The debt is paid by giving the blood of those condemned to weirwood. The weirwood then puts forth fruit, the life that has been paid for. The fruit/life contains the means by which one might warg or skinchange into the tree - the tree that in it's very biology embodies Life from the Death of Condemned.

I think we have an unDeath from the Life of Innocents sort of exchange going on with the babes offered by Craster. They are not sacrifices, or farmhands LOL. A man raping his daughters, and their daughters after them, has no need for his male bastards. And if white walkers never existed, he'd still abandon them to the wood.

Craster, in my view, is not a necessary player in the genesis of white walkers, as evidenced by his own ability to escape their wrath by offering them pigs and sheep in between sons.

Enough of those ramblings for now though, I like the similarities between the HoBaW, Beric's cave, and BR's cave. But, I think the HoBaW is a different creature all together. It makes sense that they collect bones, being they draw upon the strength of many different religions, as well as their main purpose being a place for people to come and seek the gift of death.

[Voice]

I wasn't suggesting exactly that,though that is another avenue of thinking about it.Whati was going for is that who we and people in Westeros call the COTF aren't the only ones; children or singers. Remember what Leaf refer to themselves as, "those who sing the song of earth".It stands to reason that there are other "singers" and they may not all "sing the song of Earth".

So what i'm suggesting is that the wws may also be "singers and children" except they maybe a different type.

I can dig that. Their speech sounds like the cracking of Ice, so it stands to reason that they would be "those who sing the song of ice," if ever there were singers of Ice ;)

Since we're going into the far reaches of theory into crackpot territory, let me ask what if they are simply Ice-Made-Living, and are true reflections of any and all they come into contact with:

• when coming into contact with a Man, ww's take on a Man's shape, build, weaponry, armor

when coming into contact with a Giant, ww's take on the Giant's shape, build, wooden club, barefootedness

when coming into contact with a CotF, ww's take on a CotF's shape, build, weirwood bow, leafy cloak

We've never seen them through the eyes of anyone not a Man... it may be that to each race, they appear like them. The closest we come is in V6's prologue. After his death he's living on within One Eye and sees white shadows moving stealthily through the village just before the wights (Thistle and company) "see" him. This stealthy movement, a shadow in the wood, would be an apt description of a wolf on the prowl in the night as well...might be he glimpsed a ww in wolf-form :D

ETA: along the line of the cracked pot, we've yet to see them from Bran's POV when looking out into the world through the eyes of the weirwood. Might be they look like shadowy grey-green sentinels :cool4:

ETA 2.0: plays into the "trees have eyes again" motif

[wolfmaid7]

I can dig that. Their speech sounds like the cracking of Ice, so it stands to reason that they would be "those who sing the song of ice," if ever there were singers of Ice ;)

Since we're going into the far reaches of theory into crackpot territory, let me ask what if they are simply Ice-Made-Living, and are true reflections of any and all they come into contact with:

• when coming into contact with a Man, ww's take on a Man's shape, build, weaponry, armor
• when coming into contact with a Giant, ww's take on the Giant's shape, build, wooden club, barefootedness
• when coming into contact with a CotF, ww's take on a CotF's shape, build, weirwood bow, leafy cloak

We've never seen them through the eyes of anyone not a Man... it may be that to each race, they appear like them. The closest we come is in V6's prologue. After his death he's living on within One Eye and sees white shadows moving stealthily through the village just before the wights (Thistle and company) "see" him. This stealthy movement, a shadow in the wood, would be an apt description of a wolf on the prowl in the night as well...might be he glimpsed a ww in wolf-form :D

ETA: along the line of the cracked pot, we've yet to see them from Bran's POV when looking out into the world through the eyes of the weirwood. Might be they look like shadowy grey-green sentinels :cool4:

ETA 2.0: plays into the "trees have eyes again" motif

I'm not buying their metamorphosis into various forms.Again that is one of the problems I have in trying to explain things that may not have anything to do with them. It gets to complicated and to much when we start giving them Marvel abilities.I think the tally is up to 6 of which 1 is true.

It should me noted the white shadows v6 saw "were" the Wights themselves. He went on to describe their white skins who was naked etc.

[addicted to snow]

I'm pretty sure that there is an 'Ice Hell' where a Stark is taken & this is why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell

I do not understand when they are taken there, or what the purpose is, but I think Benjen is there now...

