Heresy 143 Winter Solstice Edition

[Voice]

I agree with you that the term Others is an umbrella term and honestly i think it is the root problem for misidentifying what's what and whose who. I mean if i say i saw something that was white with blue eyes depending on how i relay the story it could mean one of two things from where i sit..

A side note i'm not sure if Dragonglass can or can't harm Wights. Sam's dagger shattered on Small Paul's mail so we don't know really do we.

That's precisely why we do know, in my opinion. When the white walker tried to pull out the dragonglass knife, it melted his hands. Wights are animated dead flesh, and far more durable, it would seem, than a white walker when it comes to dealing with obsidian. Fire for wights, frozen fire for sidhe made of Ice, an Ice Wall to impede Ice Spiders, and dragonsteel to defeat the original Others that came in the Long Night... to each, his own. It explains why LH = AA, and for me at least, opens more doors into understanding the nature of the Others, white walkers, wights, the power that binds them and turns their eyes blue, and why they are vulnerable to unique substances.

[Voice]

I don't know if anyone noted this but i was just looking at the Dorne section of the WB chasing a thought but i came across this part about the breaking of the are.On pg 236.

"Finally driven by desperation the little people turned to sorcery and beseeched their Greenseers to stem the tide of these invaders.And they did gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of faces),and calling on their Old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood,one version said,one version of the tale goes,while another claims the children used the blood of their own young).And the Old Gods stirred ,and giants awoke in the earth and all of westeros shook and trembled .Great cracks appeared in the earth ,and the hills and mountains collapsed and were swalloed up and the seas came rushing in"

Its too late for me to give words to my thought because it is a crackpot what this could mean in terms of what the cotf might have created that day if this legend is true.

Nice catch. I had a feeling they were sacrificing Men long before the First Men organized.

But, to be fair, there isn't anything listed as being created by them. The Old Gods were already there, stirred, and giants awoke (but were also already there) in the earth. I know you are a fan of Native American oral history, and there is a parallel there. For many tribes in the southwest, Arizona, southern California, and northern Mexico, earthquakes are described as being the result of giants from the time of creation stirring beneath the Earth's surface.

It is believed that they still live in the underworld and stir from time to time. I think this might be somewhat analogous with the weirnet itself. The interlinked root system of Weirwood Trees may be the foundation of Westeros itself, hence the horror felt by Singers when Men began to destroy them, and, the ability of tapped-in rooted GS (who had skinchanged the trees and roots themselves) to manipulate the surface of the continent.

[wolfmaid7]

That's precisely why we do know, in my opinion. When the white walker tried to pull out the dragonglass knife, it melted his hands. Wights are animated dead flesh, and far more durable, it would seem, than a white walker when it comes to dealing with obsidian. Fire for wights, frozen fire for sidhe made of Ice, an Ice Wall to impede Ice Spiders, and dragonsteel to defeat the original Others that came in the Long Night... to each, his own. It explains why LH = AA, and for me at least, opens more doors into understanding the nature of the Others, white walkers, wights, the power that binds them and turns their eyes blue, and why they are vulnerable to unique substances.

I am still skeptical only because mail Is mail and it is stronger than Obsidian which isn't shatter proof.I would like to see what would have happened if Sam's thrust had penetrated skin. How that would have affected what was inside. What we do know from that encounter is Obsidian against mail will lose.

ETA: serious typo.What happens when you post using your phone.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Such a crilk of a river.

[wolfmaid7]

Nice catch. I had a feeling they were sacrificing Men long before the First Men organized.

But, to be fair, there isn't anything listed as being created by them. The Old Gods were already there, stirred, and giants awoke (but were also already there) in the earth. I know you are a fan of Native American oral history, and there is a parallel there. For many tribes in the southwest, Arizona, southern California, and northern Mexico, earthquakes are described as being the result of giants from the time of creation stirring beneath the Earth's surface.

