Daenerys big secret

[Squab]

Lemonwood

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Dany is already subverting the princess trope in many ways, and has been since AGoT. She doesn't need this extra twist.

I think the theories have gotten so out of hand because of that 11 year gap between ASOS and ADWD. People read and discussed the actually good theories so much, over such a long time, that they became accepted widely as essentially "fact" - R+L=J is one of those, and rightfully so. But because people are people, this wide consensus prompted attempts at finding new theories - but without new books, all people could do was just find increasingly less likely interpretations of the existing books. So now, for example, someone claiming that Dany was raised in Dorne and is not a Targaryen sounds really insightful and FRESH, but if you just take a step back and read the actual books (in a non-autistic way, where you read the words on the page but also consider the story as a whole), that person is just wrong. What books are they reading?

It's like they've convinced themselves that GRRM writes with the sole purpose of making them solve his mysteries.

Like you said, Dany's character is already subversive and you'd wonder at the quality of the writing if everyone is someone else. And her journey is also intended to be the opposite to fAegons: he will struggle proving he's a real Targaryen (no one will doubt his conquering prowess and apparent fitness to rule), Dany struggles proving she's got what it takes to rule (no one doubts who she is). There's a delicate balance there in arming different characters with certain qualities, while also "burdening" them with less appealing ones, and then making them fight it out for the ultimate prize. What's the point if they have the same strengths and flaws? If it turns out that Dany is someone else (much like if it's somehow definitively proved fAegon is legitimate), it's like - what's the point? Other than having a cheap twist, just because you can. You'd surprise your readers, at the cost of the really strong character arcs you've spent 2 decades building.

[Isobel Harper]

True. I'm not sure that all supporting the idea of said lemontree being in Dorne are also supporting the idea that she is not truly Daenerys Targaryen, but it did seem to be implied in some posts. I don't really see the significance of the lemontree being in Dorne, and doubtfully is Dorne the only place on Planetos where lemontrees grow. Surely, Daenerys remembering (falsely or not) a lemontree on Braavos has some significance given GRRM depiction of Braavosi soil as being hospitable to trees. This may mean that there are very, very few places on Braavos where a lemontree might be, and we might, therefore, potentially get a glimpse of the place where she grew up, perhaps through Arya's POV since she is in Braavos. Or, it could mean something deeper, as someone pointed out earlier, in that Daenerys traveled so much as a young child that her memories are somewhat clouded, with the whole "ideal" childhood she had in Braavos being one that she more or less constructed from her imagination and false memories. I also stated earlier that it might have not been a lemontree, but a sigil with lemons or lemontrees that she misremembers as an actual tree. Even if it were a Westerosi sigil, it could technically still hang in Braavos, though it might've been a Braavosi sigil as well. (Note: Darry's sigil is a black plowman on brown, so it wouldn't have been Darry's if so.)

[Rawhead]

Daenerys big secret

She's in love with the blue eyed king with the red sword in hand who casts no shadow, even though she hasn't met him yet. :laugh:

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

snip

The lemon tree not being in Braavos doesn't mean Dany has a secret identity or isn't really a Targ. But George put a deliberate inconsistency in and there is a mystery to be solved, whether it's about identity or something else. And considering that George is still dropping hints about this lemon tree six books in, it's a fairly safe assumption that the mystery is something major.

Considering that he has secret identity mysteries for two of the Big Three, I don't think it would be that ridiculous to think he give the third a secret identity as well. On the other hand, I don't believe he'll use them as a big twist. I expect very few solutions to the books' mysteries to be stated outright. I think we'll get just enough hints for astute readers to put together.

[edd tollett:(]

Well , first of all HI

this is my 2nd post since i registed

Daenerys dreams of the house with the red door in bravos ... with a damn lemon tree . NOW THATS BS.

Knowing that Braavos doesnt have almost any trees of any sort because of their poisonous soil (GRRM talks writes about this over and over and over ) what the hell is she thinking about ? She had a home in Braavos , her real home has she recalls living there , but , if it was not Braavos in the first place ?

I dont have any theory about this , but i think we could discuss this more deeper (something tells me that there is something for we to figure out here)

PS: dont give me the un-kiss excuse , Daenerys memories allways made sense to me until now.