This is the Frozen Hell that Ned Stark Dreamed of in AGoTs...

--

There is also a 'Fire Hell' where a Targ goes for some similar reason...

--

At some point Prior to Robert's Rebellion, Aemon Targ. read something in Castle Black's Library that tipped him off to the Starks association with Ice & Others & this Ice Hell... He was talking about death in AFFCs and mentioned several religions & their beliefs of the after life, then he spoke of something very similar to Ned's Frozen Hell...

Aemon told Rheagar & The Mad King... Who both had very peculiar reactions to this information...

R kidnapped L & attempted to breed with her...

The Mad King decided to give the Starks a taste of his 'Fire Hell' & wanted to extinguish the stark line... Why?

--

This is all of the information we have to go on thus far...

[Voice]

I'm not buying their metamorphosis into various forms.Again that is one of the problems I have in trying to explain things that may not have anything to do with them. It gets to complicated and to much when we start giving them Marvel abilities.I think the tally is up to 6 of which 1 is true.

It should me noted the white shadows v6 saw "were" the Wights themselves. He went on to describe their white skins who was naked etc.

Knew you'd catch that LOL Like I said, that was the closest we got, and even that wasn't very close. I'm not buying it either, just cracking the pot with ya ;)

I think this chapter shows how Others (or ww's?) kill with cold though. The same fate befell the wildlings Will found in the first prologue.

That was his last thought as a man.

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew. He bayed, and Sly and Stalker gave echo.

When they reached the crest the wolves paused. Thistle, he remembered, and a part of him grieved for what he had lost and another part for what he’d done. Below, the world had turned to ice. Fingers of frost crept slowly up the weirwood, reaching out for each other. The empty village was no longer empty. Blue-eyed shadows walked amongst the mounds of snow. Some wore brown and some wore black and some were nak**ed, their flesh gone white as snow. A wind was sighing through the hills, heavy with their scents: dead flesh, dry blood, skins that stank of mold and rot and urine. Sly gave a growl and bared her teeth, her ruff bristling. Not men. Not prey. Not these.

The things below moved, but did not live. One by one, they raised their heads toward the three wolves on the hill. The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.

She sees me.

Interesting how One Eye and V6 see the weirwood frosting over before their very eye ;)

Also interesting how the wind "sighs" isn't it? Beautiful writing from Martin, as usual, but I wonder if there's more to it... a voice in the wind... a command... or simply an intention to freeze the wildlings and wight them. As if that sigh meant death to whoever heard it.

[DarkRose_9]

I tend to agree with the idea of the wws not being a creation of the COTF. I am of two minds;the first being that the wws are also children. I pointed this out earlier but if the WB is right and " they could once be found from the Lands of Always Winter to the shores of the Summer Sea" I highly doubt they would be of the type that Leaf,Ash and Snowly locks are.Their very look is designed to blend with their environment and the wws have this same blending ability.I don't think we should dismissed that they mimicked a lot of their behavior from the Wildlings and the NW.Also,who is to say they weren't volunteers that were changed in a way such as Mel may have been changed and become flesh made ice.

I thought transformation was what you meant by the line above?

[DarkRose_9]

Since we're going into the far reaches of theory into crackpot territory, let me ask

what if they are simply Ice-Made-Living, and are true reflections of any and all they come into contact with:

• when coming into contact with a Man, ww's take on a Man's shape, build, weaponry, armor

when coming into contact with a Giant, ww's take on the Giant's shape, build, wooden club, barefootedness

when coming into contact with a CotF, ww's take on a CotF's shape, build, weirwood bow, leafy cloak

We've never seen them through the eyes of anyone not a Man... it may be that to each race, they appear like them. The closest we come is in V6's prologue. After his death he's living on within One Eye and sees white shadows moving stealthily through the village just before the wights (Thistle and company) "see" him. This stealthy movement, a shadow in the wood, would be an apt description of a wolf on the prowl in the night as well...might be he glimpsed a ww in wolf-form :D

ETA: along the line of the cracked pot, we've yet to see them from Bran's POV when looking out into the world through the eyes of the weirwood. Might be they look like shadowy grey-green sentinels :cool4:

ETA 2.0: plays into the "trees have eyes again" motif

This could still work - if not by actual physical change, then by the use of glamours, similar to what Arya experienced with the ugly girl persona. It's an interesting idea, to make your enemies see a twisted reflection of themselves.