It is believed that they still live in the underworld and stir from time to time. I think this might be somewhat analogous with the weirnet itself. The interlinked root system of Weirwood Trees may be the foundation of Westeros itself, hence the horror felt by Singers when Men began to destroy them, and, the ability of tapped-in rooted GS (who had skinchanged the trees and roots themselves) to manipulate the surface of the continent.

I should have gone further with what I had on mind.What I was getting at was it seems prior to the COTF being forced to use blood sacrifices the GS seemed to have not had intervened so maybe because while they were real to the COTF they weren't "real".

That whole line about the "And the gods stirred" made it seem as if that was the "first" time there was such a direct intervention.

I'm wondering if the quickening had to do with the blood they used from the first men.Essentially that they created the incarnation of their gods by giving the Weirwoods souls from a race that could easily sync with creatures.

Its farfetched I know but hey what things are slow.

[Voice]

I am still skeptical only because mail Is mail and it is stronger than Obsidian which isn't shatter proof.I would like to see what would have happened if Sam's thrust had penetrated skin. How that would have affected what was inside. What we do know from that encounter is Obsidian agar mail wilk lose.

As am I, but white walkers are armored also.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I don't know if anyone noted this but i was just looking at the Dorne section of the WB chasing a thought but i came across this part about the breaking of the are.On pg 236.

"Finally driven by desperation the little people turned to sorcery and beseeched their Greenseers to stem the tide of these invaders.And they did gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of faces),and calling on their Old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood,one version said,one version of the tale goes,while another claims the children used the blood of their own young).And the Old Gods stirred ,and giants awoke in the earth and all of westeros shook and trembled .Great cracks appeared in the earth ,and the hills and mountains collapsed and were swalloed up and the seas came rushing in"

Its too late for me to give words to my thought because it is a crackpot what this could mean in terms of what the cotf might have created that day if this legend is true.

If you look at The Reach chapter in the world book, when the Andals began to invade Westeros they looked to the Singers for help. The king sent out people to find the Children to stop the invading Andals. Sounds like they heard about some magik the Singers cold perform to disrupt unwanteds.

Then there is the woods witch, brought up earlier, who the king wanted to use. Use to raise armies of the dead to fight against the Andals.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

As am I, but white walkers are armored also.

Right. The obsidian dagger pierced the 'flesh' of the white walker. What if the dagger hit the armor instead?

[Voice]

I should have gone further with what I had on mind.What I was getting at was it seems prior to the COTF being forced to use blood sacrifices the GS seemed to have not had intervened so maybe because while they were real to the COTF they weren't "real".

That whole line about the "And the gods stirred" made it seem as if that was the "first" time there was such a direct intervention.

I'm wondering if the quickening had to do with the blood they used from the first men.Essentially that they created the incarnation of their gods by giving the Weirwoods souls from a race that could easily sync with creatures.

Its farfetched I know but hey what things are slow.

Doesn't sound any more far fetched than a wildling archer being able to shoot an arrow at a target 700ft in the air ;)

It's often been suggested that the Breaking of the Arm had undesirable after-effects, which is why the Children were hesitant to use such power again. I think Maester Luwin says as much.

With that said, I prefer to think they manipulated pre-existing conditions/resources though (real resources though, that while perhaps deemed "magical," still have a non-divine, physical form) rather than creating a "New" incarnation of their markedly "Old" Gods.

[Voice]

Right. The obsidian dagger pierced the 'flesh' of the white walker. What if the dagger hit the armor instead?

As Sidhe made of Ice, I would guess their armor, if it consists of anything more tangible than light itself, would be Ice as well. This all depends on our imaginations while reading of course, but, being that their blades shatter steel, the purpose of their armor seems to concealment rather than protection.

[Black Crow]

Here, when he sent Val north to find Tormund:

"Monster?"

"His milk name. I had to call him something. See that he stays safe and warm. For his mother's sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires."

Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. "Ashes and cinders."

"Kings and dragons."

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame. "If she knew, she would have taken the boy away from us. Dalla's boy, not your monster. A word in the king's ear would have been the end of it." And of me. Stannis would have taken it for treason. "Why let it happen if she knew?"

