Daenerys big secret

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Is it possible? Absolutely. Are you missing the point? Absolutely.

Do you seriously not understand that George has written it as an intentional discrepancy? If it weren't part a bigger mystery, he wouldn't still be talking about it five books later.

I guess the letter "e" will feature prominently in the final battle, since GRRM uses it so often in the books?

That is one huge gigantic leap right there...

There may not be any "discrepancy" at all - you are assuming that there is, and then assuming it's intentional. There are many sensible explanations for the presence of an ornamental lemon tree in Brasvos; it's such an obvious point, GRRM probably wouldn't even bother mentioning that it was grown in a pot in a rich person's pleasure garden.

I know you're saying "there has to be something, because it's repeated", but it's such a non-mystery to begin with that it's not really even necessary to explain it, so it's repeated use isn't noted or relevant, and it's only the readers' over-thinking it that led to the "discrepancy" theories.

Just so many sensible explanations available, where the lemon tree thing is irrelevant to the big picture.

But I guess you know for sure that GRRM is planning something, good of him to be so forthright with you. :)

[TallTyrion]

Is it possible? Absolutely. Are you missing the point? Absolutely.

Do you seriously not understand that George has written it as an intentional discrepancy? If it weren't part a bigger mystery, he wouldn't still be talking about it five books later.

Except that it isn't a discrepancy, if it's possible for a lemon tree to grow in Bravos than Dany seeing one while there isn't a discrepancy.

The only way it would be a discrepancy would be if a lemon tree couldn't possibly grow in Bravos, which you literally just admitted could happen. So where is the discrepancy?

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Except that it isn't a discrepancy, if it's possible for a lemon tree to grow in Bravos than Dany seeing one while there isn't a discrepancy.

The only way it would be a discrepancy would be if a lemon tree couldn't possibly grow in Bravos, which you literally just admitted could happen. So where is the discrepancy?

I think you're mistaking 'technically possible' with 'at all likely.'

It's technically possible that Jon is Ned's bastard, that Tyrion is Tywin's son, and that Coldhands found some sows. If, however, you think about it and use some sense, an honorable men probably wouldn't father a bastard, two golden-haired parents probably wouldn't make a silver-haired son, livestock probably wouldn't be wandering around a frozen wasteland, and a subtropical tree probably wouldn't be Braavos.

Yes, it's technically possible that the lemon tree is in Braavos. In the same way it's technically possible Hot Pie is a secret Targ.

[TallTyrion]

I think you're mistaking 'technically possible' with 'at all likely.'

It's technically possible that Jon is Ned's bastard, that Tyrion is Tywin's son, and that Coldhands found some sows. If, however, you think about it and use some sense, an honorable men probably wouldn't father a bastard, two golden-haired parents probably wouldn't make a silver-haired son, livestock probably wouldn't be wandering around a frozen wasteland, and a subtropical tree probably wouldn't be Braavos.

Yes, it's technically possible that the lemon tree is in Braavos. In the same way it's technically possible Hot Pie is a secret Targ.

What is so unlikely about a rich person having a tree in their garden, especially in a world where summers last for years?

To equate that with the likelihood that Hot Pie is a secret Targ is ridiculous. You're whole argument is contingent on a lemon tree growing in Bravos being a discrepancy. Well it isn't because growing a lemon tree there wouldn't be hard to do at all, so your argument fails from the start.

Also Tyrion is Tywin's son but that's not really relevant to this discussion.

[ummester]

GRRM has indeed planted too many trees in his literal universe :D

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

You're whole argument is contingent on a lemon tree growing in Bravos being a discrepancy. Well it isn't because growing a lemon tree there wouldn't be hard to do at all, so your argument fails from the start.

I am a patient man, so for your benefit here is once again the TWOW excerpt in which George specifically tells us that citrus fruit is not found in Braavos.

“Seven hells, this place is damp,” she heard her guard complain. “I’m chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?”

“Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis,” the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. “I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?”

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I am a patient man, so for your benefit here is once again the TWOW excerpt in which George specifically tells us that citrus fruit is not found in Braavos.

“Seven hells, this place is damp,” she heard her guard complain. “I’m chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?”

“Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis,” the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. “I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?”

That's weak evidence.

The national flower of my country is called Cantuta. I challenge you to find it in my city. You wouldn't. It doesn't grow where I live. Does that mean it doesn't grow in the country?

The only thing implied in that paragraph is that lemon trees and similar doesn't grow wildly in Braavos. No one is saying the lemon tree is native to that region. Plants and trees can grow in climates they don't belong. Humans have been doing that for centuries.

[jet199]

That's weak evidence.

The national flower of my country is called Cantuta. I challenge you to find it in my city. You wouldn't. It doesn't grow where I live. Does that mean it doesn't grow in the country?

The only thing implied in that paragraph is that lemon trees and similar doesn't grow wildly in Braavos. No one is saying the lemon tree is native to that region. Plants and trees can grow in climates they don't belong. Humans have been doing that for centuries.

No, the thing implied by that paragraph is that GRRM wants to highlight the fact that there are no lemon trees in Braavos. You are trying to explain a fictional, fantasy place like it is a real world location. If GRRM says there are no lemon trees in Braavos then there aren't any, no matter the climate or how people do their gardening.

Also I don't know why people who have a problem with the relevance of this discrepancy being discussed are quite happy to place young Dany in the sealord's place, something which there is no evidence for at all.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

That's weak evidence.

Your personal anecdotes are irrelevant. Whether it's technically possible is irrelevant. First George writes there's a lemon tree in Braavos, then he writes there aren't any lemons in Braavos. That's the evidence George gave us. What is so difficult about this?

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

I am a patient man, so for your benefit here is once again the TWOW excerpt in which George specifically tells us that citrus fruit is not found in Braavos.

“Seven hells, this place is damp,” she heard her guard complain. “I’m chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?”

“Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis,” the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. “I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?”

GRRM has elaborated, at length, about the importance of the unreliability of his narrators - but here you're saying a conversation overheard by a narrator is gospel evidence?

Further, consider what the older soldier was refuting:

(1) are there citrus trees, hot peppers, warm nights, naked girls?

(2) no, that's further south.

(3) the end.

The conversation is broadly about Braavos not being a warm tropical paradise that the Free Cities are thought to be. It isn't, and we knew this from Arya's chapters already. From those chapters you could have already concluded that it's extremely unlikely that you'd see lots of trees of any kind - which is precisely why the wealthy might show off with exotic trees in their garden, and more importantly why a garden with a precious lemon tree would have left a huge impression on a little girl looking for a home.

You say this is "proof" lemon trees can't grow in Braavos. It's only saying Braavos is not generally well suited to grow citrus trees. But this is in the context of whether or not Braavos is a tropical paradise the way the younger guy thought it was - it's not, and that's refuted. You want to drag this into a meticulously planned denial of the POSSIBILITY of a lemon tree. Weak.

It might be "proof" that Lys stays nice and warm even in winter (while KL and Braavos do not), which could be relevant later in the story. But that's it.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

GRRM has elaborated, at length, about the importance of the (1)unreliability of his narrators - but here you're saying a conversation overheard by a narrator (2)is gospel evidence?

Further, consider what the older soldier was refuting:

(1) are there citrus trees, hot peppers, warm nights, naked girls?

(2) no, that's further south.

(3) the end.

The conversation is broadly about Braavos not being a warm tropical paradise that the Free Cities are thought to be. It isn't, and we knew this from Arya's chapters already. From those chapters you could have already concluded that it's extremely unlikely that you'd see lots of trees of any kind - which is precisely why the wealthy might show off with exotic trees in their garden, and more importantly why a garden with a precious lemon tree would have left a huge impression on a little girl looking for a home.

You say this is (3)"proof" lemon trees can't grow in Braavos. It's only saying Braavos is not generally well suited to grow citrus trees. But this is in the context of whether or not Braavos is a tropical paradise the way the younger guy thought it was - it's not, and that's refuted. You want to drag this into a meticulously planned denial of the (3 once again) POSSIBILITY of a lemon tree. Weak.

It might be "proof" that Lys stays nice and warm even in winter (while KL and Braavos do not), which could be relevant later in the story. But that's it.