[wolfmaid7]

Knew you'd catch that LOL Like I said, that was the closest we got, and even that wasn't very close. I'm not buying it either, just cracking the pot with ya ;)

I think this chapter shows how Others (or ww's?) kill with cold though. The same fate befell the wildlings Will found in the first prologue.

That was his last thought as a man.

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew. He bayed, and Sly and Stalker gave echo.

When they reached the crest the wolves paused. Thistle, he remembered, and a part of him grieved for what he had lost and another part for what hed done. Below, the world had turned to ice. Fingers of frost crept slowly up the weirwood, reaching out for each other. The empty village was no longer empty. Blue-eyed shadows walked amongst the mounds of snow. Some wore brown and some wore black and some were nak**ed, their flesh gone white as snow. A wind was sighing through the hills, heavy with their scents: dead flesh, dry blood, skins that stank of mold and rot and urine. Sly gave a growl and bared her teeth, her ruff bristling. Not men. Not prey. Not these.

The things below moved, but did not live. One by one, they raised their heads toward the three wolves on the hill. The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.

She sees me.

Interesting how One Eye and V6 see the weirwood frosting over before their very eye ;)

Also interesting how the wind "sighs" isn't it? Beautiful writing from Martin, as usual, but I wonder if there's more to it... a voice in the wind... a command... or simply an intention to freeze the wildlings and wight them. As if that sigh meant death to whoever heard it.

I do believe there is something on the wind .We've had Varymur being borne on some cold wind and the voices of the G reenseers on the wind. If this was something the wws could accomplish Sam and co would be dead from Ser Puddles presence and the 6 wws alone would have knocked Waymar and co on their asses just from being around. If it was something they weaved and manipulate which is not shown.

They are constant in their output.

[wolfmaid7]

I thought transformation was what you meant by the line above?

It could work, I said I wasn't thinking of Bran's type of singers making the transformation giving themselves to that power. But again it is possible some of them gave themselves. I just couldn't see from what we are told that they were also homogeneous.

[Black Crow]

I wasn't suggesting exactly that,though that is another avenue of thinking about it.Whati was going for is that who we and people in Westeros call the COTF aren't the only ones; children or singers. Remember what Leaf refer to themselves as, "those who sing the song of earth".It stands to reason that there are other "singers" and they may not all "sing the song of Earth".

So what i'm suggesting is that the wws may also be "singers and children" except they maybe a different type.

I'm not so sure and think that once again the oath is the key:

“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green.

“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said.

“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together

If, as we've discussed in the past, we interpret this as the first line representing the old races and bronze and iron representing men then the children are straightforward in that they are singing the song of the earth and probably also of the water that nourishes as well, for they are linked, just as bronze and iron are. It could be argued that there are singers of water as represented by the drowned god etc. but I think that the first option is correct.

As to Ice and Fire, which is what this is supposedly all about we've discussed this up and down and while there was a fairly broad feeling that it relates to magic, I don't recall whether we came to any firm conclusions, but I would suggest that they represent how the old gods and the new work their great magic, ie; in this case the children, the singers of the song of earth use water in the form of Ice to work great magic such as the Wall while Fire belongs to men.

Just as there are different aspects of Fire ranging all the way through practitioners of magic such as the R'hllorists, and the dragon-riders of Valyria all the way down to one of the First Men clearing the land by burning, so there may be some greenseers who specialise in playing with Ice, but I don't go with their being the walkers, but rather those who create them from living babies just as they create wights from the dead, whether directly or by proxy. Like it or not the only text we've got so far gives the walkers a human origin, whether its that passage in the World Book - or Craster's sons

[Armstark]

Knew you'd catch that LOL Like I said, that was the closest we got, and even that wasn't very close. I'm not buying it either, just cracking the pot with ya ;)

I think this chapter shows how Others (or ww's?) kill with cold though. The same fate befell the wildlings Will found in the first prologue.

That was his last thought as a man.

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew. He bayed, and Sly and Stalker gave echo.