"Because it suited her. Fire is a fickle thing. No one knows which way a flame will go."

A little late to the party as it moved again while I was giving it ZZZZZZs...

Whilst eagerly seized upon by the faithful in another place this doesn't mean Jon is having dragon dreams at all, but is envisaging them as described in Old Nan's stories - and I'm not referring to the icy kind, but rather the remark that the red star meant dragons.

[Black Crow]

As Sidhe made of Ice, I would guess their armor, if it consists of anything more tangible than light itself, would be Ice as well. This all depends on our imaginations while reading of course, but, being that their blades shatter steel, the purpose of their armor seems to concealment rather than protection.

Yes, I'd agree. As described I think the stealth armour is made of ice and its the reflective qualities of the stuff which we're seeing. So far as protection rather concealment goes I think its probably a mistake to regard Craster's boys as invulnerable to everything except dragonglass and that had Ser Waymar been a better swordsman he might have damaged the first twin. They need protection like everybody else against weapons of iron and bronze but the problem with dragonglass is that it doesn't just make them bleed but melt.

As to whether dragonglass might "de-animate" [?] wights I don't know. In theory I would have thought it possible but it seems an expensive way to go especially as ordinary armour is perfectly effective. Something I wonder about while writing this is what happened to Mulley's horse after Sam did for Ser Puddles.

[Voice]

Yes, I'd agree. As described I think the stealth armour is made of ice and its the reflective qualities of the stuff which we're seeing. So far as protection rather concealment goes I think its probably a mistake to regard Craster's boys as invulnerable to everything except dragonglass and that had Ser Waymar been a better swordsman he might have damaged the first twin. They need protection like everybody else against weapons of iron and bronze but the problem with dragonglass is that it doesn't just make them bleed but melt.

Great theory, but we have no evidence suggesting white walkers are vulnerable to anything but dragonglass. Remember, "The Other's parry was almost lazy." I don't think they are vulnerable to normal weaponry.

As to whether dragonglass might "de-animate" [?] wights I don't know. In theory I would have thought it possible but it seems an expensive way to go especially as ordinary armour is perfectly effective. Something I wonder about while writing this is what happened to Mulley's horse after Sam did for Ser Puddles.

It remains to be seen, and I have a strong feeling this, at least, is one area in which we will definitely get clarification when Winds is published. I would be nice to know more about their mounts in general. Do they roam riderless? Or dissolve/de-animate with the rider?

[MaesterSam]

I think it's ironic my idea of Ancient Others is deemed too novel, but presuming the existence of ice dragons, or some entirely new entity is just fine... when we have the stories of the Last Hero, Night's King, the Long Night, and the Annals at Castle Black that all point to there being a higher order of Others than we have yet seen. I am not labeling them an invading army, rather, I agree they are few in number, but Crackles and his crew definitely fit the bill as scouts.

My Ancient/Original Others are likely Night's King and his 12 predecessors/disciples. His pale bride is likely the womb of creation for white walkers. In my mind, they will hunt using ice spiders, and ride them. Spiders are great climbers, and they can easily scale a wall.

Spiders. Climb. Walls.

We may easily deduce that Ice Spiders climb Walls of Ice. This, in my reasoning anyway, is a far more textually-based explanation for the existence of the Wall and its extreme height than assuming it contains dragon eggs, ice dragons, or a volcano.

[snip]

"We knew all this. The question is, how do we fight them?"

"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed, and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian. I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

You know I like your Ancient Others theory! The paragraph I bolded is a nice bit of evidence showing the confusion over what's what. Sam (and by extension, the annals) clearly group wights and white walkers together as Others. Yet after the Fist, Sam makes a clear distinction between wights and Others, while Tormund refers to the Others as mists. It appears almost like a "none of the above" category- if it's not human, CotF, or giant, it's called an Other.