Sorry about my english

Cheers

OMG! Again with this god damn lemon tree, hahaha

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

I am still waiting that someone who believes that Dany was in Dorne explains to me the involvement of Sealord of Braavos, or its necessity.

because the sealord of bravos is a secret targaryen

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I think the theories have gotten so out of hand because of that 11 year gap between ASOS and ADWD. People read and discussed the actually good theories so much, over such a long time, that they became accepted widely as essentially "fact" - R+L=J is one of those, and rightfully so. But because people are people, this wide consensus prompted attempts at finding new theories - but without new books, all people could do was just find increasingly less likely interpretations of the existing books. So now, for example, someone claiming that Dany was raised in Dorne and is not a Targaryen sounds really insightful and FRESH, but if you just take a step back and read the actual books (in a non-autistic way, where you read the words on the page but also consider the story as a whole), that person is just wrong. What books are they reading?

It's like they've convinced themselves that GRRM writes with the sole purpose of making them solve his mysteries.

Like you said, Dany's character is already subversive and you'd wonder at the quality of the writing if everyone is someone else. And her journey is also intended to be the opposite to fAegons: he will struggle proving he's a real Targaryen (no one will doubt his conquering prowess and apparent fitness to rule), Dany struggles proving she's got what it takes to rule (no one doubts who she is). There's a delicate balance there in arming different characters with certain qualities, while also "burdening" them with less appealing ones, and then making them fight it out for the ultimate prize. What's the point if they have the same strengths and flaws? If it turns out that Dany is someone else (much like if it's somehow definitively proved fAegon is legitimate), it's like - what's the point? Other than having a cheap twist, just because you can. You'd surprise your readers, at the cost of the really strong character arcs you've spent 2 decades building.

:agree: 100%. And I admire those who have been in this fandom for years or even decades. The "three year summer" period between Harry Potter books 4 and 5 drove us up the wall. Cannot imagine what I would have done if I'd read GRRM back in 2001-2002 when my friend first told me to!

[Forever May]

It's going to suck if Dany ever takes the Red Keep. She will paint every door in the citadel bright red and fill the gardens with lemon trees. Oh and stack the Iron Throne with a hundred pillows.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

It's going to suck if Dany ever takes the Red Keep. She will paint every door in the citadel bright red and fill the gardens with lemon trees. Oh and stack the Iron Throne with a hundred pillows.

Very good! It's her version of Robert's decline after winning the throne...

But also a very good question - will she actually be any less of a foreigner in King's Landing than in Meereen? Sure, there are no slaves in Westeros, but she was raised in the Free Cities before going off with the Dothraki and then to Slaver's Bay. All she has of Westeros is what Viserys taught her, and now Jorah and Barry.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Double

[sarah.jenice]

The Sealord of Braavos has a FREAKING DINOSAUR in his menagerie. If he can have a FREAKING DINOUSAUR he can have a lemontree.

Ha ha! Great point.

The tree could have easily been in a pot, and there must be fresh water in Braavos if people are surviving and all.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Ha ha! Great point.

The tree could have easily been in a pot, and there must be fresh water in Braavos if people are surviving and all.

They have the big aqueduct ("sweetwater river") which the commoners would only use for drinking, but the rich keyholders for watering their exotic gardens too.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

I'm also wildly curious to know how a staunch Targaryen loyalist ended up with friends in Braavos willing to harbor them as exiles. Remember Tycho Nestoris: Braavosi do not joke of dragons. If they did initially flee to Braavos, it was most certainly prearranged by someone else with those connections.

Tycho Nestoris is one man, he is not Braavos. There is no history of universally anti-Targaryen sentiment in Braavos, at least amongst those in power. Just a few examples of relations between Braavos and the Targaryens/Iron Throne:

• Prior to Aegon's Conquest, Aegon and Braavos both fought on the same side against Volantis at the end of the Century of Blood

During Aegon's Conquest, a dozen Braavosi warships joined with the Arryn fleet to defeat the Targaryen fleet near Gulltown

Following the Conquest, a Braavosi fleet was hired by the Starks on behalf of the Iron Throne which ended the short reign of Queen Marla Sunderland of the Three Sisters

Leana Velaryon, herself a dragon rider, was betrothed to the son of the Sealord of Braavos (the Sealord died before they were to wed and the son turned into a loser before being killed by Daemon)