Are you paying any attention whatsoever?

(1) The unreliability of narrators is why I can dare to say the lemon tree isn't in Braavos. If Dany's POV were gospel this theory would have never been.

(2) I never said it was gospel, but it is definitely common knowledge. However, the difference is irrelevant because...

(3) I've said several times it's technically possible to grow lemon trees in Braavos if one has a greenhouse. In this particular case It would need to be a greenhouse so large that a house could fit inside it and the residents don't even recall the glass part, so essentially a climate controlled bio-dome. But this is also irrelevant because...

George wrote there was a lemon tree in Braavos, and then he wrote that there are no lemons in Braavos. Whether your grandma can grow lemons in Canada has absolutely jack sh*t to do with it. Whether it's technically possible to grow lemons with the right equipment is missing the point. This is George's world, and he created a deliberate inconsistency.

If you really think that an inconsistency spanning 6 books (so far) will be resolved to be 'The Sealord has a greenhouse!' then you are seriously underestimating George. He has not spent the past 20 years weaving together hints for a mystery that nobody will give a sh*t about.

[joluoto2]

Is it possible? Absolutely. Are you missing the point? Absolutely.

Do you seriously not understand that George has written it as an intentional discrepancy? If it weren't part a bigger mystery, he wouldn't still be talking about it five books later.

Yes, and the bigger mystery will take us to the Sea Lord and Braavosi interests in Westeros. Why was the former Sealord getting himself involved? Why is Illyrio involved? Why is Westeros such an interesting place for rich Essosi? That's the mystery that need to be solved.

[TallTyrion]

I am a patient man, so for your benefit here is once again the TWOW excerpt in which George specifically tells us that citrus fruit is not found in Braavos.

“Seven hells, this place is damp,” she heard her guard complain. “I’m chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?”

“Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis,” the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. “I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?”

Actual context of that conversation: One guard complains about the temperature of Bravos in the Winter, and asks where all the naked girls and tropical stuff is. Other guard replies that it's further south.

In no way by any reading of that paragraph does it say there are no lemon trees in Bravos. Guard one: "Where are the naked girls and tropical stuff" guard two: "further south." That's all it says. The second guard doesn't even mention trees.

You can say citrus fruit doesn't grow in Canada and in general you would be correct, but that doesn't mean people can't grow single trees in gardens. For that statement to be at all relevant the guard would need to know the contents of every citizens garden. I suppose there isn't a single hot pepper or belly dancer in the whole city then either.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

I have seen homes in the northern states in the US that have Palm Trees. Seriously. They do. They die every winter but every spring they buy new for their pool. These people are not Rich but this is what they choose to spend their money on.

How is it hard to comprehend that a rich Braavosi Sealord would pay to have someone bring in a lemon tree every spring? I mean the weird guy has FRICKIN' DINOSAURS!!

[JonSnow4President]

I have seen homes in the northern states in the US that have Palm Trees. Seriously. They do. They die every winter but every spring they buy new for their pool. These people are not Rich but this is what they choose to spend their money on.

How is it hard to comprehend that a rich Braavosi Sealord would pay to have someone bring in a lemon tree every spring? I mean the weird guy has FRICKIN' DINOSAURS!!

FRICKIN' DINOSAURS!!!

[LordStoneheart]

this conversation looks spent so I might as well say to JCRB... what has thou wrought? So many moving avatars now. :P

[JonCon's Red Beard]

this conversation looks spent so I might as well say to JCRB... what has thou wrought? So many moving avatars now. :P

#muahahaha.

[JonSnow4President]

this conversation looks spent so I might as well say to JCRB... what has thou wrought? So many moving avatars now. :P

If that's in reference to mine, that's actually another creation of hers (link in her sig: House Stargaryen Sigil) I don't think I've seen an animated one she didn't do. For she is the master of all things animated. :bowdown: :bowdown:

[LordStoneheart]

Not just yours, but others. She's quite the trendsetter. :)

[JonSnow4President]

Not just yours, but others. She's quite the trendsetter. :)

Hmm, I'll have to pay more attention. Haven't noticed any non-JCRB ones.