Howland Reed must of used magic at the battle at the Tower of Joy.

[corbon]

Jojen doesn't show any strength of a Crannogman. He shows the strength of the First Men in that he has greensight. Despite Meera's statements about Howland breathing mud and the like, there is no evidence that he has some magic ability to overcome another man. To even entertain the notion that Howland used magic to beat Dayne is silly because there is no evidence that he possesses the magic to do so, let alone that he used it. If it's not worth fussing over you'd accept the illogical nature of considering magic was involve.

Looking back to Meera's tale of the little crannogman that could, we see some of the unusual attributes of Howland. Speaks to trees, breathes mud etc. The one that stands out is can change earth to water and water to earth. So there's the clue for the demise of Ser Dayne.

Howland made a water puddle for Dayne to slip in and Ned took that advantage.

I don't think HR has any actual magic at all.

Once there was a curious lad who lived in the Neck. He was small like all crannogmen, but brave and smart and strong as well. He grew up hunting and fishing and climbing trees, and learned all the magics of my people. ... he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear." ... The lad knew the magics of the crannogs, ... He passed beneath the Twins by night so the Freys would not attack him

He knew the 'magics' of his people, of the crannogs - I read that as stealth, camoflage and nature skills - nothing actually magical. It sure seems like magic to the uninitiated though.

Breath mud = what Arnie did in predator, or through a reed, or similar. Run on leaves is light feet through the woods, or even branch-running. Change earth to water and water to earth is just knowing what parts of swamp to trust as solid and what not, and similar skills. Talk to trees and weave words is good tracking skills and woods knowledge. Making castles appear and disappear is knowing how and where Greywater Watch on its floating island moves around. No actual magic involved anywhere, mostly likely, IMO (this is a low-magic series for the most part).

No doubt the Freys would claim that it could only be magic that would let a Crannogman pass the Twins without them being aware, but the truth is just stealth, and quiet, and night.

Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. "Did he have green dreams like Jojen?"

"No," said Meera,

He doesn't even have green dreams like Jojen. There is zero evidence he can warg.

Well we have the rumours, we have Ned growing sad while discussing the fight with Dayne, and we have the fact that Ned had Dayne's sword. Not entirely conclusive obviously, but the rumours were probably started by Stark soldiers or by the wetnurse that Ned brought to Winterfell for Jon who some theorize is Wylla as she would know about the fate of Arthur and Ashara both and would thus be able to start the rumours.

The rumour was amongst Lord Ned's young soldiers, long after the war. In other words, they don't know jack shit, but are obviously speculating based on what is known (Ned returned Dawn to the Daynes) and their love and respect for their Lord.

There is zero indication Wylla had any hand in the rumours. She's very long gone from winterfell.

Then Ned only gets sad in discussing the death of Arthur as if he had a hand in it,

Or, as if he was sad about the passing of a legend that he greatly respected, and his direct or indirect hand in it. Yes, he may have had a direct hand in it. One of the 7 did. But there is no indication at all that it was Ned personally.

and finally how would he get his sword unless he killed him, and why would he bother to return it unless he's the one who killed the owner?

Its the single most legendary artifact in all of Westeros and intimately tied to a specific house for its entire history. Ned's the senior, nearly the sole, survivor. Of course he's going to take the sword, and given who he is, or course he's going to return it to the Daynes. Neither of those relate directly to his personally having given the death blow. He'd have done exactly the same thing if he found Dayne dead of disease in a brothel, no doubt.

All we know (in these terms) about HR is that he was a typical crannogman, with marsh skills not knightly skills. And that Ned would have died against Dayne without HR (which does indicate Ned was fighting Dayne, so greatly improves the likelihood of Ned killing him).

OTOH, HR would have been a 1 yr veteran by then, probably much better with conventional warfare tools than he was before, He could just as easily have 'stood in the line' with the others as have fought in his 'native' manner, or even stood aside, more or less. We just don't have any data to tell at this stage.

But that does not tell us that HR actively fought Dayne, or did any real or even 'crannogman-style' magic. A shouted warning, a thrown stone, a million possibilities exist that suffice.

As for those who advocate poison, note that the effects of the poisons on display amongst the Ironborn at Moat Cailin are medium-long term effect, not instant effects that make a difference during the same fight they are inflicted

[Alys Karstark]

...

The only thing we know for sure, is that at least Ned fought Dayne, and Howland intervened some way that allowed Ned to kill him. But we don't know if it was 7 on 1 at that point and Dayne simply cut through all 5 of their companions, or it was 2 on 2 with Ned vs Dayne and Howland vs Whent/Hightower before it became 2 on 1. ...

As Jaime has stated in ASoS, Ser Arthur Dayne was skillfully demonstrating his "Slay all five of you with his left hand while taking a piss with the right" trick. Howland Reed was quick enough to notice what was happening and approached Ser Arthur Dayne from the right and frogged him.

[markg171]

I don't think HR has any actual magic at all.