When they reached the crest the wolves paused. Thistle, he remembered, and a part of him grieved for what he had lost and another part for what he’d done. Below, the world had turned to ice. Fingers of frost crept slowly up the weirwood, reaching out for each other. The empty village was no longer empty. Blue-eyed shadows walked amongst the mounds of snow. Some wore brown and some wore black and some were nak**ed, their flesh gone white as snow. A wind was sighing through the hills, heavy with their scents: dead flesh, dry blood, skins that stank of mold and rot and urine. Sly gave a growl and bared her teeth, her ruff bristling. Not men. Not prey. Not these.

The things below moved, but did not live. One by one, they raised their heads toward the three wolves on the hill. The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.

She sees me.

Interesting how One Eye and V6 see the weirwood frosting over before their very eye ;)

Also interesting how the wind "sighs" isn't it? Beautiful writing from Martin, as usual, but I wonder if there's more to it... a voice in the wind... a command... or simply an intention to freeze the wildlings and wight them. As if that sigh meant death to whoever heard it.

It's interesting that cold seems to be associated with death in general. The moment of dying is always cold. Here is Renly's last word:

“Cold,” said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat.

So even if you are killed by a shadow from the fire sorceress it feels cold.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I do believe there is something on the wind .We've had Varymur being borne on some cold wind and the voices of the G reenseers on the wind. If this was something the wws could accomplish Sam and co would be dead from Ser Puddles presence and the 6 wws alone would have knocked Waymar and co on their asses just from being around. If it was something they weaved and manipulate which is not shown.

They are constant in their output.

Actually, these are not consistent. This type of cold wasn't present at the Fist. It was cold and snowing but not that cold. Waymar and company didn't die from the cold they met. The cold in adwd prologue is very harsh and quick spreading. This is the only time we have seen ice and frost spread so quickly.

Varamyr's body not shown among the wights is intriguing and telling.

[wolfmaid7]

Actually, these are not consistent. This type of cold wasn't present at the Fist. It was cold and snowing but not that cold. Waymar and company didn't die from the cold they met. The cold in adwd prologue is very harsh and quick spreading. This is the only time we have seen ice and frost spread so quickly.

Varamyr's body not shown among the wights is intriguing and telling.

I wasn't speaking of the Wight hordes, I was speaking of the WWs. They don't have any variants to the cold they emit. You are right about the hordes.while all the signs are the same in each attack and they are they vary in intensity equating a rise and fall -a pattern.

But there's a reason why the Wildlings got nervous when the looked up at the sky.Sam pointed that out in Affc.So with the Wights whats consistent is all the signs but there is a movement to their cold it inhale and e xhales if I may say so.

[wolfmaid7]

It's interesting that cold seems to be associated with death in general. The moment of dying is always cold. Here is Renly's last word:

“Cold,” said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat.

So even if you are killed by a shadow from the fire sorceress it feels cold.

Kinda shows again who is the master of death so to speak. I'll add on top of that MMD ritual her statement that " the dead will dance here tonight" always struck me.

I'm not so sure and think that once again the oath is the key:

“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green.

“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said.

“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together

If, as we've discussed in the past, we interpret this as the first line representing the old races and bronze and iron representing men then the children are straightforward in that they are singing the song of the earth and probably also of the water that nourishes as well, for they are linked, just as bronze and iron are. It could be argued that there are singers of water as represented by the drowned god etc. but I think that the first option is correct.

As to Ice and Fire, which is what this is supposedly all about we've discussed this up and down and while there was a fairly broad feeling that it relates to magic, I don't recall whether we came to any firm conclusions, but I would suggest that they represent how the old gods and the new work their great magic, ie; in this case the children, the singers of the song of earth use water in the form of Ice to work great magic such as the Wall while Fire belongs to men.

Just as there are different aspects of Fire ranging all the way through practitioners of magic such as the R'hllorists, and the dragon-riders of Valyria all the way down to one of the First Men clearing the land by burning, so there may be some greenseers who specialise in playing with Ice, but I don't go with their being the walkers, but rather those who create them from living babies just as they create wights from the dead, whether directly or by proxy. Like it or not the only text we've got so far gives the walkers a human origin, whether its that passage in the World Book - or Craster's sons

I don't think it's far off.We've discussed before what Fire and Ice could be in this Oath,are they both swearing by the magical weapons they used.Or were there other factions involved in this Oath? Oh i wasn't saying the GSs are the Walkers no not at all.The wws to me iff we break down their look in essence is the singers of earth.But that itself doesn't say that they weren't human in origin just that its interesting.