Daeron I had intended to wed a sister of the Sealord of Braavos before his death

Aegon IV was sent as an envoy to Braavos by Baelor the Blessed, conducting a prolonged affair with the Black Pearl of Braavos

The Iron Bank of Braavos had no problem doing business with the Iron Throne (the organization that Tycho Nestoris represents, in fact) during the reign of Daeron II

Aerys II at one point had a rather fleeting and superficial plan to build a great fleet to bring down Braavos after a dispute with the Iron Bank regarding money that had been leant to his father Jaehaerys II (the dispute was later settled peaceably)

While many of these events followed the death of the dragons (as did Viserys and Daenerys's exile, for that matter), the Braavosi were willing to work with the Targaryens even when they had dragons. The history suggests a dynamic relationship related more to whatever issue was at hand than any underlying hatred of the Targaryens (or even the dragons). This is very different from Braavos's relationship with, say, Volantis, as the two are seemingly inherently at odds because of the slave trade's importance to Volantis and Braavos's staunch anti-slavery sentiments.

[MyLittleFinger]

Didn't Doran have to send Oberyn away to Essos after the rumours leaked about him trying to raise an army to put Viserys on the Throne? Didn't he sign the marriage pact? Didn't he sign it with Willem Darry? Didn't Willem Darry flee Dragonstone across the Narrow Sea to avoid Stannis Baratheon's fleet from capturing them? Didn't the Sealord of Bravos sign as witness to the deal? Isn't the Sealord of Bravos the ruler of Bravos? Isn't the ruler of Bravos in Bravos? Isn't Bravos in Essos?

What I'm getting at is that the House with the Red Door was on the Iron Islands.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Didn't Doran have to send Oberyn away to Essos after the rumours leaked about him trying to raise an army to put Viserys on the Throne? Didn't he sign the marriage pact? Didn't he sign it with Willem Darry? Didn't Willem Darry flee Dragonstone across the Narrow Sea to avoid Stannis Baratheon's fleet from capturing them? Didn't the Sealord of Bravos sign as witness to the deal? Isn't the Sealord of Bravos the ruler of Bravos? Isn't the ruler of Bravos in Bravos? Isn't Bravos in Essos?

What I'm getting at is that the House with the Red Door was on the Iron Islands.

Oberyn's "exile" was far before that. When he was 16 (so around 273 or 274) he was caught in bed with Edgar Yronwood's paramour and ended up wounding Yronwood in a duel, after which the wound festered and Yronwood died. There were rumors that Oberyn had poisoned his blade and Oberyn went into "exile" after that. After Elia's murder, Oberyn rarely (rarely, not never) left Dorne. Oberyn trying to raise Dorne for Viserys was dealt with by Jon Arryn.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

What I'm getting at is that the House with the Red Door was on the Iron Islands.

Oberyn's "exile" was far before that.

Regardless, the Iron Islands have a similar climate to Braavos, so the 'House With A Red Door Being Inside A Climate Controlled Biodome' theory would be equally valid there.

[TallTyrion]

Regardless, the Iron Islands have a similar climate to Braavos, so the 'House With A Red Door Being Inside A Climate Controlled Biodome' theory would be equally valid there.

Do you seriously still not understand that single tree can easily be grown outside its ideal climate?

Once again, I grew up in Canada my grandmother had a small potted orange tree. I have childhood memories of an orange tree, does that mean I must be from Florida?

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Do you seriously still not understand that single tree can easily be grown outside its ideal climate?

Once again, I grew up in Canada my grandmother had a small potted orange tree. I have childhood memories of an orange tree, does that mean I must be from Florida?

A big problem with growing plants outside of their ideal climate is winters and frosts. It just so happens that in the prologue of Clash, a ten year summer ends. That summer would've then started around the time that Dany was four years old. Outside of the North, there's at least a decade (and there was also likely a spring before summer) where there wouldn't be any particular risk of frosts or snows that could kill a plant growing outside its ideal climate.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Do you seriously still not understand that single tree can easily be grown outside its ideal climate?

Once again, I grew up in Canada my grandmother had a small potted orange tree. I have childhood memories of an orange tree, does that mean I must be from Florida?

Is it possible? Absolutely. Are you missing the point? Absolutely.

Do you seriously not understand that George has written it as an intentional discrepancy? If it weren't part a bigger mystery, he wouldn't still be talking about it five books later.