Once there was a curious lad who lived in the Neck. He was small like all crannogmen, but brave and smart and strong as well. He grew up hunting and fishing and climbing trees, and learned all the magics of my people. ... he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear." ... The lad knew the magics of the crannogs, ... He passed beneath the Twins by night so the Freys would not attack him

He knew the 'magics' of his people, of the crannogs - I read that as stealth, camoflage and nature skills - nothing actually magical. It sure seems like magic to the uninitiated though.

Breath mud = what Arnie did in predator, or through a reed, or similar. Run on leaves is light feet through the woods, or even branch-running. Change earth to water and water to earth is just knowing what parts of swamp to trust as solid and what not, and similar skills. Talk to trees and weave words is good tracking skills and woods knowledge. Making castles appear and disappear is knowing how and where Greywater Watch on its floating island moves around. No actual magic involved anywhere, mostly likely, IMO (this is a low-magic series for the most part).

No doubt the Freys would claim that it could only be magic that would let a Crannogman pass the Twins without them being aware, but the truth is just stealth, and quiet, and night.

Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. "Did he have green dreams like Jojen?"

"No," said Meera,

He doesn't even have green dreams like Jojen. There is zero evidence he can warg.

The rumour was amongst Lord Ned's young soldiers, long after the war. In other words, they don't know jack shit, but are obviously speculating based on what is known (Ned returned Dawn to the Daynes) and their love and respect for their Lord.

There is zero indication Wylla had any hand in the rumours. She's very long gone from winterfell.

Or, as if he was sad about the passing of a legend that he greatly respected, and his direct or indirect hand in it. Yes, he may have had a direct hand in it. One of the 7 did. But there is no indication at all that it was Ned personally.

Its the single most legendary artifact in all of Westeros and intimately tied to a specific house for its entire history. Ned's the senior, nearly the sole, survivor. Of course he's going to take the sword, and given who he is, or course he's going to return it to the Daynes. Neither of those relate directly to his personally having given the death blow. He'd have done exactly the same thing if he found Dayne dead of disease in a brothel, no doubt.

All we know (in these terms) about HR is that he was a typical crannogman, with marsh skills not knightly skills. And that Ned would have died against Dayne without HR (which does indicate Ned was fighting Dayne, so greatly improves the likelihood of Ned killing him).

OTOH, HR would have been a 1 yr veteran by then, probably much better with conventional warfare tools than he was before, He could just as easily have 'stood in the line' with the others as have fought in his 'native' manner, or even stood aside, more or less. We just don't have any data to tell at this stage.

But that does not tell us that HR actively fought Dayne, or did any real or even 'crannogman-style' magic. A shouted warning, a thrown stone, a million possibilities exist that suffice.

As for those who advocate poison, note that the effects of the poisons on display amongst the Ironborn at Moat Cailin are medium-long term effect, not instant effects that make a difference during the same fight they are inflicted

It's not amongst Ned's young soldiers years after the fact.

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child’s needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.

The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.” She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Young lord. This cannot be years afterwards if Ned is called the young lord as that's what he was after the war. The rumours are also happening right when Catelyn comes home from the war. So the rumours were immediate, not years after the war.

And the wetnurse is still at Winterfell when Catelyn heard these rumours. So Wylla would have certainly been capable of starting the rumours, if she was the wetnurse. We know it certainly wasn't Ned who started them, and we know the rumours stopped after Ned found out who started them. And who do we not have at Winterfell? Wylla, who Edric Dayne tells us is back at Starfall.

[Lord Sapna]

Looking back to Meera's tale of the little crannogman that could, we see some of the unusual attributes of Howland. Speaks to trees, breathes mud etc. The one that stands out is can change earth to water and water to earth. So there's the clue for the demise of Ser Dayne.

Howland made a water puddle for Dayne to slip in and Ned took that advantage.

The worlds greatest warrior slipped in a fucking puddle and died! Yeesh! Maybe howland should have thrown a banana skin.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The worlds greatest warrior slipped in a fucking puddle and died! Yeesh! Maybe howland should have thrown a banana skin.

:lol:

If Howard had played some trick, Ned would disapprove it. Because Ned disapproves stuff that aren't HONOURABLE. So, no puddle, not magic frog, no net, no magic...

[Fitzochris01]

Jojen doesn't show any strength of a Crannogman. He shows the strength of the First Men in that he has greensight. Despite Meera's statements about Howland breathing mud and the like, there is no evidence that he has some magic ability to overcome another man. To even entertain the notion that Howland used magic to beat Dayne is silly because there is no evidence that he possesses the magic to do so, let alone that he used it. If it's not worth fussing over you'd accept the illogical nature of considering magic was involve.

It's a work of fiction. Nothing is illogical. Honestly, the level of seriousness and tone you are applying to your posts is a little chucklesome.

[PrinceHenryris]

Dawn & Ice are both greatswords...so approximately the same size. Plus Valyrian Steel is lighter than castle forged steel.

We don't have a clue about Dawn. Only small tidbits.