As a side note, I would be interested in how you might expand your theory to include the various "pale/gray woman with cold lips" creation stories for many of the other cultures (i.e. Garin/Shrouded Lord, the origin of the Seven, and one or two others I can't think of at the moment). It seems like some version of the Night's Queen may have existed in multiple locations, always giving rise to legendary figures in that society. Legendary magical figures, I might add.

I don't know if anyone noted this but i was just looking at the Dorne section of the WB chasing a thought but i came across this part about the breaking of the are.On pg 236.

"Finally driven by desperation the little people turned to sorcery and beseeched their Greenseers to stem the tide of these invaders.And they did gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of faces),and calling on their Old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood,one version said,one version of the tale goes,while another claims the children used the blood of their own young).And the Old Gods stirred ,and giants awoke in the earth and all of westeros shook and trembled .Great cracks appeared in the earth ,and the hills and mountains collapsed and were swalloed up and the seas came rushing in"

Its too late for me to give words to my thought because it is a crackpot what this could mean in terms of what the cotf might have created that day if this legend is true.

Hmmm. Great cracks appeared in the earth and the hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up, and the seas came rushing in. I wonder what would happen if a similar event occurred... underneath a group of volcanoes? :dunno:

[Srecan]

Yes, I'd agree. As described I think the stealth armour is made of ice and its the reflective qualities of the stuff which we're seeing. So far as protection rather concealment goes I think its probably a mistake to regard Craster's boys as invulnerable to everything except dragonglass and that had Ser Waymar been a better swordsman he might have damaged the first twin. They need protection like everybody else against weapons of iron and bronze but the problem with dragonglass is that it doesn't just make them bleed but melt.

As to whether dragonglass might "de-animate" [?] wights I don't know. In theory I would have thought it possible but it seems an expensive way to go especially as ordinary armour is perfectly effective. Something I wonder about while writing this is what happened to Mulley's horse after Sam did for Ser Puddles.

I allways believed that their armour is obviusly a magical one, meant both to protect and conceal. I thought that point we needed to learn from that encounter when Sam killed that Other was that obsidian is actually a weapon against Ice magic, not just Others. Following that thought, if Sam poked Small Paul in his blue eye instead of his mail who knows what would happen.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Oooh, so when you say Jon has no Targ relation, do you mean you're doubting Rhaegar's paternity or simply that his Targ blood is of no importance in comparison to his Stark descent?

Snowy can correct me if i'm wrong but it's Jon's paternity he's doubting. Him being excluded as a Targ may not exclude his father from having Targ blood or better yet the blood of Old Valyria which is not limited to the Targs.

Yes, that is my strong leaning: that Rhaegar is not Jon Snow's father. I suspect there is a better candidate. I won't get into that here, as the topic of Jon's parentage can get passionate and Heresy is designed to be a relatively RLJ-free space. (On the other hand, I've been reminded recently that the threads designated for discussion of RLJ are not so interested in discussing, or even acknowledging, the shortcomings of that theory - deficiencies that I myself find rather fascinating... so for the moment I'm mostly reserving my thoughts on the matter for off-board conversation.)

[Black Crow]

I allways believed that their armour is obviusly a magical one, meant both to protect and conceal. I thought that point we needed to learn from that encounter when Sam killed that Other was that obsidian is actually a weapon against Ice magic, not just Others. Following that thought, if Sam poked Small Paul in his blue eye instead of his mail who knows what would happen.

I'd suspect poking a wight in the eye with a shard of dragonglass would be quite effective providing they shuffle forward singly per Othor or Small Paul, but once again I'd imagine it would be moot when facing an inhuman wave attack.

[Black Crow]

You know I like your Ancient Others theory! The paragraph I bolded is a nice bit of evidence showing the confusion over what's what. Sam (and by extension, the annals) clearly group wights and white walkers together as Others. Yet after the Fist, Sam makes a clear distinction between wights and Others, while Tormund refers to the Others as mists. It appears almost like a "none of the above" category- if it's not human, CotF, or giant, it's called an Other.