[Voice]

I do believe there is something on the wind .We've had Varymur being borne on some cold wind and the voices of the G reenseers on the wind. If this was something the wws could accomplish Sam and co would be dead from Ser Puddles presence and the 6 wws alone would have knocked Waymar and co on their asses just from being around. If it was something they weaved and manipulate which is not shown.

They are constant in their output.

ww's are constant in their output, but perhaps their boss can do more

[Black Crow]

I'd just add a minor caveat to the current lines of enquiry in that GRRM has now been writing this story for nigh on quarter of a century. While we've absolutely no reason to doubt that the ultimate outcome both of the story itself and the principal character arcs remain exactly as he originally envisaged, we know that some of the in-between stuff has wandered and I'm also sure that a lot of the detail has been refined in his mind over the years, so I wouldn't necessarily get too exercised by apparent discrepancies in temperature between the prologue to AGoT and that of ADwD just as I wouldn't be surprised if we never learn just how Othor managed to find his way to Mormont's chambers

[wolfmaid7]

ww's are constant in their output, but perhaps their boss can do more

If a GS is behind the wws,i have no doubt they can do more....within limits of their powers.

I'd just add a minor caveat to the current lines of enquiry in that GRRM has now been writing this story for nigh on quarter of a century. While we've absolutely no reason to doubt that the ultimate outcome both of the story itself and the principal character arcs remain exactly as he originally envisaged, we know that some of the in-between stuff has wandered and I'm also sure that a lot of the detail has been refined in his mind over the years, so I wouldn't necessarily get too exercised by apparent discrepancies in temperature between the prologue to AGoT and that of ADwD just as I wouldn't be surprised if we never learn just how Othor managed to find his way to Mormont's chambers

If its constantly repeating it goes towards a pattern though and for the moment when it comes to the otherside that's kind of a voice and maybe the only voice they have until we get a POV.But we have seen some pretty weird stuff going on with the weather and as i stated before the Wildlings reconize this so much that when a Snow sky appeared they were very eager to get behind the Wall. Its an anomally even Sam recognized.So i can't say we dismiss it as just something that wandered.He to me has been deliberate in this.

[Black Crow]

If its constantly repeating it goes towards a pattern though and for the moment when it comes to the otherside that's kind of a voice and maybe the only voice they have until we get a POV.But we have seen some pretty weird stuff going on with the weather and as i stated before the Wildlings reconize this so much that when a Snow sky appeared they were very eager to get behind the Wall. Its an anomally even Sam recognized.So i can't say we dismiss it as just something that wandered.He to me has been deliberate in this.

I have to disagree there and say that its much simpler. The walkers normally come in the night but as Sam notes they can also come in falling snow and that's what the wildlings are afraid of. So long as the daylight lasts they are safe, or so they thought, but if it comes on to snow while they are still on the wrong side of the Wall...

[Voice]

Actually, these are not consistent. This type of cold wasn't present at the Fist. It was cold and snowing but not that cold. Waymar and company didn't die from the cold they met. The cold in adwd prologue is very harsh and quick spreading. This is the only time we have seen ice and frost spread so quickly.

Varamyr's body not shown among the wights is intriguing and telling.

Agreed. But given the way Will found the wildlings in the GOT prologue (before they lumbered off), I think we can reasonably assume they were also killed with a sudden drop in temperature. As were the wildlings in Thisle's camp. The wildlings Will found were all frozen in place (remember the far-eyes up in the tree) like a snapshot.

I always liked wolfmaid's idea of a sentient power in the wind/cold, or a sentient being or beings controlling it -- and I give her credit for it. I differ from her in that I think the Others have weaponized it... Hence the age-old question, does it get cold when they come, or do they come when it gets cold?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Yes, the wildlings in the first prologue were frozen in place. It's consistent with the adwd prologue insta-freeze. I was going after the onscreen times. The cold and darkness are the constants, but the conditions are not always the same i.e. no snow, windy, snowing, no wind etc.

In the prologue, would what's his face in the tree froze there if the white walkers hung around for a little longer?