Dawn isn't castle-forged steel. Dawn's supposedly forged from a meteor, other than that, we don't know anything about its composition. Dawn might not even be steel.

[Bryanfury]

It's a work of fiction. Nothing is illogical. Honestly, the level of seriousness and tone you are applying to your posts is a little chucklesome.

:rolleyes: don't be so upset that I don't believe your fanfiction

[corbon]

It's not amongst Ned's young soldiers years after the fact.

Young lord. This cannot be years afterwards if Ned is called the young lord as that's what he was after the war. The rumours are also happening right when Catelyn comes home from the war. So the rumours were immediate, not years after the war.

And the wetnurse is still at Winterfell when Catelyn heard these rumours. So Wylla would have certainly been capable of starting the rumours, if she was the wetnurse. We know it certainly wasn't Ned who started them, and we know the rumours stopped after Ned found out who started them. And who do we not have at Winterfell? Wylla, who Edric Dayne tells us is back at Starfall.

You are quite right about the timing, my mistake. I thought that it was Bran that had heard the rumour from the soldiers, my apologies.

However, there is still no indication that Wylla had any part of the rumours. The Soldiers can make those themselves just from Ned having the sword (and it is still amongst Ned's soldiers who weren't there after the fact, just not years. They still didn't know shit and still have an identifiable 'reasoning' to base the rumours creation on (without need of Wylla).

And the rumours that stopped were the rumours about Ashara, no others. Ned killed them because they lead toward questions about Jon, which is danger. Soldiers rumouring about Ned killing Dayne might be embarrassing and/or saddening for Ned, but are not dangerous.

[Fitzochris01]

Agreed. Let's shut down the entire forum. ;)

Close the door on your way out.

[Fitzochris01]

:rolleyes: don't be so upset that I don't believe your fanfiction

But you miss my point entirely. It is you that is upset, not me. I'm happy to accept whatever outcome is eventually revealed - magic or no.

Your fanfiction line is lost on me, sorry. If anything, I'm advocating whatever GRRM decides happened at the Tower of Joy, rather than shoehorning my own theories into the situation and calling everybody else's 'illogical'.

I'll say again, Ice and Fire is a work of fiction. The level of scrutiny some people apply to various elements of the book, as if it were real-world physics, is chucklesome.

Debating what things mean - such as prophecies and the like - is fine, I enjoy that, but to dissect how a particular character may or may not have taken down another character in this way is taking things a bit far.

Whatever GRRM decides happened at that Tower is what will have happened, no matter what we think or don't think.

[Bryanfury]

What GRRM decided is largely discernible theough interpretation of the story. What you decided has no foundation in the text. Deal wth it.

[Fitzochris01]

What GRRM decided is largely discernible theough interpretation of the story. What you decided has no foundation in the text. Deal wth it.

Again, one final time, in the hope of penetrating your belligerence, I haven't decided anything. I am as open to Howland profiting with net and spear as I am him doing so via magic or some other bogman trick.

Now, you deal with it and hurry along to school.

[Bryanfury]

You could be open to Howland growing four thousand arms for all I care, you'd still be wrong. Howland using magic is not supported by the text. I'll be sure to teach my students critical thought, that important life skill you appear to be severely lacking in.

[Fitzochris01]

You could be open to Howland growing four thousand arms for all I care, you'd still be wrong. Howland using magic is not supported by the text. I'll be sure to teach my students critical thought, that important life skill you appear to be severely lacking in.

You're an oddity and no mistake.

It is a work of fantasy fiction. A lot of things happen that are not supported elsewhere in the text. I roll with it. Do you know why? Because I read for enjoyment, for escapism. I don't treat every book or film I watch like some bloody university assignment.

You take the text as seriously as you want and I'll enjoy it my way. I tell you what though, I'll laugh my backside off if it is revealed Howland used a trick or magic at the Tower of Joy. I kind of hope that is the case now, just because I know it would piss on your chips.

[jaimereborn]

is the catfight over yet so we can return to the OP?

[Fitzochris01]

The 'catfight' is relevant to the OP. Batter on my friend, what have you to add?

[Bryanfury]

You're an oddity and no mistake.

At least I don't write horrible fanfiction on a forum while crying about how other people apparently are too serious about a story to swallow it

[Chilli]

If Howard had played some trick, Ned would disapprove it. Because Ned disapproves stuff that aren't HONOURABLE. So, no puddle, not magic frog, no net, no magic...

That's what I'm thinking too.

It would have been more logical for someone like Ned if they had come to an agreement. Or that he would have killed him in an honourable way.

Or maybe Ned regretted later what happened after hearing Lyanna's story.

[Fitzochris01]

At least I don't write horrible fanfiction on a forum while crying about how other people apparently are too serious about a story to swallow it

You really are losing credibility.

Where have I written 'fanfiction'? Do you know the definition of the term? What do I want people to 'swallow' (no rude jokes please)?

I think I've said it too many times, but here we go again, I am open to whatever GRRM decides happened at the Tower of Joy. How is that fanfiction? Please explain.