This is actually a theory that's been around in heresy for a very long time now and to my mind one which resolves the supposed issue of "ancient" and "modern"; ie; that while the walkers are unquestionably Others and introduced as such in the prologue, they are not the one and only Others but rather the latter term is actually broader and is not confined to the walkers alone.

Mormont, famously, is concerned but not afrighted by the white walkers on the shore at Eastwatch and indeed at that point we don't know that they are Others [and perhaps nor does Mormont] until the later chapter when Old Nan starts off her Last Hero story with the coming of the walkers only for Bran to insist that they should be referred to as the Others.

The key perhaps may lie in Qhorin's warning about the Old Powers wakening, ie; the walkers are normally just an occasional hazard in the woods in winter and its the return of magic, and the awakening of those old powers which is giving the walkers their undead servants and turning them into something much more dangerous. The trees have eyes again, the greenseers are reaching out and all the powers of hell; children, greenseers, walkers and wights - the Others - are on the move.

[wolfmaid7]

If you look at The Reach chapter in the world book, when the Andals began to invade Westeros they looked to the Singers for help. The king sent out people to find the Children to stop the invading Andals. Sounds like they heard about some magik the Singers cold perform to disrupt unwanteds.

Then there is the woods witch, brought up earlier, who the king wanted to use. Use to raise armies of the dead to fight against the Andals.

I haven't read that one yet,but given what happened the FM might have and rightfully thought the COTF after the Arm and maybe other things had this power. The WB goes on to state that "by the time the greenseers sang their song it was too late" the damage was done.Leading me to believe that was the first time they were active like that and that it was the FM blood that probably did something to the weirwoods.The COTF probably came to that conclusion themselves hence using human GS with a particular blood.

Doesn't sound any more far fetched than a wildling archer being able to shoot an arrow at a target 700ft in the air ;)

It's often been suggested that the Breaking of the Arm had undesirable after-effects, which is why the Children were hesitant to use such power again. I think Maester Luwin says as much.

With that said, I prefer to think they manipulated pre-existing conditions/resources though (real resources though, that while perhaps deemed "magical," still have a non-divine, physical form) rather than creating a "New" incarnation of their markedly "Old" Gods.

What i'm basically saying is the blood of their foes bred life into their gods where before they were real as a belief.Now they were actually real (at lease to them and then the FM) If we want to make connections we can trace the fact that the Esossi blood of the FM is magical.Look at that place its just teaming with magical abilities.The COTF tried their hand at sorcery for the first time and bam the "gods stirred"

Hmmm. Great cracks appeared in the earth and the hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up, and the seas came rushing in. I wonder what would happen if a similar event occurred... underneath a group of volcanoes? :dunno:

That would be bad,very bad.Interesting how that line mirrors what the Horn of Joramun is supposed to have done.

Yes, that is my strong leaning: that Rhaegar is not Jon Snow's father. I suspect there is a better candidate. I won't get into that here, as the topic of Jon's parentage can get passionate and Heresy is designed to be a relatively RLJ-free space. (On the other hand, I've been reminded recently that the threads designated for discussion of RLJ are not so interested in discussing, or even acknowledging, the shortcomings of that theory - deficiencies that I myself find rather fascinating... so for the moment I'm mostly reserving my thoughts on the matter for off-board conversation.)

I actually gave up on even trying over there.Its pointless.But PM i'd like to see you have.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I allways believed that their armour is obviusly a magical one, meant both to protect and conceal. I thought that point we needed to learn from that encounter when Sam killed that Other was that obsidian is actually a weapon against Ice magic, not just Others. Following that thought, if Sam poked Small Paul in his blue eye instead of his mail who knows what would happen.

Thats what I was talking about, the purpose of the armor is not only camouflage it also protects. If Sam would have struck armor then I think Puddles would not have melted away. The wws are not so easily dealt with since it takes a hit to the flesh, just like any other armor wearing soldier/warrior, and it probably takes more than common steel to kill. And I agree there is a possibility obsidian in the eye may take down a wight, but it's hard to stab em all.